Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[kermit]

This is info from Jason Orthner’s (director of NCDOT’s rail program) presentation today to the High Speed Rail Association (see the NC Passenger Rail thread for more details on the S-Line project):

NC Corridor ID grant submissions:

• Note the Winston-Salem- Charlotte route (over the O-Line) shown.
• Also note that the P&N tracks between Charlotte and Gastonia is shown as a new corridor [this might be new tracks for Atlanta HSR but I thought those were south of I-85?] (there was no discussion of either of these routes in the presentation)

On Gateway Station:

• Jason Orthner was very clear that "our portion of the project [tracks, platform and signals] was completed 'on time and on budget' in 2022"
• Then he said "we look forward to working with the developer selected by the city to complete this project" [I sensed some frustration but none was ever explicitly articulated]
• Targeted completion dates (2026-2027) were offered without comment or elaboration
• Airport connections for inter-city rail at Charlotte Douglas, RDU (probably just a shuttle rather than direct rail), and PTI were mentioned briefly. His words were "they are 'on our mind'" but these stations were clearly not yet in the planning process.
• He mentioned that the FRA has been involved in ensuring that sufficient capacity exists at Gateway station to allow for an interface with Georgia HSR to Atlanta. Also was clear that Atl-CLT HSR will terminate at Gateway Station (although trains may pass through the station)

At the start of the presentation Orthner did say that the S-Line project is being designed and built as a means of doubling the length of the NEC by extending it all the way to Charlotte (although the SEC will carry more freight than the NEC). Electrification was asked about, Orthner was clear that electrification is not part of the current projects BUT bridges and other overheads are being designed to provide sufficient clearance for Cat Wires. This discussion did not mention GA HSR (which will require electrification at the currently proposed speeds)

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by kermit

[Third Strike]

@kermitdo you think the P&N corridor would work well as a commuter rail line between Charlotte, Mt. Holly and Gastonia? Last I heard was that the NCDOT was struggling to get a freight rail company to lease the line. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Third Strike said:

@kermitdo you think the P&N corridor would work well as a commuter rail line between Charlotte, Mt. Holly and Gastonia? Last I heard was that the NCDOT was struggling to get a freight rail company to lease the line. 

I think the P&N looks great for that on paper. Unfortunately, when you look closer at it, it is very curvy and indirect and misses most Gaston pop centers so it would be a LONG and low ridership trip between Charlotte and Gastonia. It might work as a regional rail route if the Gaston communities along the P&N were to ever start to densify (and Lowell is making some tentative moves in that direction), but its mostly a bunch of scrub land and the backside of subdivisions west of Mount Holly. This route is paradoxically bad for both industry and passenger rail (but pretty good for potential TOD). Honestly I think the P&N here would be best used for industrial economic development (connections to two Class 1 railroads, US 321 and I-85!), but I don't believe actively perusing land deals here is on the state's radar.

Charlotte to Mt Holly transit service could work really well (stops at Cedar Street, Wesley Heights, Savona Mill, Lakewood, Hoskins, Paw Creek and Reventure). Extending those trains to Belmont (to connect to the still theoretical Silver Line) would be interesting for Eastern Gaston (but pointless as a CLT-Belmont route due to speed). Any transit service to Mt Holly would hinge on purchasing rights to the P&N bridge over the Catawba (CSX owns the bridge and surrounding tracks but not the remainder of the P&N). This negotiation wouldn't be too bad, CSX is pretty disinterested in their Charlotte subdivision and they could get by with just their original bridge.

Edited July 30, 2023 by kermit

[kayman]

There are initial talks at the moment to make Charlotte more of a passenger railway hub. It's 2nd to Atlanta as a major underserved origin-destinations travel/movement hub in the entire Southeast. The  direct connections would be Columbia and Wilmington, but Asheville via the Salisbury-Asheville route. However, FRA & Amtrak are spearheading those efforts apart of their much larger long-distance passenger railway study across the nation.

https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/ (this link will by updated in the near future and will be worth bookmarking as it will be have very informative data and information about why FRA & Amtrak wants Charlotte to be elevated to hub status like Atlanta)

NCDOT Rail & NCRR are aware of this but hasn't really considered anything except the Charlotte-Wilmington connection as shown on the (Federal) Corridor ID program being considered by the NCDOT Rail Division.  NCDOT is more interested in participating in federal corridor ID program apart of a seperate state-level study. 

https://railroads.dot.gov/corridor-ID-program

It will build up Raleigh's Union Station connections. 

