Inner Loop - CBD, Downtown, East Bank, Germantown, Gulch, Rutledge

[Nashville Cliff]

So...someone explain to me what a pumping station does.

 

It pumps. 

[NashRugger]

I wouldn't say that. We can engineer a lot of things that would protect us from a lot of different threats, but the risk benefit equation doesn't work out.

What's more important? A mass transit project from Centennial Park to 5 Points (or downtown to the airport) or flood protection? We could have either one for roughly the same price.

I'm undecided on this at this point, but I don't fall into the camp that says protect against a threat that is unlikely to hit us in the 100 years at any cost.

Read, the above post, $100mil versus $2bil, yeah........I'll leave it at that.

 

Also, until the state pulls its head out of its arse, good luck with significant mass transit implementation.

[satalac]

You probably were expecting Ft. Smith, which is a dump.

Been there. Watched an old man walk outside of a restaurant and piss on an electrical box. I decided it was time to continue our trip to New Mexico at that point.

[Hey_Hey]

Read, the above post, $100mil versus $2bil, yeah........I'll leave it at that.

 

Also, until the state pulls its head out of its arse, good luck with significant mass transit implementation.

 

You definitely have a point on the transit issue, but there are lots of potential uses for the $100 million. 

 

I think it's worth mentioning that the $2 billion loss was for all of Nashville, not just downtown. The way I read this, the wall will only protect the West Bank of downtown. It will not protect the east bank nor any of the residential neighborhoods that were damaged.  I don't know what the breakdown of the damage was for downtown vs the rest of Nashville, but even if downtown made up half of total losses that does change the cost:benefit ratio significantly.  

 

The other thing that we do not know is what type of smaller flood this will prevent.  It could be that this will also protect against more frequent flooding that wouldn't cause the widespread damage but would cause minor damage and headaches. Protecting against only a 500 year flood is one thing, but if it keeps portions of downtown from being shut down or damaged from a flood that might occur every 20 years is totally different. 

[NashRugger]

Me thinks this is just the first of many levees coming, but also significant infrastructure improvements in terms of storm water mitigation, which is a big problem downtown and in other parts of the city. Hopefully this is the start of some capital improvements.

Side note, it annoys the piss out of me when people toss around the "10, 20, 500, and 1,000 year" flood numbers because they're simple equations that can be blown up. Take the Great 1927 Mississippi River Flood, that was supposed to be a once in a lifetime event and the record for several lower basin locations. 2011, some of those same areas were eclipsed by that event, so the year estimation is just nonsense to myself, as a forecaster.

[FromParkAveToTN]

Anybody who is against this plan needs their back snapped. As I look out of my office windows from the AT&T building, I see all the massive projects/money being pumped into downtown and this project is necessary.

[japan]

The pumping stations is strictly for after flood use to allow them to get the water that has flooded the city out to the river after the river has subsided.  

[UTgrad09]

Anybody who is against this plan needs their back snapped. As I look out of my office windows from the AT&T building, I see all the massive projects/money being pumped into downtown and this project is necessary.

 

I know you're kidding, but let's tone it down a hair.

[rookzie]

Permit pulled for new build at 1723 Heiman - they purchased the lot and home on it for over 60k and permit was pulled for 173k build... so this may list in the high 200s.

 

That sounds like around there down from St. Vincent dePaul, where my siblings went to school during the '60s and early-mid '70s.  Haven't been past there in decades, except for a funeral or two.

-==-

[rookzie]

So...someone explain to me what a pumping station does.

 

It pumps Diesel or gas, depending on your Mercedes model.

 

(sorry, but I just had to be crazy this time)

 

Pumping station (some uses)

 stationary large-capacity apparatus used to transfer very large amounts of liquids

  water to canals

  water to replete reservoirs

   (e.g. 8th ave S., 38th Ave. N, west of Felicia)

  water to replete aerial water towers

  sewage to processing sites

  drainage of low-lying land

  sewage to processing sites

 

Pumping stations are almost always housed in permanent structures and usually have some auto-starting back-up, emergency electric generator with instant change-over/transfer of power from the electric grid source to the generator source.

