Greenville County Square redevelopment

[gman430]

3 minutes ago, GVLover said:

Most of these tenants tend to go towards malls here in the Carolina's, not downtown. Downtown Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, Winston, Columbia, and Charleston downtowns will actually be forced to catch up on the retail front if this tenant list is fully executed. 

Agreed. Only downtown Charleston comes close with this list. And remember this only part of phase 1. A lot of retailer and restaurant spots still left to fill. Hoping for Wahlburgers or Shake Shack in the future. 

[GVLover]

1 minute ago, gman430 said:

Agreed. Only downtown Charleston comes close with this list. And remember this only part of phase 1. A lot of retailer and restaurant spots still left to fill. Hoping for Wahlburgers or Shake Shack in the future. 

I was going to make an exception for Charleston and I think I will, but it's true for every other city on that list that there retail selection won't be able to compete with Downtown Greenville for the foreseeable future. I've never tried Wahlburgers, but Shake Shack has my heart and I alone will sustain them if no one else does.

[apaladin]

2 hours ago, GVLover said:

Most of these tenants tend to go towards malls here in the Carolina's, not downtown. Downtown Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro, Winston, Columbia, and Charleston downtowns will actually be forced to catch up on the retail front if this tenant list is fully executed. 

Agree, but isn’t this going to turn out to be a “mall” just close to downtown, not really downtown despite the name?

[NewlyUpstate]

3 hours ago, apaladin said:

Agree, but isn’t this going to turn out to be a “mall” just close to downtown, not really downtown despite the name?

If the pedestrian experience is solid along with the live and work components,  no it would be quite a bit different than a mall

[gman430]

A lot better than boring Magnolia Parking Lot Town Center, Shops at Gridlock, and Harambe Station. The tenant list here blows all of them out of the water. And at least this project is getting built unlike everything else downtown that seems to be stalled out. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by gman430

[distortedlogic]

9 hours ago, apaladin said:

Agree, but isn’t this going to turn out to be a “mall” just close to downtown, not really downtown despite the name?

I think this is unquestionably downtown; maybe not CBD, but definitely downtown; I mean it's surrounded by Falls Park, the Grand Bohemian, and the ball field. And functionally and aesthetically it won' t be a mall, so no.

I still wish the architecture were different; not so boxy and modern (suburban) but I don't get a say in that.

[gman430]

37 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

I think this is unquestionably downtown; maybe not CBD, but definitely downtown; I mean it's surrounded by Falls Park, the Grand Bohemian, and the ball field. And functionally and aesthetically it won' t be a mall, so no.

I still wish the architecture were different; not so boxy and modern (suburban) but I don't get a say in that.

This is correct. The City officially has the site listed as part of the West End of downtown but not the CBD: 

https://greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2756/Downtown-Welcome-Map-PDF

http://www.greenvillescbusiness.com/mydocuments/download.php?f=downtown_greenville_sc_central_business_district_map.pdf

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by gman430

[GvilleSC]

54 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

I think this is unquestionably downtown; maybe not CBD, but definitely downtown; I mean it's surrounded by Falls Park, the Grand Bohemian, and the ball field. And functionally and aesthetically it won' t be a mall, so no.

I still wish the architecture were different; not so boxy and modern (suburban) but I don't get a say in that.

I may be misinterpreting this, but I don't think we're all discussing the same thing here. I think @apaladin is ultimately referring to the potential for this development to feel too new, inauthentic, or set apart. For example, is one side of Howe Street going to feel completely disjointed from the other side? Is the proposed condo building at the traffic circle going to feel distinct (in a bad way) from the adjacent new construction that carries some sort of overall vibe? In those ways, it could feel like a mall in terms of being master developed. 

Atlantic Station in Atlanta doesn't feel authentic, and it feels like a distinct destination. It feels like a mall (or lifestyle center) of an elevated sort. Some of it is psychological and will greatly depend on signage and branding. Will people going to [insert tenant name here] say they're going downtown or to County Square for a night out? It will be interesting to watch. Ultimately, the City of Greenville should be the ones guiding signage and perhaps providing wayfinding in order to guarantee that it ties into the rest of downtown.   

Edited October 20, 2023 by GvilleSC

[btoy]

This is a merchandising plan so not all of these tenants are committed, these are not typically meant to be seen publicly.  Some of these tenants like Nike, might be waiting to see who else commits before they do so their space may correctly be reserved for them but they may be waiting to see who else commits.  I am pretty sure the version I have seen in the past had a few different names.