However,  FRA & Amtrak officials have said their priorities are Charlotte and Atlanta with the LDRS study.  NCDOT & NCRR are once again putting Charlotte on the back burner...

Realistically, the O-Line/LE-Line (Charlotte to Winston-Salem route) could happen. Word is double tracking are in the plans for that proposed route.

https://www.cityofws.org/DocumentCenter/View/29901 (this is NCDOT initiated)

If it can be done, it will have to done with the assistance of CATS & NCRR concurrence of negotiations with Norfolk-Southern over the rights-of-way.  However, NCRR is going to have to prioritize this as its give for future leasing of usage with N-S of its own right-of-way to the Piedmont Triad area. The likely future (Charlotte area) independent regional transportation authority will have to also be apart of this to ensure that the Red Line commuter or regional rapid rail is in this agreement for the usage of the right-of-way portion from Uptown to the Mount Mourne area in Mooresville.

Edited August 3, 2023 by kayman

[blt23]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:08 PM, kayman said:

There are initial talks at the moment to make Charlotte more of a passenger railway hub. It's 2nd to Atlanta as a major underserved origin-destinations travel/movement hub in the entire Southeast. The  direct connections would be Columbia and Wilmington, but Asheville via the Salisbury-Asheville route. However, FRA & Amtrak are spearheading those efforts apart of their much larger long-distance passenger railway study across the nation.

https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/ (this link is worth bookmarking as it will be have very informative data and information about why FRA & Amtrak wants Charlotte to be elevated to hub status like Atlanta)

NCDOT Rail & NCDOT are aware of this but hasn't really considered anything except the Charlotte-Wilmington connection as shown on the (Federal) Corridor ID program being considered by the NCDOT Rail Division. They are more interested in participating in federal corridor ID program apart of a seperate study. 

https://railroads.dot.gov/corridor-ID-program

It will build up Raleigh's Union Station connections. 

However,  FRA & Amtrak officials have said their priorities are Charlotte and Atlanta with the LDRS study.  NCDOT & NCRR are once again putting Charlotte on the back burner...

Realistically, the O-Line/LE-Line (Charlotte to Winston-Salem route) could happen. Word is double tracking are in the plans for that proposed route.

https://www.cityofws.org/DocumentCenter/View/29901

If it can be done, it will have to done with the assistance of CATS & NCRR concurrence of negotiations with Norfolk-Southern over the rights-of-way.  However, NCRR is going to have to prioritize this as its give for future leasing of usage with N-S of its own right-of-way to the Piedmont Triad area. The likely future (Charlotte area) independent regional transportation authority will have to also be apart of this to ensure that the Red Line commuter or regional rapid rail is in this agreement for the usage of the right-of-way portion from Uptown to the Mount Mourne area in Mooresville.

Where in the long-distance study materials are you seeing a Charlotte hub?

I don't see anything proposing new long-distance routes to Charlotte, nor anything advocating for shorter routes like Charlotte-Wilmington or Charlotte-Winston-Salem (which don't make sense as part of a long-distance study, anyway).

[kayman]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:31 AM, blt23 said:

Where in the long-distance study materials are you seeing a Charlotte hub?

I don't see anything proposing new long-distance routes to Charlotte, nor anything advocating for shorter routes like Charlotte-Wilmington or Charlotte-Winston-Salem (which don't make sense as part of a long-distance study, anyway).

The links are active.  The heat maps of travel demand and recommended additional routes to and from Charlotte to Wilmington and Columbia are in the documentation of the FRA_LDSS.  (Just because it doesn't make sense as a part of a long-distance study to you doesn't mean the materials recommend otherwise.)

As it shown in the links above the Winston-Salem Urban Area MPO & NCDOT Rail Division are the ones pushing the Charlotte to Winston-Salem route as part of the NCDOT-led state transportation improvement program (STI/STIP) prioritization process NOT the FRA nor Amtrak.

