Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[DEnd]

20 hours ago, kermit said:

No one is explaining delays, no one is taking responsibility for the delays, no one seems to be particularly upset about it. This situation sucks.

The Delay is Charlotte wants the Station to fit with the development.  Since the development is privately led, the developer has to have tenants. No Tenants=Delay.  

[49er]

At what point do city leaders decide that a quarter century has been long enough and we need a plan b? At least 30 years of planning will have elapsed before a building is operational there. An air rights deal where the city/state build the station and then sell the tower rights down the road would be just fine. Just picture epicentre but a train station. All of the momentum for new office is in south end. The market may be telling the master developer than there's not much demand for the foreseeable future. 

Edited January 29 by 49er

[kermit]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:10 AM, 49er said:

The market may be telling the master developer than there's not much demand for the foreseeable future. 

IMO no lender is going to be even vaguely interested in speculative new Uptown office space for at least five years, very likely longer than that. Anyone thinking that the Gateway district (which was always planned to be anchored by offices) will start construction before the 'office question' is resolved is fooling themselves. The city needs a new plan!

 

Edited January 30 by kermit

[RANYC]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:15 AM, kermit said:

IMO no lender is going to be even vaguely interested in speculative new Uptown office space for at least five years, very likely longer than that. Anyone thinking that the Gateway district (which was always planned to be anchored by offices) will start construction before the 'office question' is resolved is fooling themselves. The city needs a new plan!

 

Just leaving a finance conference where the credit markets and office space featured prominently.  All I took away was everyone is seeking arbitrage opportunities among CMBS tranches but no one really thinking about lending to new supply.  Could be wrong but that was one take.  Fed cuts as early as Q2 might…just might change the analysis in growth places like here 

Edited February 1 by RANYC

[CLT Development]

I will just say that the new "Roads First" approach was the nail in the coffin for the 3rd iteration of the Charlotte Gateway Station. Not office. They can still deliver residential and hotels and have office be a later phase. No Silver Line means no station.

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[RANYC]

12 hours ago, CLT Development said:

I will just say that the new "Roads First" approach was the nail in the coffin for the 3rd iteration of the Charlotte Gateway Station. Not office. They can still deliver residential and hotels and have office be a later phase. No Silver Line means no station.

I'm sorry, but can you clarify your post?  Are you saying that "Roads First" means no Amtrak train stop in Uptown?   

[CLT Development]

3 hours ago, RANYC said:

I'm sorry, but can you clarify your post?  Are you saying that "Roads First" means no Amtrak train stop in Uptown?   

I mean that I expect the developers to pull out if there is no Silver Line, which would mean back to the drawing board. I know there was significant frustration around the inner-lining conversation that was teed off by ULI, and was just one of the many things that have slowed the process.

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[CLT2014]

16 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

I mean that I expect the developers to pull out if there is no Silver Line, which would mean back to the drawing board. I know there was significant frustration around the inner-lining conversation that was teed off by ULI, and was just one of the many things that have slowed the process.

So the developers were never intrinsically attracted to developing adjacent to a new standalone Amtrak / regional rail station and were only interested in light rail.... but we signed a deal with them knowing the local light rail transit plan wasn't a done deal.... thus blocking progress on an Amtrak station? Gosh. Very logical. 

Especially frustrating given Raleigh has 0 light rail and has still seen their redeveloped Amtrak station spur a lot of development near a station that only sees a few inter-city trains per day. 

Edited February 2 by CLT2014

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

So the developers were never intrinsically attracted to developing adjacent to a new standalone Amtrak / regional rail station and were only interested in light rail.... but we signed a deal with them knowing the local light rail transit plan wasn't a done deal.... thus blocking progress on an Amtrak station? Gosh. Very logical. 

Especially frustrating given Raleigh has 0 light rail and has still seen their redeveloped Amtrak station spur a lot of development near a station that only sees a few inter-city trains per day. 

