Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[KJHburg]

This is the Charlotte train station before it was razed in the early 1960s on West Trade and replaced with what we have on N Tryon today.   Built in 1905.   Salisbury's train station looks very similar and luckily is still standing.  

[Windsurfer]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This is the Charlotte train station before it was razed in the early 1960s on West Trade and replaced with what we have on N Tryon today.   Built in 1905.   Salisbury's train station looks very similar and luckily is still standing.  

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Windsurfer
Wanted to delete post. I must be missing something because I can't see a simple option to do so.

[michaelef]

Greyhound is looking to leave uptown for a little bit A.K.A 63 months or a little over 5 years

https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1695132096648323465?s=20

[RANYC]

7 minutes ago, michaelef said:

Greyhound is looking to leave uptown for a little bit A.K.A 63 months or a little over 5 years

https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1695132096648323465?s=20

in prep for Gateway construction.  Nice to see this project show some signs of life, tbh

[KJHburg]

5 years seems a long time though.   This project just has become so complicated for a train station and bus station.  

[kdub1]

On 8/25/2023 at 2:18 PM, michaelef said:

Greyhound is looking to leave uptown for a little bit A.K.A 63 months or a little over 5 years

https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1695132096648323465?s=20

1. Five years? The City of Charlotte will be lucky if Greyhound doesn't pull the same stunt that it did in Raleigh over Union Station. There's zero chance of Greyhound returning to downtown Raleigh once the bus station portion is complete.

2. Once again, five years? State transportation leaders may be more Raleigh-centric but the Charlotte leaders cannot be let off the hook for ditching a temporary Uptown station that would have relieved overcrowding at the old station and their lack of readiness is painfully showing itself as Gateway's opening keeps getting pushed back.

Edited August 26, 2023 by kdub1

[PuppiesandKittens]

Since CATS has long looked at having commuter trains between Charlotte and Gastonia, since there are already CATS commuter buses between Charlotte and Gastonia and since Piedmont trains are push-pull, why not extend Piedmont trains to downtown Gastonia, also stopping at the airport and perhaps other towns along the way, and perhaps honor CATS bus passes on them?  I would assume that this would require some trackwork and new stations, but it seems like a low-cost way to add some transit service.

[kermit]

^ Unlike the tracks where the Piedmonts run (which is owned by the NCRR and leased to NS), NS owns everything* West of the current Charlotte station.  The NS lease on the NCRR tracks says that NCDOT can run as many passenger trains on it as they want, provided they don’t impact NS’s -current- capacity. On NS owned tracks, NS typically says that passenger rail can be run provided it does not impact -future- capacity. This allows NS to be extortionate with their upgrade requests, they would likely require dedicated track w grade separation from freight for commuter rail. Since their relatively new intermodal terminal is at the airport they will be very protective of capacity in that area.

Think commuter rail to the airport and Gastonia (and Kings Mountain) would be great to have, but it won’t get done on the cheap.

* I believe that NCDOT now owns the refurbished track between the Gateway Station platform and the equipment service yard at Summit. This track runs parallel to the existing NS main.

Edited August 27, 2023 by kermit

[utcltjay]

Being very familiar with San Francisco's Trans Bay terminsl, watching so much money poured into a huge transit station over 5 years of construction, and still not in use to this day other than the bus station part, it really is sad to see the lost potential and wasted money. I know there isn't much rush since the actual high speed rail is still years away, but going ahead and building the station now would at least secure the project and start spurring other development around the area that is hesitant till this gets off the ground. The wall of underutilized land between uptown and gateway village is truly the next boom area of uptown. 

[KJHburg]

Now the city council is backtracking from letting Greyhound lease space at the University City LYNX station.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/greyhound-buses-could-move-university-city-area/GOJUK2M6YJHA3LTCE6YDEOF4AA/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

I guess now they can choose a location separate and away from any LYNX station and if they do that they will probably never be a tenant in the gateway center project due to this action. 

[JRCLT]

On 8/26/2023 at 5:38 PM, kdub1 said:

1. Five years? The City of Charlotte will be lucky if Greyhound doesn't pull the same stunt that it did in Raleigh over Union Station. There's zero chance of Greyhound returning to downtown Raleigh once the bus station portion is complete.

2. Once again, five years? State transportation leaders may be more Raleigh-centric but the Charlotte leaders cannot be let off the hook for ditching a temporary Uptown station that would have relieved overcrowding at the old station and their lack of readiness is painfully showing itself as Gateway's opening keeps getting pushed back.

I believe it may be for the phases…the station may be open in 2-3 years after construction but the second phase is the bus station on the other block that comes after. Another 2ish years? At least that’s my intuitive opinion, but without any details it’s nothing but my speculation.

Edited August 28, 2023 by JRCLT

[15895]

That space made so much sense. Is the backlash because they think… greyhound attracts crime? 