 

FRA_LDSS_Southeast_Presentation_2.pdf SE_Mural_Exercise.pdf

[southslider]

Future NC Rail corridors range from already committed S-Line to highly unlikely O-Line.

[blt23]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:12 PM, kayman said:

The links are active.  The heat maps of travel demand and recommended additional routes to and from Charlotte to Wilmington and Columbia are in the documentation of the FRA_LDSS.  (Just because it doesn't make sense as a part of a long-distance study to you doesn't mean the materials recommend otherwise.)

As it shown in the links above the Winston-Salem Urban Area MPO & NCDOT Rail Division are the ones pushing the Charlotte to Winston-Salem route as part of the NCDOT-led state transportation improvement program (STI/STIP) prioritization process NOT the FRA nor Amtrak.

 

FRA_LDSS_Southeast_Presentation_2.pdf 7.36 MB · 9 downloads SE_Mural_Exercise.pdf 1.93 MB · 9 downloads

We clearly disagree on how to interpret  some of the group participation slides so I won't belabor that point but I will note that the IIJA text ordering the FRA long-distance study specified that it's basically a study of discontinued long-distance routes, and this is reflected on slide 16 of the meeting series 2 overview presentation where FRA clearly states that the study is an "assessment of routes over 750 miles" and NOT an assessment of state-supported routes or other higher frequency service. So it seems pretty apparent that the final long-distance study report/recommendations from the FRA won't include any shorter routes.

The O-line route may happen someday, but all indications so far are that Raleigh-Wilmington and Asheville-Salisbury are NCDOT's top priorities beyond Charlotte-D.C., and without them strongly pushing routes forward it's hard to see much progress being made any time soon. And Charlotte-Columbia would almost certainly be a SCDOT-led project, which seems even more unlikely to happen.

[kermit]

^ I think you are correct about what NCDOT is interested in pursuing and what is just on the wish list. I will say that the ARRA grants in 2009 were a missed opportunity for NCDOT. If they had proposed full electrification and 220 mph one new tracks in the NCRR row from Charlotte to Raleigh it would have gotten funded (after Florida and Ohio returned their money) — NCDOT really lacked ambition with their 1/2 billion request which was fully funded.  Unfortunately I don’t think any lessons were learned (they have a new director now), so its unlikely that NCDOT will ever make the necessary asks to create transformative passenger rail. I guess its just as well since the legislature will be unwilling to pay the necessary matching grants anyway. 

[DMann]

Here is a story about our current Amtrak Station:  any comments?????

https://www.thetravel.com/things-to-know-about-amtrak-charlotte/#amtrak-charlotte-station-offers-free-overnight-parking

 

[davidclt]

20 hours ago, DMann said:

Here is a story about our current Amtrak Station:  any comments?????

https://www.thetravel.com/things-to-know-about-amtrak-charlotte/#amtrak-charlotte-station-offers-free-overnight-parking

 

That clickbait story is a hot mess . . . most probably generated by AI and I'm measurably dumber having spent two minutes skimming it (but much enriched having spent 10 minutes skewering it, that was cathartic). Clearly "Brian" needs an editor and a fact-checker.

Some lowlights . . .

From the intro . . .  the station's strategic location ensures easy arrival and departure.

It's in the middle of nothing useful. It wasn't placed there with any grand strategy except get it out of Uptown 50+ years ago.

one of the most populous cities in North Carolina, Charlotte hosts two major routes . . .  Charlotte is the most populous city in the Carolinas, and I do believe the Crescent is major but not accounted for until later.

10.  Amtrak Charlotte Station Is Located At 1914 North Tryon Street (fact) . . . serves as a gateway to the heart of the city's downtown. The station’s position ensures that locals and travel enthusiasts effortlessly embark on their journeys or embrace the city's high spirit upon arrival. With a mix of contemporary design and Charlotte's rich history, Amtrak Charlotte Station echoes its role as a central service center for travel within the region. As such, as travelers make their way through the station, they encounter a convergence of cultures and experiences. Clearly written by someone who only visited the station by Google query and a laughably bad assessment of what passes for our Amtrak station.