I am not trying to speak for Ricky Davis Fan, but my understanding of this process was:

a) the developer has very little interest in the intercity rail station, they are simply building it because it was a requirement for the RFP and land 'grant'. In the absence of the Red Line (which was the case for all of Gateway's lifetime until the past few months), the intercity rail component of the station is not going to deliver much foot traffic to the district. Every rendering I have seen features this relatively small, stand-alone building, which is not well integrated into the surrounding development.

b) the Silver Line will bring orders of magnitude more foot traffic to the district and it is likely important to the project penciling. However the big question that the Silver Line brings is its exact routing through the district along with its rail trail  (I believe this routing is still in flux  due to the interlining / route revision discussions that are hanging out there like a lingering fart). I am getting a sense that the city has not finalized a route, which means the developer really can't proceed with design work. [and the roads first transit plan may kill off the Silver Line]

This just reinforces the fact that the longer we go without a transit plan, the craptier our urban built environment will become.

Edited February 2 by kermit

[jthomas]

IF (and clearly that's a big if) anyone cared about the intercity rail portion of this project, you could build a sidewalk and dropoff lane in the space available now, knock out the panels circled in red, and start running trains uptown in a matter of weeks. Heck, you wouldn't even have to close the current station if it was important to have station facilities somewhere - trains could stop at both stations. Just give people the ability to get on/off the train uptown if they want!

[CLT Development]

30 minutes ago, kermit said:

I am not trying to speak for Ricky Davis Fan, but my understanding of this process was:

a) the developer has very little interest in the intercity rail station, they are simply building it because it was a requirement for the RFP and land 'grant'. In the absence of the Red Line (which was the case for all of Gateway's lifetime until the past few months), the intercity rail component of the station is not going to deliver much foot traffic to the district. Every rendering I have seen features this relatively small, stand-alone building, which is not well integrated into the surrounding development.

b) the Silver Line will bring orders of magnitude more foot traffic to the district and it is likely important to the project penciling. However the big question that the Silver Line brings is its exact routing through the district along with its rail trail  (I believe this routing is still in flux  due to the interlining / route revision discussions that are hanging out there like a lingering fart). I am getting a sense that the city has not finalized a route, which means the developer really can't proceed with design work. [and the roads first transit plan may kill off the Silver Line]

This just reinforces the fact that the longer we go without a transit plan, the craptier our urban built environment will become.

This is mostly correct, though I wouldn't say the Amtrak is of " very little interest." It still is a very important component, its just that 11,000,000 a year (silver line potential) is much different than the 522,000 a year (Carolinian Current) The only thing I question is "Every rendering I have seen features this relatively small, stand-alone building, which is not well integrated into the surrounding development." can you clarify this statement @kermit  Because every rendering I have seen is incredibly well integrated with the surrounding development. 

Accommodating the Silver Line is among the largest logistical hurdles for this project. They cannot finalize a project without knowing where to include either a tunnel under the property (one of the plans I've seen) or a separate above or beside. Raleigh's is done for a few simple reasons 1. Its not a logistics nightmare. 2. They already had a building 3. They got a lot of federal and state grants. 4. Their building cost just like $4M more than what phase 1 of Gateway cost for what has already been completed. Which was just track/alignment work and pouring the platform.

Admittedly I just know what is going on behind the scenes from getting feedback in chunks over the past 4.5 years (wow its been 4.5 years). I do not have a high level understanding of the specific needs of Amtrak. 

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

This is mostly correct. The only thing I question is "Every rendering I have seen features this relatively small, stand-alone building, which is not well integrated into the surrounding development." can you clarify this statement @kermit

basically this rendering  (and its derivatives ) gives me the vibe that the station is  plopped down in the middle of a much larger development with little thought towards making it a cohesive part of the larger project. This is entirely subjective on my part, and I will admit I know very little about the larger plan for the district.

(the lack of detail in the surrounding buildings drives some of this visceral (not intellectual) reaction.)

 

Edited February 2 by kermit

[CLT Development]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

 but we signed a deal with them knowing the local light rail transit plan wasn't a done deal.... thus blocking progress on an Amtrak station? Gosh. Very logical. 

I don't know that when we signed the deal, we weren't truly acting like the Silver Line was a done deal. One of the biggest reasons the Hines deal fell apart is because we didn't even control half of the land we were offering... Not presenting the correct information seems to be the city's calling card

22 minutes ago, kermit said:

basically this rendering  (and its derivatives ) gives me the vibe that the station is  plopped down in the middle of a much larger development with little thought towards making it a cohesive part of the larger project. This is entirely subjective on my part, and I will admit I know very little about the larger plan for the district.