-==-

Edited February 26, 2015 by rookzie

[titanhog]

So, the pumping station is only for pumping the flood water back into the river?  But...if we have the flood wall and that keeps the water from flooding downtown, why would we need the pumping station?  Wouldn't the wall make the station obsolete?

[Guest]

By your logic we should require all buildings to be built to Tokyo or San Francisco tolerances... because hey, we may get an earthquake.

https://www.disastersafety.org/building_codes/the-importance-of-strong-building-codes-in-earthquake-prone-states/

It did not cost the city 2 Billion dollars... I know I did not pay 2 billion dollars...If there was a 2BIL cost (I would like to see that in detail) it was covered by and large via insurance.

Is there going to be a corresponding $100,000,000 discount to the property insurance premiums for the residents in Nashville? 

 

Again we are not talking about an imminent threat. 

 

I just love the notion that we should be cutting corners and going the budget route on a project designed to protect the city from the same natural disaster that just cost the city $2 billion (that's $2,000,000,000 or TWENTY TIMES the cost of this project) to recover from only three years prior.  In other words, in monetary terms, the city just paid for twenty of these projects already due explicitly to the fact that we DID NOT invest in a project like this sooner, and yet somehow, there are still people complaining about the cost, up in arms about making that total twenty-one even if it meant it would never happen again.  Seriously, this is the literal physical well-being of the city we're talking about here.  I realize that there is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to be conducted when it comes to large scale projects like this, but I would think that if there was anything the bargain basement budget crowd would consider worthy of funding, it would be safeguarding the city from natural disaster.  Maybe it's just me, but that's not something I think pennies should be pinched over. 

The water will have to go somewhere.... down river or across the East Bank...

So, the pumping station is only for pumping the flood water back into the river?  But...if we have the flood wall and that keeps the water from flooding downtown, why would we need the pumping station?  Wouldn't the wall make the station obsolete?

[mundiejc]

That sounds like around there down from St. Vincent dePaul, where my siblings went to school during the '60s and early-mid '70s.  Haven't been past there in decades, except for a funeral or two.

-==-

 

 

 

It is - almost across the street. There's a quasi renovation right next to it 3/1 bungalow. was for sale for 140k and went under contract like 3 days later. The activity on the other side of the interstate seems to be along Heiman, Knowles, Underwood, and then East of 14th Ave N back over towards HBV. 

 

A nice renovation at 21st and Underwood that was priced at 299,900 (it is 2600 sq ft) just went under contract yesterday as well.

 

I have a property on 11th Ave N that I got a contract on premarket, 1832 11th Ave N, its a fixer upper and we got contract at ask. Even with the contingency I've had multiple calls of people wanting to show it. There is a strong desire for anything under 300k inside the Briley/440 loop right now.

[CenterHill]

So, the pumping station is only for pumping the flood water back into the river?  But...if we have the flood wall and that keeps the water from flooding downtown, why would we need the pumping station?  Wouldn't the wall make the station obsolete?

 

With the wall closed and high water on the river side, existing downtown storm sewers will back up and be unable to drain runoff from a significant rainfall.     Storm sewers operate on simple hydraulics and with water pushing back from the river, it will backup into downtown as it did in 2010.     The pumping stations will mechanically force water collecting in downtown storm sewers into the river.      

 

Where I grew up in Missouri at the foot of Mississippi River levees, the river level often rises higher than the town (but for the levees, the town would be inundated).     The only way to clear storm runoff out of the town is via a system of electric pumping stations along the levee border.    Same concept here.   

