Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[RANYC]

Why does this need to be a high-rise?  Why is a high-rise needed over the CTC as well?  Is this the only way the city can afford hubs now?

[15895]

At the end of the day, I don’t think constituents care other than a price tag that will be sure to draw opposition without a public-private partnership (even if it ends up being more expensive in the end…)

Look… Greyhound buses can’t even lease out a portion of the parking deck for light rail in University City. It even appeared something was agreed upon and some constituents got it reversed… within a couple days…

Less than 1,000 people use Charlotte’s Amtrak a day. Maybe like 800. Red Line isn’t happening - at all in the form of rail. Silver Line doesn’t really matter. I’m super pessimistic about the silver line unless somehow Dems take a trifecta control of the state. The silver Line probably wouldn’t even be open during most of Amtraks arrivals or departures… but there just won’t be many people anyway even if there were good times. I’d bet less than 100 people/day. There’s not gonna be hardly any CATS local service so Silver line riders won’t really need Amtrak. It’s just on nobodies radar other than not wanting to give reason for a political challenger due to spending $ on an Amtrak station. Partnering with a private developer makes sense to the vast majority most likely (again, even though it’s most likely not cheaper… and most likely more expensive. But people won’t notice that) 

[kermit]

10 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Less than 1,000 people use Charlotte’s Amtrak a day. Maybe like 800. Red Line isn’t happening - at all in the form of rail. Silver Line doesn’t really matter. I’m super pessimistic about the silver line unless somehow Dems take a trifecta control of the state. The silver Line probably wouldn’t even be open during most of Amtraks arrivals or departures… but there just won’t be many people anyway even if there were good times. I’d bet less than 100 people/day. There’s not gonna be hardly any CATS local service so Silver line riders won’t really need Amtrak. It’s just on nobodies radar other than not wanting to give reason for a political challenger due to spending $ on an Amtrak station. Partnering with a private developer makes sense to the vast majority most likely (again, even though it’s most likely not cheaper… and most likely more expensive. But people won’t notice that) 

There are currently only two Amtrak departure/arrivals from Charlotte (out of a current 12 departures/arrivals) that are outside of normal CATS operating times.

I had thought the PPP was contracted for the station to be built without any public cost (in return for development rights to the surrounding land). No progress is being made because the developer is no longer confident they can make money from the surrounding projects. [there was a large cost for track and platform work, but the city and state found grant money for that already and it has been mostly completed]

Edited September 25, 2023 by kermit

[Nathan2]

18 hours ago, RANYC said:

Why does this need to be a high-rise?  Why is a high-rise needed over the CTC as well?  Is this the only way the city can afford hubs now?

Yea, its kind of sad we can't have stand-alone stations that actually resemble a station. There's a reason classic train stations have turned into tourist destinations in other cities. 

[kermit]

20 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

Yea, its kind of sad we can't have stand-alone stations that actually resemble a station. There's a reason classic train stations have turned into tourist destinations in other cities. 

Classic train stations were nearly always built by private companies or consortiums of private companies (Los Angeles Union Station is an exception). One of their functions was to be a monument to the railroad’s greatness, basically big stations played the same role as Bank of America tower does for BAC -- a big fancy building  intended to project status. Localities never had the financial juice (or motivation) necessary to build a monumental station and as a publicly owned corporation, Amtrak is basically prohibited from this sort of construction. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by kermit

[Blue_Devil]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:29 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

At the end of the day, I don’t think constituents care other than a price tag that will be sure to draw opposition without a public-private partnership (even if it ends up being more expensive in the end…)

Look… Greyhound buses can’t even lease out a portion of the parking deck for light rail in University City. It even appeared something was agreed upon and some constituents got it reversed… within a couple days…

Less than 1,000 people use Charlotte’s Amtrak a day. Maybe like 800. Red Line isn’t happening - at all in the form of rail. Silver Line doesn’t really matter. I’m super pessimistic about the silver line unless somehow Dems take a trifecta control of the state. The silver Line probably wouldn’t even be open during most of Amtraks arrivals or departures… but there just won’t be many people anyway even if there were good times. I’d bet less than 100 people/day. There’s not gonna be hardly any CATS local service so Silver line riders won’t really need Amtrak. It’s just on nobodies radar other than not wanting to give reason for a political challenger due to spending $ on an Amtrak station. Partnering with a private developer makes sense to the vast majority most likely (again, even though it’s most likely not cheaper… and most likely more expensive. But people won’t notice that) 

I mean, it seems Red Line might be happening now? That’s what the tone was in the other thread?