(the lack of detail in the surrounding buildings drives some of this visceral (not intellectual) reaction.)

 

This has never been the plan for the station. This is the rendering that was created to get bids.
Below is the official rendering

The Red portion is the station. 

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[kermit]

12 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

The Red portion is the station. 

Given this I totally retract my statement about the station not being well integrated. Thanks for catching me up.

[CLT Development]

5 minutes ago, kermit said:

Given this I totally retract my statement about the station not being well integrated. Thanks for catching me up.

check your text messages 

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

So the developers were never intrinsically attracted to developing adjacent to a new standalone Amtrak / regional rail station and were only interested in light rail.... but we signed a deal with them knowing the local light rail transit plan wasn't a done deal.... thus blocking progress on an Amtrak station? Gosh. Very logical. 

Especially frustrating given Raleigh has 0 light rail and has still seen their redeveloped Amtrak station spur a lot of development near a station that only sees a few inter-city trains per day. 

Yet another reason I'm starting to wonder if there was something to what someone in NY told me when I shared I was moving to the Carolinas: "Charlotte is brawn, Raleigh is the brains."

[CLT2014]

2 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Yet another reason I'm starting to wonder if there was something to what someone in NY told me when I shared I was moving to the Carolinas: "Charlotte is brawn, Raleigh is the brains."

I mean... Raleigh is also way more car dependent IMO so I think they are shortsighted as well on many things. Their main employment center is one of the most sprawling office parks in the country. On this particular area though, I just wish we could get the station moving without it linked to the Silver Line as well which is a long shot. 

Edited February 2 by CLT2014

[CLT Development]

6 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Yet another reason I'm starting to wonder if there was something to what someone in NY told me when I shared I was moving to the Carolinas: "Charlotte is brawn, Raleigh is the brains."

I don't agree. I think the fundamental difference is Raleigh has the state, and thus the federal gov, for support. We just have the feds, and far less influence in that arena since Raleigh politicians still hold all the cards

4 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I mean... Raleigh is also way more car dependent IMO so I think they are shortsighted as well on many things. Their main employment center is one of the most sprawling office parks in the country. On this particular area though, I just wish we could get the station moving without it linked to the Silver Line as well which is a long shot. 

Really what I hate is that nobody has ever released the plan for Charlotte. I've had it since before Covid and it's a logistical marvel. Truly world-class. And the Station District stretches 5 full city blocks along Smith Street. I'm sitting here with a wealth of context that I wish I could share.

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[RANYC]

51 minutes ago, jthomas said:

IF (and clearly that's a big if) anyone cared about the intercity rail portion of this project, you could build a sidewalk and dropoff lane in the space available now, knock out the panels circled in red, and start running trains uptown in a matter of weeks. Heck, you wouldn't even have to close the current station if it was important to have station facilities somewhere - trains could stop at both stations. Just give people the ability to get on/off the train uptown if they want!

I can get behind the idea of Amtrak making 2 stops, including an Open Air Train Hall concept in Uptown that could go up pretty quickly.  Personally, I could give a rat's ass about high-rises.  

6 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I mean... Raleigh is also way more car dependent IMO so I think they are shortsighted as well on many things. Their main employment center is one of the most sprawling office parks in the country. On this particular area though, I just wish we could get the station moving without it linked to the Silver Line as well which is a long shot. 

Raleigh has R&D intensity and such R&D campuses around the country have been in more spread out/sprawling campus settings, a design that is finally starting to change.  

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, CLT Development said:

I mean that I expect the developers to pull out if there is no Silver Line, which would mean back to the drawing board. I know there was significant frustration around the inner-lining conversation that was teed off by ULI, and was just one of the many things that have slowed the process.

Also, is a revision to the transit plan in development?  Is the Silver line going away completely, or will there just be an abridged version of it that brings down the costs?  I've been under the assumption we'd instead have a Silver Line Phase I, half the size of what's currently proposed, with a Silver Line Extension coming down the road.  Phase I could get you from Oakhurst to the Airport, perhaps?  I wasn't interpreting "Roads FIrst" as the death knell for the Silver Line, but nothing I get from the city seems coherent or totally thought through.