[JRCLT]

33 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That space made so much sense. Is the backlash because they think… greyhound attracts crime? 

Or crime that already exists in University City…?

Edited August 28, 2023 by JRCLT

[15895]

16 minutes ago, JRCLT said:

Or crime that already exists in University City…?

Lol. I was literally thinking that. It just seems so odd. I wouldn’t even expect this backlash from like. Wealthier parts of Charlotte (maybe I’m naive?).  I’m actually quite surprised by this.

Is anyone else? 

[kayman]

18 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Lol. I was literally thinking that. It just seems so odd. I wouldn’t even expect this backlash from like. Wealthier parts of Charlotte (maybe I’m naive?).  I’m actually quite surprised by this.

Is anyone else? 

Believe it or not, District 4 has a group of powerful and wealthy black folks these days especially in Highland Creek.  They are like the Upper Marlboro types in Southern PG County the DMV. 

Renee Johnson has been doing their bidding for awhile now with their NIMBYism moves of blocking the cluster housing PUD proposal rezoning withdrawl on Mallard Creek Church Road recently.  

There are similar types of wealthier black households in Steele Creek these days too in District 3. Charlotte is a hub of black wealthier & influential individuals. These wealthier black households are as NIMBYish as others, so the assumption of black folks not being this way has been debunked. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by kayman

[15895]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

Believe it or not, District 4 has a group of powerful and wealthy black folks these days especially in Highland Creek.  They are like the Upper Marlboro types in Southern PG County the DMV. 

Renee Johnson has been doing their bidding for awhile now with their NIMBYism moves of blocking the cluster housing PUD proposal rezoning withdrawl on Mallard Creek Church Road recently.  

There are similar types of wealthier black households in Steele Creek these days too in District 3. Charlotte is a hub of black wealthier & influential individuals. These wealthier black households are as NIMBYish as others, so the assumption of black folks not being this way has been debunked. 

I didn’t make that assumption about black folks. I guess I’m still just a little surprised by the fact the greyhound in the University City parking deck for light rail even caught the attention of residents in Highland Creek. 

I just guess if I were a NIMBY. Id want it in the light rail parking deck along Tryon. But. Obviously someone cares so. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kayman]

15 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I didn’t make that assumption about black folks. I guess I’m still just a little surprised by the fact the greyhound in the University City parking deck for light rail even caught the attention of residents in Highland Creek. 

I just guess if I were a NIMBY. Id want it in the light rail parking deck along Tryon. But. Obviously someone cares so. 

Oh I know you didn't make that assumption.  I put it out there for all to be aware of these things within black wealthier parts of Charlotte.  That group of individuals are something else. As I'm from that socioeconomic demographic in my upbringing and very familiar with the associated environments' bias.  Their latest stunt with Johnson being the face of it sealed the deal of their intentions here. 

[15895]

14 minutes ago, kayman said:

Oh I know you didn't make that assumption.  I put it out there for all to be aware of these things within black wealthier parts of Charlotte.  That group of individuals are something else. As I'm from that socioeconomic demographic in my upbringing and very familiar with the associated environments' bias.  Their latest stunt with Johnson being the face of it sealed the deal of their intentions here. 

Got it. Thanks for the background because it was helpful. 

[RANYC]

4 hours ago, kayman said:

Believe it or not, District 4 has a group of powerful and wealthy black folks these days especially in Highland Creek.  They are like the Upper Marlboro types in Southern PG County the DMV. 

Renee Johnson has been doing their bidding for awhile now with their NIMBYism moves of blocking the cluster housing PUD proposal rezoning withdrawl on Mallard Creek Church Road recently.  

There are similar types of wealthier black households in Steele Creek these days too in District 3. Charlotte is a hub of black wealthier & influential individuals. These wealthier black households are as NIMBYish as others, so the assumption of black folks not being this way has been debunked. 

You just hit the nail on the freakin head lol.  The issues may be far more socioeconomic than racial.  This upcoming council election will be telling.  Watlington will replace Braxton, Renee will hold her seat, someone just as NIMBYish as Watlington will replace her in her district…the UDO will get a rework and I suspect we all will just have to deal with it.  We’ve all heard of America’s rural/urban divide.  Well, here within the city of Charlotte’s relative vastness (300+ square miles), we have a suburban/urban divide.  The reality is that a minority of voices have been driving an acceleration of urbanist policies across the entirety of the city and there really doesn’t appear to be broad-based buy-in.  There is likely to be some UDO-reversal, UDO-dilution, or UDO-containment as we see a deepening demarcation between urban and suburban in Charlotte policy-making.