[Windsurfer]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

Classic train stations were generally built by private companies (or consortiums of private companies) as monuments to the company and they were intended to serve essentially the same corporate purpose as Bank of America tower -- big fancy buildings intended to project status. Localities never had the financial juice (or motivation) necessary to build a monumental station. As a publicly owned corporation, Amtrak is basically prohibited from building these sorts of stations.

Ah, thanks. That explains one of the questions I had about London's various terminals. South Western and Southern lives from Watherloo, etc.  Such a shame competitors can't get together and build single one together and share space.  Perhaps that's not the entirely the reason for London's different terminals, but it does explain a lot. 

Sounds like it's the same all over the world.  

 

[Third Strike]

This was posted on the transit subreddit and the slide was presented at the opening of the Brightline Station in Orlando. Note the CLT-ATL corridor on the map:

[DavieNative]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:38 PM, Third Strike said:

This was posted on the transit subreddit and the slide was presented at the opening of the Brightline Station in Orlando. Note the CLT-ATL corridor on the map:

It's interesting to me that brightline seems to have ruled out Jacksonville even though their parent company owns the right of way.  Charlotte to Atlanta would be excellent, Something I would definitley consider using a couple of times a year.

[davidclt]

On a Friday night in October, the station is jammed. Traffic backing up down Tryon street. Our little engine that could seems to be doing well. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by davidclt
More pics

[kermit]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:12 PM, davidclt said:

On a Friday night in October, the station is jammed. Traffic backing up down Tryon street. Our little engine that could seems to be doing well.

Yea, record ridership, on more trains than ever before but the same old, underbuilt (located in a flood plain),  station remains. Who woulda thunk there would be capacity issues?

Edited October 8, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Its very easy to not have faith in Amtrak but this passage from an article discussing Amtrak expanding (creating) true HSR routes is worthy of note:

Quote

His team has identified a set of "compelling city pairings" where this type of rail could thrive. So far, Dallas to Houston has emerged as the top candidate. The 3.5-hour drive between them is "just short enough that you don't want to fly," Byford says, yet drivers consistently encounter traffic.

"We're looking at the revenue projections and so far it looks really positive, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a reality yet," Byford says. His team is also evaluating a Vancouver-Seattle-Portland-Eugene line, and considering other potential candidates such as Charlotte to Atlanta.

https://www.pcmag.com/articles/inside-amtraks-push-to-bring-japanese-style-high-speed-rail-to-the-us

[SouthEndCLT811]

I didn't realize the NC State Fair opens up a temporary train station just outside of Gate 2.  My brother in law and I were chatting last night about hearing more regarding the state fair this year then prior years (at least for us)..  Either way I went on to look at the Amtrak options and most days the earliest and end of day return options are all sold out.  Awesome to see the ridership in our state, hopefully as we've all said that leads to more options and faster service.

https://www.amtrak.com/stations/nsf

[15895]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:25 PM, kermit said:

Its very easy to not have faith in Amtrak but this passage from an article discussing Amtrak expanding (creating) true HSR routes is worthy of note:

https://www.pcmag.com/articles/inside-amtraks-push-to-bring-japanese-style-high-speed-rail-to-the-us

The great news is the courts already ruled eminent domain for the project is legal.

And the catastrophic news that I don’t know how it doesn’t show up when you Google News it. 