[MLBrumby]

I am astonished by the costs of this floodwall, although I saw the $65M tab for the pumps alone! I also recall that this floodwall was a part of the original plan revealed for the West Bank.  But I have a nagging question about the last flood (which has correctly been pointed out as having a 1/500 chance of occurring again each year).  And yes... there are many more buildings now where the flooding was at its worst downtown. 

 

So here's my question:  Has it been determined how much worse the flooding downtown was made by the US Army Corps of Engineers inability to control the floodgates of two dams upriver?  The rumors were that this was botched, but I don't recall any follow up to that story.  

[BnaBreaker]

By your logic we should require all buildings to be built to Tokyo or San Francisco tolerances... because hey, we may get an earthquake.

https://www.disastersafety.org/building_codes/the-importance-of-strong-building-codes-in-earthquake-prone-states/

It did not cost the city 2 Billion dollars... I know I did not pay 2 billion dollars...If there was a 2BIL cost (I would like to see that in detail) it was covered by and large via insurance.

Is there going to be a corresponding $100,000,000 discount to the property insurance premiums for the residents in Nashville? 

 

Again we are not talking about an imminent threat. 

 

The water will have to go somewhere.... down river or across the East Bank...

 

First of all, I read your earlier posts more thoroughly and I see that you did say that the wall should be built, so I give you credit for that.  I agree that if anything is built, it should be that.  I need to learn more about this pumping station myself. 

 

That being said, I guess I'm just confused as to why you're calling something that happened just three years ago "not an imminent threat."  I mean I guess it depends on one's definition of "imminent," but If Nashville were in a high risk area for devastating earthquakes like Tokyo and San Francisco, and had we just had a major earthquake three years ago that damaged half the buildings downtown, then yeah, I'd be of the opinion that we should adopt an earthquake safe building code.  Fortunately, Nashville is at relatively low risk of a damaging earthquake due to where it sits on the bedrock shelf, so in my opinion, there isn't really a comparison to be made there. 

 

And you're right that the water has to go somewhere, but I'd rather it fill up the Titans parking lot, or an industrial area, or shelby bottoms park, than fill up the streets and buildings of the area that is the economic engine of the city and the state. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by BnaBreaker

[rookzie]

First of all, I read your earlier posts more thoroughly and I see that you did say that the wall should be built, so I give you credit for that.  I agree that if anything is built, it should be that.  I need to learn more about this pumping station myself. 

 

That being said, I guess I'm just confused as to why you're calling something that happened just three years ago "not an imminent threat."  I mean I guess it depends on one's definition of "imminent," but If Nashville were in a high risk area for devastating earthquakes like Tokyo and San Francisco, and had we just had a major earthquake three years ago that damaged half the buildings downtown, then yeah, I'd be of the opinion that we should adopt an earthquake safe building code.  Fortunately, Nashville is at relatively low risk of a damaging earthquake due to where it sits on the bedrock shelf, so in my opinion, there isn't really a comparison to be made there. 

 

And you're right that the water has to go somewhere, but I'd rather it fill up the Titans parking lot, or an industrial area, or shelby bottoms park, than fill up the streets and buildings of the area that is the economic engine of the city and the state. 

 

The ill-fated Schermerhorn alone is testimony to that.

-==-

[Guest]

Look while I am good in math it has been quite some time since I took Statistics but even so I know how to read the ratios 1 in 100, 1 in 500, 1 in 1000...

Having a flood 2-years ago does NOT guarantee that we will not have another flood of that scale for the next 998 years.. It means that each year there is a 0.1% or 1/10th of 1% chance of a similar flood occurring in any given year. These type of odds are why Insurance companies and re-insurers make the bucks.

[HGMIII]

Unfortunately, Elizabeth Park and Bordeaux areas have had 2 construction crews held up by robbers this month, this time two workers had to be taken to the hospital for a project by 2200 15th Ave N 

 

http://www.wsmv.com/story/28210548/2-people-injured-in-north-nashville-shooting 

[nashvillwill]

So here's my question: Has it been determined how much worse the flooding downtown was made by the US Army Corps of Engineers inability to control the floodgates of two dams upriver? The rumors were that this was botched, but I don't recall any follow up to that story.

