Greenville County Square redevelopment

[transplant08]

Meh. I see these adult arcade businesses (pinball machines, golf simulators) as just placeholders until the larger development can find a better use of the space. These ventures are typically pretty sparse on the inside and don't require much of a build out (other than food/bev side) and thus leave space easier to repurpose once they decide to leave. For example,, if Group Therapy at Camperdown wanted to pull up stakes, that space could be a blank slate pretty quick.

Better than another coworking space?

[gman430]

I’m guessing Agave and Pins are the two stand alone F&B spaces on the far upper left side of the site plan below: 

Edited August 8, 2023 by gman430

[PuppiesandKittens]

2 hours ago, Gville2012 said:

Airline food is also described as “chef-driven”.  And I’d hope that any restaurant would have “authentic creations”.  (What food wouldn’t be an “authentic creation”?)

Not good.

When Target and a full-line higher-end department store are announced, I’ll be happier.

Edited August 8, 2023 by PuppiesandKittens

[GVLover]

27 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Airline food is also described as “chef-driven”.  And I’d hope that any restaurant would have “authentic creations”.  (What food wouldn’t be an “authentic creation”?)

Not good.

When Target and a full-line higher-end department store are announced, I’ll be happier.

If Target is ever announced, it likely won't be a full-scale store plus it would have parking lots so I'm not even counting on it now. 

[gman430]

8 hours ago, NewlyUpstate said:

My same thoughts. These are all solid gets, but the individual lots absolutely need to be mixed use with office or residential above every building for this to work and become an urban area.  Or else it's just a woodruff road replicate closer to downtown.

Edit: one thing I'm thinking about.. it would be interesting to create a running spreadsheet of all the projects to see how we're tracking towards the "3.5 million sqft of mixed use space".  These 3 projects only total 40k square feet, which if there truly is no height above them, means the rest of the property is going to have to do a lot to stay on track.

The two plots slated for Pin Mechanical and  Agave Bandido have always been slated to be stand alone buildings since the master plan was first revealed four years ago. That is if I got the locations right. It looks like Fairway Social will be at the bottom floor of a mid-rise which is why you don’t see any exterior renderings of it. A reliable source told me that the only mid-rise that has been removed to date including today’s announcement is the Whole Foods Market. Let’s definitely hope it stays that way and doesn’t get any worse. Even though I am hoping for an urban Target also like you see in Charleston, these aren’t bad tenants in my opinion. They will all provide great nightlife,  jobs, bring more people downtown, and help add to the city/county tax base. I’ve heard great things about Pins Mechanical and Agave Bandido has a 4.6 rating on Google with almost 4,300 reviews so they must be doing something right. I guess I am taking a half glass full approach here…lol. 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by gman430

[NewlyUpstate]

9 minutes ago, gman430 said:

The two plots slated for Pin Mechanical and  Agave Bandido have always been slated to be stand alone buildings since the master plan was first revealed four years ago. That is if I got the locations right. It looks like the golf facility will be at the bottom floor of a mid-rise which is why you don’t see any exterior renderings of it. A reliable source told me that the only mid-rise that has been removed to date including today’s announcement is the Whole Foods Market. Let’s definitely hope it stays that way and doesn’t get any worse. Even though I am hoping for an urban Target also like you see in Charleston, these aren’t bad tenants in my opinion. They will all provide great nightlife,  jobs, bring more people downtown, and help add to the city/county tax base. I’ve heard great things about Pins Mechanical and Agave Bandido has a 4.6 rating on Google with almost 4,300 reviews so they must be doing something right. 

 

Yes after seeing the map again I'm good with this.  Places like Pins tend to locate themselves in mid-sized cities with a lot of young professionals - places like Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus.  It's awesome that they found an appeal for their product in our market. I've been to a couple of them and they are usually night-life hot spots.

Stand-alone is fine in small doses as long as they remain destinations for pedestrian traffic and aren't a park and visit type spot.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[hauntedheadnc]

8 hours ago, gman430 said:

 I guess I am taking a half glass full approach here…lol. 

 

Does it hurt?  Do you need to sit down?  Can I bring you some water or something?

[gman430]

23 minutes ago, hauntedheadnc said:

Does it hurt?  Do you need to sit down?  Can I bring you some water or something?

A beer would be nice.  

[ingvegas]

I hope these are just the large anchors, and not what the majority of the site will be comprised of. If so, then it's just another Magnolia Park. And Magnolia Park is kinda of sad and soulless.  A few giant corporate restaurants and "destinations." No real character or backbone. Seems lazy and easy. Also, risky. If the economy takes a downturn then the entire place turns into a complete ghost-town instead of having every other door darkened due to slow business. It's at least $150 for a couple to go out and eat / play at these places. Once you go 2-3 times then the idea of pinball bowling, electronic golf, and pinball machines loses the appeal. 