Edited August 29, 2023 by RANYC

[kayman]

7 hours ago, RANYC said:

You just hit the nail on the freakin head lol.  The issues may be far more socioeconomic than racial.  This upcoming council election will be telling.  Watlington will replace Braxton, Renee will hold her seat, someone just as NIMBYish as Watlington will replace her in her district…the UDO will get a rework and I suspect we all will just have to deal with it.  We’ve all heard of America’s rural/urban divide.  Well, here within the city of Charlotte’s relative vastness (300+ square miles), we have a suburban/urban divide.  The reality is that a minority of voices have been driving an acceleration of urbanist policies across the entirety of the city and there really doesn’t appear to be broad-based buy-in.  There is likely to be some UDO-reversal, UDO-dilution, or UDO-containment as we see a deepening demarcation between urban and suburban in Charlotte policy-making.

There's a 50-50 chance Watlington will make it because Henderson has been aggressively campaigning from what I've seen. Johnson isn't guaranteed to be reelected either in D4 

If Melinda Lilly wins in D3 as well then the anti-UDO foolishness will be culled. The main ones who tend to turn out if it's low turnout election as tends to be isn't the anti-UDO crew except in D7.

[RANYC]

14 minutes ago, kayman said:

There's a 50-50 chance Watlington will make it because Henderson has been aggressively campaigning from what I've seen. Johnson isn't guaranteed to be reelected either in D4 

If Melinda Lilly wins in D3 as well then the anti-UDO foolishness will be culled. The main ones who tend to turn out if it's low turnout election as tends to be isn't the anti-UDO crew except in D7.

I’m definitely pro-UDO and was hoping Watlington might be vulnerable; however, she has a PhD in Economic Policy from Charlotte, apparently.  Henderson’s Observer bio says “12 years Diploma and 1 1/2 CPCC.”  Unclear how voters will react.  I do like that Henderson’s website says protect the canopy, pedestrian and bike facilities.  Unclear her views on by-right density though.  I have no clue about any of these people even though I’m an active voter.  I like Lilly’s profile - do we have a UDO view from her?

How the Charlotte Wayward Observer left the UDO out of candidate questioning escapes me!

Edited August 29, 2023 by RANYC

[davidclt]

16 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I’m definitely pro-UDO and was hoping Watlington might be vulnerable; however, she has a PhD in Economic Policy from Charlotte, apparently.  Henderson’s Observer bio says “12 years Diploma and 1 1/2 CPCC.”  Unclear how voters will react.  I do like that Henderson’s website says protect the canopy, pedestrian and bike facilities.  Unclear her views on by-right density though.  I have no clue about any of these people even though I’m an active voter.  I like Lilly’s profile - do we have a UDO view from her?

How the Charlotte Wayward Observer left the UDO out of candidate questioning escapes me!

I'm trying to figure out how to cast my ballot. The primary for At-Large is . . . concerning.

[15895]

WaPo had a good article on rail Expansion in the US (including bright line) and some graphics of the Amtrak proposals.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/08/30/us-high-speed-rail-projects/
 

 

 

[kermit]

Washington Post has a story on "Higher Speed Rail Projects taking shape in the US". The article does not mention NC but this map was tucked into the story:

This is derivative from Amtrak's wishlist map of new routes that has been circulating for a while. Consensus among the rail nerds still on Twitter is that these are the routes that have been shortlisted by the FRA's new corridors program, and are the routes that Amtrak is most interested in spending its billions on. No surprises that the S Line shortcut and Wilmington service on on the map. Asheville is also not a surprise (although it will be so slow that I feel like money is better spent elsewhere). Most significantly for Charlotte is EXPANDED CLT-ATL service (with some trains continuing to Birmingham possibly). NS is going to fight every step of the way but it does appear that everyone (other than South Carolina) is beginning to recognize that the CLT-ATL route is of first order importance to rail expansion in the US.

Very little of this this is a sure thing, but if the Atlanta route is significantly expanded then I am worried that Gateway Station has insufficient platform capacity for Regional Rail + expanded low speed Atlanta + Atlanta Greenfield HSR + planned and existing service to the North. Any regional rail going to Gateway would for sure need to run through rather than turning there if traffic increases.

In the category of fantasy-land, it would be great if this route upgrade cash was spent on triple/quad tracking the NS main from Gateway to Kings Mountain to allow NS to relax about freight access to the intermodal yard. This would certainly make an airport stop along with regional rail to Gastonia possible. (Quad tracking into Gaston County will certainly be necessary if ATL HSR is ever built)

This map also opens the possibility for a route revision to the Greenfield HSR preferred route. If normal-speed CLT-ATL service is expanded then it would be very satisfying for HSR to fully bypass Greenville-Spg and instead serve those towns  with slower trains that already run through those cities. This would reduce trip times on ATL-CLT HSR significantly.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/08/30/us-high-speed-rail-projects/

EDIT: dang, AirNostrumMAD beat me

Edited August 30, 2023 by kermit

[ajfunder]

The fact that Charlotte-Columbia-Charleston is always left off these planning maps boggles me. Connect the largest City in the Carolina’s to the largest City in SC and what is probably one of the most popular Charlotte weekend/getaway destinations seems like a no brainer. Is that just me?