If I have heard correctly, the Corps was cleared of any wrong doing. And I don't ever remember hearing that there was an "inability to control the floodgates". I could be wrong, but if memory serves me, they were in complete control when they had the gates fully open. That's what made some people question their decision making. People see dam gates open during a flood and they instantly think someone is doing something wrong.

Personally, I side with the Corps of Engineers decision making. Sure, maybe they could have saved a few buildings, Opryland, and millions of dollars in property damage had they kept those dams closed beyond their design strength. But had they done so and a dam had breached, we would be counting the bodies, not the dollars. And It would have been an unimaginable number of bodies. Can you imagine what would happen if PP or Old H lake suddenly discharged at once into the Cumberland? Half of Nashville would be wiped off the map.

[rookzie]

If I have heard correctly, the Corps was cleared of any wrong doing. And I don't ever remember hearing that there was an "inability to control the floodgates". I could be wrong, but if memory serves me, they were in complete control when they had the gates fully open. That's what made some people question their decision making. People see dam gates open during a flood and they instantly think someone is doing something wrong.

Personally, I side with the Corps of Engineers decision making. Sure, maybe they could have saved a few buildings, Opryland, and millions of dollars in property damage had they kept those dams closed beyond their design strength. But had they done so and a dam had breached, we would be counting the bodies, not the dollars. And It would have been an unimaginable number of bodies. Can you imagine what would happen if PP or Old H lake suddenly discharged at once into the Cumberland? Half of Nashville would be wiped off the map.

 

I acquiesce at the decision of accountability, and I do feel that the Corp acted in earnest, as well as having made an informed choice of the lesser of 2 evils.  I don't think that the Corps should be fiscally responsible, even if no immunity were in place.  The only issue that I have is the communication snafu, even though that could have been a moot point at the point in time of the critical decision.

-==-

[HGMIII]

I follow lot sales, two new lots just listed for sale in HBV, both zoned R6

 

1027 Cheatham Place, $89,900 {sodEmoji.|} Lot Size: 68' x 116' 

1029 Cheatham Place, $69,900  {sodEmoji.|} Lot Size: 51' x 105' 

 

These list prices are below what other lots have been selling for, but they are smaller and in a less desirable location than the lot sales I saw in 12/2014.  

[NashRugger]

Here's the problem few understand, the only dam within the metro area built for flood control wasn't a single one on the Cumberland, it's Percy Priest on the Stones. The dams on the Cumberland were built for the Rivers & Harbors Act to open up the river to commerce. Old Hickory was within 1ft of being overtopped and not designed as such, so had it been overtopped, the disaster we know now would likely be ten fold higher. 

 

Honestly, what's another layer of protection? Folks pissed and moaned about the city not having done enough before and now folks balk at the price tag IN ORDER to protect a certain section of the city. I mean really, you can't have your cake and eat it all either, no damn way. I can guarantee you the federal gov't in chipping in a mighty amount for this project as well.

Edited February 26, 2015 by NashRugger

[ajs]

Me thinks this is just the first of many levees coming, but also significant infrastructure improvements in terms of storm water mitigation, which is a big problem downtown and in other parts of the city. Hopefully this is the start of some capital improvements.

Side note, it annoys the piss out of me when people toss around the "10, 20, 500, and 1,000 year" flood numbers because they're simple equations that can be blown up. Take the Great 1927 Mississippi River Flood, that was supposed to be a once in a lifetime event and the record for several lower basin locations. 2011, some of those same areas were eclipsed by that event, so the year estimation is just nonsense to myself, as a forecaster.

 

I don't think you can compare 1927 MS River levels to current, since the river is much more contained in its banks now.  The same amount of water will register much higher than before all those levees were built.

[NashRugger]

I realize that, but was using actual data and occurrence projections when I said that.