Hopefully the developers will use the remaining space to create a lot of small to mid-size spaces for new and emerging businesses. Let the area grow more organically with a large variety of cafes, one-off shops, small bars & restaurants - all spaced in-between greenspaces and tree-lined sidewalks with parking tucked away in easily accessible parking garages. Think "old Quebec city" or the traditional Euro-bloc (http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2015/05/traditional-euro-bloc-what-it-is-how-it.html). But I won' hold my breath. They have shareholders to pay....

Oh and don't forget.....please build a high-end 24/7 gym and a Chipotle.....

Edited August 9, 2023 by ingvegas

[PuppiesandKittens]

The developers will need tenants that can pay high rent, in order to pay off the up to $1 billion development cost and other expenses.  For retailers and restaurants, national chains are generally the types of businesses that can afford to pay high rent.  Indie businesses often can’t.

I looked up the Yelp reviews of these places and they seem OK.  But I’m still hoping for destination retail, not what I’ve seen so far.

[apaladin]

Agree this once potentially awesome development is slowly turning into Magnolia Park.

[gman430]

And I thought I was the negative one on this forum. Most cities especially the size of Greenville would bend over backwards to have these type of tenants in their downtown. We should be thankful especially in this economy with the inflation and high interest rates that tenants especially of this caliber are signing on to this project at all. A lot of cities right now are suffering especially with high office vacancy rates, budget deficits, retailers/restaurants closing, etc. Just look at what’s happening in San Francisco if you don’t believe me. Greenville is moving in the opposite direction and has a very bright future. 
 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by gman430

[gman]

Just now, gman430 said:

And I thought I was the negative one on this forum. Most cities especially the size of Greenville would bend over backwards to have these type of tenants in their downtown. We should be thankful especially in this economy with the inflation and high interest rates that tenants especially of this caliber are signing on to this project at all. A lot of cities right now are suffering especially with high office vacancy rates, retailers/restaurants, etc. just look at what’s happening in San Francisco if you don’t believe me. Greenville is moving in the opposite direction and has a very bright future. 

You are spot on.  Also, you have to think that the retail venues and restaurants would not be coming in without the assurance of more offices and residential units being built. This is still a great project for Greenville. 

[vicupstate]

11 minutes ago, gman430 said:

And I thought I was the negative one on this forum. Most cities especially the size of Greenville would bend over backwards to have these type of tenants in their downtown. We should be thankful especially in this economy with the inflation and high interest rates that tenants especially of this caliber are signing on to this project at all. A lot of cities right now are suffering especially with high office vacancy rates, budget deficits, retailers/restaurants closing, etc. Just look at what’s happening in San Francisco if you don’t believe me. Greenville is moving in the opposite direction and has a very bright future. 
 

 

apaladin always has been the Negative Nancy on here. Nothing new about that. Whatever field of work he is in must never experience complications, unforeseen circumstances, delays (both within and outside of his control), nor must it require any government interaction.  Whatever it is, I wish I had devoted my career to that field.    

[clemsonfan]

I'm surprised people are so negative about these tenants, I think they sound fantastic and far preferable to things like Target or department stores. Our downtown is primarily a recreational destination, with its heaviest foot traffic warm weekend nights. I don't see why we need or want utilitarian retail shopping there, especially since such stores practically demand big parking lots because people are carrying big loads of goods home. Further, as a destination spot our downtown was rocking restaurants and bars but how much can one eat, drink, and walk aimlessly up and down Main St.? Until recently there was very little else to do. Now, finally, things are popping up that are going to make you want to come downtown to play as well as eat, such as the VR bar and Group Therapy. I always take out-of-town guests to these places when showing off downtown, it's something to mix in with the walking tour.  The new music venues being announced are really going to help too. Any new additions that make downtown more fun as an afternoon or evening out are highly welcome. I can drive 10 minutes to Target if I need to, and would rather do so if it has more ample parking than a downtown location. Downtown I want to walk in and out of fun places to recreate.

Edited August 9, 2023 by clemsonfan

[PuppiesandKittens]

34 minutes ago, gman said:

You are spot on.  Also, you have to think that the retail venues and restaurants would not be coming in without the assurance of more offices and residential units being built. This is still a great project for Greenville. 

As someone who has spent a significant part of life in an urban area hit hard by the pandemic, with lots of closed businesses, I disagree very strongly with gman430’s statements.

Places whose downtowns have been wrecked by the pandemic are large cities in the Northeast and California: places with long commutes that upper-income office workers are fleeing.   Other downtowns, particularly in mid-size cities in fast-growing states, are doing very well.  Salt Lake City’s downtown, for example, has much more foot traffic than before the pandemic.

Greenville is the latter category.  The current era, with people and businesses pouring into Greenville (downtown and in the suburbs), may not last forever.  Since there are lots of people and businesses that want to be downtown, we need to be selective.  We need to get current developments done right, with quality construction and quality businesses that will help ensure that downtown Greenville is a first-rate area over the long run.  We don’t just need to take any kind of junk downtown.

If we let any kind of junk be built downtown, for any use, then downtown will be the next derelict area in a few decades.  This isn’t just my unsubstantiated view; there were some recent articles in the New York Times, showing how lots of similar low-budget construction in a time period creates a tidal wave of properties that all become low-value at the same time, decimating an area’s long-term viability.  So we need to be careful and not let a bunch of junk be built now.