[distortedlogic]

1 hour ago, GvilleSC said:

I may be misinterpreting this, but I don't think we're all discussing the same thing here. I think @apaladin is ultimately referring to the potential for this development to feel too new, inauthentic, or set apart. For example, is one side of Howe Street going to feel completely disjointed from the other side? Is the proposed condo building at the traffic circle going to feel distinct (in a bad way) from the adjacent new construction that carries some sort of overall vibe? In those ways, it could feel like a mall in terms of being master developed. 

Atlantic Station in Atlanta doesn't feel authentic, and it feels like a distinct destination. It feels like a mall (or lifestyle center) of an elevated sort. Some of it is psychological and will greatly depend on signage and branding. Will people going to [insert tenant name here] say they're going downtown or to County Square for a night out? It will be interesting to watch. Ultimately, the City of Greenville should be the ones guiding signage and perhaps providing wayfinding in order to guarantee that it ties into the rest of downtown.   

So by that thinking is Heritage Green or the West End itself not part of DT? People often say "the restaurant is in the West End, or the library is in/on Heritage Green." I mean they are different nodes of the same downtown, each with their own feel; no?

51 minutes ago, btoy said:

This is a merchandising plan so not all of these tenants are committed, these are not typically meant to be seen publicly.  Some of these tenants like Nike, might be waiting to see who else commits before they do so their space may correctly be reserved for them but they may be waiting to see who else commits.  I am pretty sure the version I have seen in the past had a few different names.

Very important information to keep in mind!

[vistatiger]

58 minutes ago, btoy said:

This is a merchandising plan so not all of these tenants are committed, these are not typically meant to be seen publicly.  Some of these tenants like Nike, might be waiting to see who else commits before they do so their space may correctly be reserved for them but they may be waiting to see who else commits.  I am pretty sure the version I have seen in the past had a few different names.

I hope you have seen Crate and Barrel , Container Store and Target because none of those listed would pull me in other than those three and the cinema and Nike. 

Would LuluLemon actually leave that spot on Main St for there? They should stay where they are.

[GvilleSC]

13 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

So by that thinking is Heritage Green or the West End itself not part of DT? People often say "the restaurant is in the West End, or the library is in/on Heritage Green." I mean they are different nodes of the same downtown, each with their own feel; no?

Maybe this isn't clear: I absolutely consider County Square and all of those other areas you mention to be downtown. The distinction that is being drawn is how well this development is ultimately physically and psychologically connected and integrated into the fabric of our urban core. It should not feel like you're crossing a threshold onto the former County Square property. 

I don't hear people say "I'm going to the West End tonight," unless they're downtown residents and indicating which neighborhood they're going to. 

[gman430]

Jinya has been officially announced: 

Edited October 20, 2023 by gman430

[NewlyUpstate]

1 hour ago, GvilleSC said:

Maybe this isn't clear: I absolutely consider County Square and all of those other areas you mention to be downtown. The distinction that is being drawn is how well this development is ultimately physically and psychologically connected and integrated into the fabric of our urban core. It should not feel like you're crossing a threshold onto the former County Square property. 

I don't hear people say "I'm going to the West End tonight," unless they're downtown residents and indicating which neighborhood they're going to. 

For me, it helps that this side of town is seeing a lot of redevelopment already - Gather, Childrens Theater, Smoke on the Water building refresh, Spinx Market, Avant (if it ever gets built) -- these sort of things should make the County Square redevelopment not feel architecturally out of place and distinct.

I'm glad places like Pins and Agave were early announcements for tenants basically on the boundary line.  Those are great establishments to have on the border, rather than putting them right in the middle, which should help make this whole new development blend better into the existing downtown.  They're going to be what, like 100 yards away from Gather?

 

This all being said.. anyone aware of any case studies of cities with already existing extremely successful downtowns adding a large scale master planned development basically right adjacent to it?  Things like Atlantic Station in Atlanta are too far away and don't really compare.  The redevelopment in Charlotte South End is sorta close, but still a pretty distinct area.  Maybe the Seaport District in Boston?

Edited October 20, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[distortedlogic]

23 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

Maybe this isn't clear: I absolutely consider County Square and all of those other areas you mention to be downtown. The distinction that is being drawn is how well this development is ultimately physically and psychologically connected and integrated into the fabric of our urban core. It should not feel like you're crossing a threshold onto the former County Square property. 

I don't hear people say "I'm going to the West End tonight," unless they're downtown residents and indicating which neighborhood they're going to. 

Well I think physically it is automatic. The whole Augusta St/Ball field area is already DT as is the current university ridge developments; and this is right in between them.  I see this as filling in a gap DT rather than extending it. It's not like this is being done a mile away from everything else, it's right there. Psychologically; I mean who knows. Part of that will come from the physical and pragmatic nature of the development, but I think that will take care of itself. Maybe some current residents will think of it as the "old county square site" but most already consider it DT so it wouldn't matter. People who move after it develops won't know any different and it will just be part of DT to them all along. Interestingly with Heritage Green, almost everyone considers it DT , but actually does have a bit of a connection problem with the rest of DT but it doesn't keep it from being DT. This development is much more "in the thick of  DT"  than HG.