Edited February 2 by RANYC

[CLT Development]

7 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Also, is a revision to the transit plan in development?  Is the Silver line going away completely, or will there just be an abridged version of it that brings down the costs?  I've been under the assumption we'd instead have a Silver Line Phase I, half the size of what's currently proposed, with a Silver Line Extension coming down the road.  Phase I could get you from Oakhurst to the Airport, perhaps?  I wasn't interpreting "Roads FIrst" as the death knell for the Silver Line, but nothing I get from the city seems coherent or totally thought through.

A revision is likely on the horizon.

The state would like us to focus on surface roads, highways, BRT and the Red Line, and they are who can allow us a sales tax increase. I'm fine with all that, but I think the Silver Line is a win that can be done cheaper by 1. Making it shorter and 2. Start building it sooner. We need to stop pretending Light Rail is commuter Rail. We should not be planning an extension to Ballantyne, and we should not be planning on having stations beyond our county line.

Edited February 2 by CLT Development

[CLT2014]

6 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

The state would like us to focus on surface roads, highways, BRT and the Red Line, and they are who can allow us a $.01 tax increase

Also given the reality of politics, the Silver Line offers nothing politically to the GOP controlled General Assembly. It runs through solidly blue districts for both US Congress and the State House and State Senate. The Red Line is palatable because they can take credit in a more GOP-leaning portion of Mecklenburg for bringing them a train they want and score some points to win / keep voters in the North Meck districts. It is completely to the GOP General Assembly members interest to block the Silver Line. The people that care about it aren't voting for them anyhow, but they may win over some anti-transit voters. 

Really at this point in the game... we are stuck in a cycle where representatives that don't represent Charlotte can score some points by being anti-big city and block local citizens from controlling their own decisions about what taxes they want and where they spend it. 

Edited February 2 by CLT2014

[CLT Development]

3 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Also given the reality of politics, the Silver Line offers nothing politically to the GOP controlled General Assembly. It runs through solidly blue districts for both US Congress and the State House and State Senate. The Red Line is palatable because they can take credit in a more GOP-leaning portion of Mecklenburg for bringing them a train they want and score some points to win / keep voters in the North Meck districts. It is completely to the GOP General Assembly members interest to block the Silver Line. The people that care about it aren't voting for them anyhow, but they may win over some anti-transit voters. 

Really at this point in the game... we are stuck in a cycle where representatives that don't represent Charlotte can score some points by being anti-big city and block local citizens from controlling their own decisions about what taxes they want and where they spend it. 

BINGO

[RANYC]

7 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Also given the reality of politics, the Silver Line offers nothing politically to the GOP controlled General Assembly. It runs through solidly blue districts for both US Congress and the State House and State Senate. The Red Line is palatable because they can take credit in a more GOP-leaning portion of Mecklenburg for bringing them a train they want and score some points to win / keep voters in the North Meck districts. It is completely to the GOP General Assembly members interest to block the Silver Line. The people that care about it aren't voting for them anyhow, but they may win over some anti-transit voters. 

Really at this point in the game... we are stuck in a cycle where representatives that don't represent Charlotte can score some points by being anti-big city and block local citizens from controlling their own decisions about what taxes they want and where they spend it. 

The city is depressingly slow and incompetent if they didn't think of this years ago.

[CLT2014]

7 minutes ago, RANYC said:

The city is depressingly slow and incompetent if they didn't think of this years ago.

I blame both the city and the state. The state should not be involved though. I don't like a representative from Shelby telling me what I can or cannot vote for in my county to score political wins. They don't live here. They don't know what is best for us. 

On the flipside... maybe the city shouldn't have even bothered with a transit plan knowing the state is not interested in giving Charlotte a political win when they can use that to their advantage. Just a waste of time.  The state and cities used to work together better, but the political climate changed really fast in the late 20-teens to cooperation being off the table on anything. Bi-partisan decisions don't happen at many levels of government any longer. 

Edited February 2 by CLT2014