Texas Lawmakers are pushing to reject all federal help. It seems very likely Texas will reject any federal help

“Two U.S. Congressmen from the Lone Star State, Rep. Michael McCaul and Rep. Jake Ellzey, have expressed their opposition to several grant applications submitted to the Federal Railroad Administration. These grant applications were jointly submitted by Amtrak and Texas Central, two companies aiming to partner to establish a 240 high-speed rail line between Houston and Dallas.

Texas Central Railroad and Amtrak submitted three grant applications and a corridor identification program application focusing on rail infrastructure and intercity passenger rail.”

https://www.kbtx.com/2023/10/03/two-congressmen-oppose-high-speed-rail-grants-urge-faa-reject/

 

Many people are saying to just divert the $ to California’s HSR well underway. If TX rejects help, I imagine it’ll go to BrightLine’s Los Angeles / Las Vegas project. 
 

As always. This isn’t sunbelt cities vs. non-sunbelt cities. Seattle isn’t a sunbelt, they rejected federal $ for mass transit so it went to Atlanta & built MARTA. It’s all politics. Which is why I make it a point to say. Vote Democrat. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Brightline Charlotte to DC, yes.  Does anyone go to Georgia for anything?  I think of it as just a place to change planes or get gas on the way to Florida. 

[Reverie39]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:41 AM, SouthEndCLT811 said:

I didn't realize the NC State Fair opens up a temporary train station just outside of Gate 2.  My brother in law and I were chatting last night about hearing more regarding the state fair this year then prior years (at least for us)..  Either way I went on to look at the Amtrak options and most days the earliest and end of day return options are all sold out.  Awesome to see the ridership in our state, hopefully as we've all said that leads to more options and faster service.

https://www.amtrak.com/stations/nsf

Rail demand is proving to be very significant in NC. Transit-supporting politicians and authorities should really take advantage of this and show off the numbers, make a big deal about them. Secure every bit of funding we can.

[kermit]

^ I needed to get back from visiting my parents in Durham last night, but there were no seats available on the train.

(long walk)

Edited October 16, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Wont it be nice to have a nice new station like Raleigh has here in Charlotte maybe even with a bar inside with a skyline view like Raleigh's Union Station has?

From Twitter

""Raleigh Union Station is more than a train stop, it's also home to On My Way Bartending + Wine & Design""

Edited October 17, 2023 by KJHburg

[kermit]

Transit Time Charlotte Ledger newsletter reports: https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/breaking-norfolk-southern-says-its

Quote

BREAKING: Norfolk Southern says it's willing to deal on the Red Line

Railroad's reversal raises odds of train service to Huntersville, Davidson and Cornelius; 'An insurmountable obstacle has become surmountable,' council member says

Quote

In a short letter this summer to Charlotte Mayor Vi Lyles and City Manager Marcus Jones, Norfolk Southern senior vice president and chief strategy officer Michael McClellan wrote that the railroad is open to discussing the fate of what it calls the “O Line”:

Norfolk Southern is willing to consider engaging with the City of Charlotte and other interested parties in the region regarding a possible transaction of the O Line. We have not decided upon what form such a transaction might take, whether an outright sale of the O Line or some variant of a lease.

Quote

McClellan added that the letter should not be viewed as a commitment to sell or lease the line.

The correspondence is dated July 25, 2023. The Charlotte Ledger learned of its existence last week and requested it Friday under state public records laws from city officials, who provided a copy on Tuesday.

One yellow flag to this. The story makes it sound like the city is assuming the 2021 estimated construction cost ($671 million for phase 1) is still relevant. Unfortunately the days of commuter rail (trips into the CBD in the morning and trips out in the evening with little in between) are over. The FTA has made clear they are uninterested in funding commuter projects and the $671 number was based on single track (i.e. one way) service.  A regional rail project (steady, two-way, service patterns all day), is gonna be necessary, will need double track and that will cost a good bit more than $671 million.

Link to the letter from NS (it is suspiciously brief): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UzVoVvDMJImoStBvntA2TIBTR3UT9fPF/view?pli=1

Edited October 18, 2023 by kermit

[Third Strike]

I wonder why NS would change their mind on potentially allowing passenger trains on their line. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there some parts of the O-Line, between Charlotte and Winston-Salem, that’s been out of service for quite sometime? Maybe NS is hoping any passenger rail on this line means improving the line with federal funds? Either way, not complaining if this goes through, for both the Red Line and Amtrak service between Winston and Charlotte. 
 