[gman430]

Tenants that are either at lease or fully leased which means they are definitely coming: 

 

Whole Foods Market

Fleming’s Steakhouse

Williams Sonoma

Pottery Barn 

The Salty Donut 

Jinya 

Fetch Park

Southern Tide 

Ben & Jerry’s 

Melty

The Perch

Fairway Social

Pins Mechanical

Hawkers

PBR

Sports & Social 

T Mobile

Sugar Polish Nail Bar

Palmetto Brewing Company

Agave Bandido

Everyone else is either at LOI or in negotiations. 

[btoy]

BTW, Fetch Park will be on the roof of a parking deck.  And PBR is Professional Bull Riding not the beer.  Still no clear what that means with regards to their use though.

[gman430]

5 minutes ago, btoy said:

BTW, Fetch Park will be on the roof of a parking deck.  And PBR is Professional Bull Riding not the beer.  Still no clear what that means with regards to their use though.

PBR proposed for here is the same one as the Battery in Atlanta I believe: 

https://liveatthebatteryatlanta.com/eat-and-drink/pbr-atlanta

Edited October 24, 2023 by gman430

[gman430]

https://www.postandcourier.com/greenville/business/greenville-county-square-development-retailers-lululemon-fetch-pub-william-sonoma/article_398cbf5c-71da-11ee-b1dd-5bc9a594cb64.html/?tpcc=gvlsocial&fbclid=IwAR3yKtSvisXECUSVmI4qe8_WbhCi-eJs1y6mOlAhMa83x4d6vkY5-9MnEWE_aem_Acb6fodntSslmWbU-LBsZnBMB2zHrHTBZEKiVcZO_ufG2N96mrFfY3nx4Ko051yp6F8&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

[GvilleSC]

I assume Lululemon will be abandoning their location at Falls Park? If so, that's a big blow to Main Street retail. 

[vistatiger]

4 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

I assume Lululemon will be abandoning their location at Falls Park? If so, that's a big blow to Main Street retail. 

Agreed! That's the one thing I don't like about Greenville that it's better national retail brands are  becoming so spread out in centers  between  DT, Haywood, GreenRidge, The Point. Magnolia Park and now  County Sq. It's getting very inconvenient not being able to shop the stores you prefer in one or two places.

Edited October 25, 2023 by vistatiger

[GvilleSC]

56 minutes ago, vistatiger said:

Agreed! That's the one thing I don't like about Greenville that it's better national retail brands are  becoming so spread out in centers  between  DT, Haywood, GreenRidge, The Point. Magnolia Park and now  County Sq. It's getting very inconvenient not being able to shop the stores you prefer in one or two places.

But, County Square will NOT feel like a mall. Or so I’m told. 

[NewlyUpstate]

1 hour ago, vistatiger said:

Agreed! That's the one thing I don't like about Greenville that it's better national retail brands are  becoming so spread out in centers  between  DT, Haywood, GreenRidge, The Point. Magnolia Park and now  County Sq. It's getting very inconvenient not being able to shop the stores you prefer in one or two places.

? The rumored location would be less than a 8 minute walk away from where it is today.

3 of the places you listed are all located in Woodruff Rd which was in no way designed as a walkable area. It was designed as a suburban driving mall and Greenville should feel bad for the rest of history for allowing that to happen.  It would've been so incredibly easy to build the parking lots AROUND the shops instead of between the shops. Still would be an awful design, but gives the same amount of parking for magnitudes more utility.

Edited October 25, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[gman430]

Ben & Jerry’s confirmed:

https://www.wyff4.com/article/ben-and-jerrys-jinya-ramen-bar-coming-to-greenville-south-carolina/45643822?fbclid=IwAR0r_WS5ZltRcIj7DwpkSIX_c-i7Yb7mkRbDk4Pqn0RjZbNjewqUbpjAkpg_aem_Ad1lE2489JXWjqcbFBrgp44MANHq1zb_5mN_ai5MuxdjnTnGumjdhsWX4B6_ElcQxgQ&mibextid=Zxz2cZ#

[gman]

Located adjacent to this project. “On Greenville County Square’s doorstep, condos proposed for infill property.” https://www.postandcourier.com/greenville/news/on-greenville-county-squares-doorstep-condos-proposed-for-infill-property/article_0c58839c-6ea9-11ee-b124-338e43bbf958.html

Edited October 25, 2023 by gman