As to why we need more retail downtown: there is unmet demand, with very attractive demographics downtown and southeast of downtown.  As a nearby resident, build even more nice stores and I will come to them, just as nice stores downtown have performed very well.  It shouldn’t be necessary to drive to Woodruff or Haywood Roads for Target and Dillard’s.

Edited August 9, 2023 by PuppiesandKittens

[gman430]

Just received word that even more tenants that haven’t been revealed yet have signed on. Expect an announcement soon. 

[apaladin]

No problem with any of the annonced tenants just hoping it doesn’t turn out like Magnolia Park and Shops at Greenridge with one and 2 story buildings and a lot of surface parking. I want to see some height and a couple of tower cranes! 

Edited August 10, 2023 by apaladin

[GVLover]

The more I think about it, the more I realized how spoiled we all are here. Haha I understand this development hasn't played out the way we'd all love so far but what we're getting is going to be yet another successful development in our nationally renowned downtown. People who visit aren't going to think "oh wow, that was supposed to be a 12 story building here", and instead they're going to enjoy what is built there as all hope we do. I SERIOUSLY doubt this development will go to the route of Magnolia Park and I'm still hopeful it'll still largely follow the plans unveiled over the last couple of years. 

[vicupstate]

The cost of the land will dictate that every building cannot be 1 or 2 or 3 stories.  The density HAS to be there in order for the high cost of the land, infrastructure and structured parking to be covered and yet also be profitable. I imagine Whole Foods is paying a very high rent per foot such that Roco agreed to go single story/single use on that building. 

[gman430]

12 hours ago, apaladin said:

No problem with any of the annonced tenants just hoping it doesn’t turn out like Magnolia Park and Shops at Greenridge with one and 2 story buildings and a lot of surface parking. I want to see some height and a couple of tower cranes! 

I understand the concern. Like I said previously, Pins Mechanical and Agave Bandido were always slated to be stand alone buildings since the master plan was first revealed which you can see in the below pic. Both will be at very top left corner next to the round a bout. Everything minus the Whole Foods Market of course is still moving forward like it was originally planned.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by gman430

[motonenterprises]

1 hour ago, GVLover said:

The more I think about it, the more I realized how spoiled we all are here. Haha I understand this development hasn't played out the way we'd all love so far but what we're getting is going to be yet another successful development in our nationally renowned downtown. People who visit aren't going to think "oh wow, that was supposed to be a 12 story building here", and instead they're going to enjoy what is built there as all hope we do. I SERIOUSLY doubt this development will go to the route of Magnolia Park and I'm still hopeful it'll still largely follow the plans unveiled over the last couple of years. 

I agree. A couple of posters are very spoiled to an annoying point.

[distortedlogic]

1 hour ago, vicupstate said:

The cost of the land will dictate that every building cannot be 1 or 2 or 3 stories.  The density HAS to be there in order for the high cost of the land, infrastructure and structured parking to be covered and yet also be profitable. I imagine Whole Foods is paying a very high rent per foot such that Roco agreed to go single story/single use on that building. 

Even still I am not sure why they would agree to a single story building with a surface parking lot. Lots of developers require businesses adhere to their requirements; think about places where even fast food restaurants are required to follow the building and architectural requirements and themes; Biltmore area of AVL, Helen, Ga, etc. It seems they would have said; "sure we'd love to have you but it has to be a ground level floor of a larger building with less surface parking." 

[gman430]

41 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

Even still I am not sure why they would agree to a single story building with a surface parking lot. Lots of developers require businesses adhere to their requirements; think about places where even fast food restaurants are required to follow the building and architectural requirements and themes; Biltmore area of AVL, Helen, Ga, etc. It seems they would have said; "sure we'd love to have you but it has to be a ground level floor of a larger building with less surface parking." 

Because it’s the holy grail Whole Foods Market. Having them helps the developer land other national retail/restaurant tenants. Basically it’s a good selling point and the developer caved in. One thing I don’t get though is why it’s okay for other cities to have Whole Foods on the bottom floor of a mid or high rise like you see in uptown Charlotte but it’s not okay in downtown Greenville? Is it something about the Greenville market or did Whole Foods have a change of heart corporate wise? Makes you wonder. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by gman430

[vicupstate]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

Because it’s the holy grail Whole Foods Market. Having them helps the developer land other national retail/restaurant tenants. Basically it’s a good selling point and the developer caved in. One thing I don’t get though is why it’s okay for other cities to have Whole Foods on the bottom floor of a mid or high rise like you see in uptown Charlotte but it’s not okay in downtown Greenville? Is it something about the Greenville market or did Whole Foods have a change of heart corporate wise? Makes you wonder. 

Land in DT Charlotte would be a lot more expensive than land in DT Greenville, I'm sure that is at least part of the reason. I'm sure Whole Foods prefers the visibility of a stand alone store whenever it can get it, but the cost differential makes it impossible in Charlotte's case.