Edit: Also find it interesting they would consider selling the line outright. I hope the NCRR/NCDOT jump on that, if that’s an option, even if passenger rail comes later. Also interesting that Winston has a better chance of a rail connection to Charlotte than Greensboro. Depending on the frequencies and the time, could open up some economic doors for people living in Winston that want to work in Charlotte. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Third Strike

[ajfunder]

Just amazing what happens when there is actual federal incentive for passenger rail…. Money talks.
 

Some Class 1’s realized the opportunity a few decades ago, others are just awakening from the slumber,  looks like NS is coming around.

[Windsurfer]

14 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I wonder why NS would change their mind on potentially allowing passenger trains on their line. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there some parts of the O-Line, between Charlotte and Winston-Salem, that’s been out of service for quite sometime? Maybe NS is hoping any passenger rail on this line means improving the line with federal funds? Either way, not complaining if this goes through, for both the Red Line and Amtrak service between Winston and Charlotte. 
 

Edit: Also find it interesting they would consider selling the line outright. I hope the NCRR/NCDOT jump on that, if that’s an option, even if passenger rail comes later. Also interesting that Winston has a better chance of a rail connection to Charlotte than Greensboro. Depending on the frequencies and the time, could open up some economic doors for people living in Winston that want to work in Charlotte. 

'i remember many, many years ago I had my hopes raised with those folks over an obsolete siding alongside our warehouse. Something along the lines of, "send us a proposal and we'll consider it as we're currently not needing it.."  Once my correspondence went to the next level it was killed.  It's like they want to have their options open, but ultimately have a policy of, once we have it, we'll never relinquish.

[Reverie39]

This is awesome, awesome news. Thankful to the people in charge who kept pushing for this through years of roadblocks. 
 

Agreed that this is no longer a “commuter rail” project but something that needs to operate at some regular frequency throughout the day. That will balloon costs but it will ABSOLUTELY be worth it in the long run. This could make the 77 corridor/Lake Norman area one of the most attractive places to move to in this entire part of the country if done right. I can foresee tons of dense pockets erupting around Red Line stops, allowing people to live affordably outside the urban core and close to one of the best lake communities around while taking transit into work or entertainment events in the city. Think about how rare that is in the south especially. 
 

Please go all out on this Charlotte. 

[15895]

8 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

This is awesome, awesome news. Thankful to the people in charge who kept pushing for this through years of roadblocks. 
 

Agreed that this is no longer a “commuter rail” project but something that needs to operate at some regular frequency throughout the day. That will balloon costs but it will ABSOLUTELY be worth it in the long run. This could make the 77 corridor/Lake Norman area one of the most attractive places to move to in this entire part of the country if done right. I can foresee tons of dense pockets erupting around Red Line stops, allowing people to live affordably outside the urban core and close to one of the best lake communities around while taking transit into work or entertainment events in the city. Think about how rare that is in the south especially. 
 

Please go all out on this Charlotte. 

Hopefully. There’s already signs of TOD around potential stations literally because of the prospects of the red line. The 3 LKN towns have been working a long time on making their area accessible, walkable etc. mandatory sidewalks, expanding greenways, look at the pedestrian infrastructure on the bridge even on Catawba Ave. 

They also build pretty dense in LKN too. I agree a rail line would kill it. Even like. Heavy rail with 30 minute peak frequencies bi-directional, hour off peak I think would be yuge. It’d be dope to get off at Cornelius and be able to take a local bus to say Jetton Park.

Edited October 20, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Spero]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:57 PM, kermit said:

This is the first tangible news I have heard about a temporary station

Just dropping in from Raleigh to say this would be the biggest boost to my use of the rail to Charlotte. I don’t give a rip if the ticketing office is a pup tent, as long as it isn’t in the middle of nowhere with zero transit or pedestrian safety like the current station.