9. There Is No Wi-Fi At Amtrak Charlotte Station (fact) . . . some travelers might find this station's lack of internet connection surprising or upsetting. However, Charlotte trains have Wi-Fi and other amenities that make passengers' trips more comfortable. Passengers waiting for their trains usually turn to activities, such as reading a book, jotting down thoughts in a travel journal, or simply gazing out of the station's large windows. The lack of Wi-Fi has not impeded communication; instead, it has enriched connections among travelers. I'm surprised they didn't count the delightful bathrooms as an amenity to enjoy while waiting. If only they provided ladders for the windows or gazing longingly at the lovely Channel 9 bunker across N. Tryon form the station. I've met some fine people at the station but did it enrich me, not much.

8. The Amtrak Charlotte Station Doesn't Sell Food Or Beverages (fact) Travelers may need to buy food from nearby restaurants or convenience stores, most of which are just a walking distance from the station take a nice leisurely stroll through a beaten down industrial area with minimal sidewalks and even fewer shops or restaurants.

7. The Amtrak Charlotte Station Offers Free Baggage Services (fact) not much I can snark on here.

6. Amtrak Charlotte Station Offers Free Overnight Parking (fact) Amtrak Charlotte lets travelers take advantage of their free overnight parking services for up to 72 hours. The aim is to alleviate the burden and expense of finding alternative parking options for passengers who drive to the station. So I did "learn" one thing here, I was unaware of the 72-hours limit on parking at the station - not sure it's a thing (and no limit is listed on the site Charlotte, NC (CLT) | Amtrak).

5 - 3 are facts about routes, tickets and the Piedmont including this gem, The train travels at a speed of 55mph, which is just enough to allow tourists and travel enthusiasts to appreciate the passing landscapes without feeling rushed.

2. The Bechtler Museum Of Modern Art Is Just 4 Minutes Away From Charlotte Amtrak Station (maybe if you arrive on The Crescent, hit all the lights right and the taxi does 60 down Tryon)

1. The Mint Museum Is 8 Minutes Away From Charlotte Station (note they include a picture of The Mint Uptown which is just across from The Bechtler which as noted above is a scant four minutes from the strategically located gateway to the heart of the city). I guess quantum taxi kicks in for that one remaining block or they timed the trip to the Mint Eastover coming from the Crescent, hitting all the lights juuuust right, etc.

As noted, a HOT mess.

Edited August 8, 2023 by davidclt
Added more thoughts on windows

[CLT2014]

TheTravel hires freelance writers in Kenya and other overseas countries who are paid by the hour to write articles for search engine optimization and clicks. You'll notice all of the imagery is cited back to a source like Shutterstock as the article writers have never been to the locations they are writing about.  Due to a lack of stock photos of the Charlotte Amtrak station... they turned to just using stock imagery of other Amtrak stations. They also heavily leverage Google Maps to try to sound knowledgeable. One of the best SEO strategies is doing "Top 10" lists because it gets shared for broad reach because people like to brag. You rank Greenville, SC as the #1 Hidden Gem and all of sudden the whole collective force of the city's tourism bureau is sharing the article everywhere "We were ranked #1!" TheTravel just watches the clicks rolls in and cha-ching. 

Only somebody who has never been to the Charlotte Amtrak station would write this....
"With a mix of contemporary design and Charlotte's rich history, Amtrak Charlotte Station echoes its role as a central service center for travel within the region. As such, as travelers make their way through the station, they encounter a convergence of cultures and experiences."

LOL. CLICK BAIT! BYE

Edited August 8, 2023 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, davidclt said:

That clickbait story is a hot mess . . . most probably generated by AI and I'm measurably dumber having spent two minutes skimming it (but much enriched having spent 10 minutes skewering it, that was cathartic). Clearly "Brian" needs an editor and a fact-checker.

As noted, a HOT mess.

aka you spent more time on this post than the actual "author" of the blog post. 

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, davidclt said:

5 - 3 are facts about routes, tickets and the Piedmont including this gem, The train travels at a speed of 55mph, which is just enough to allow tourists and travel enthusiasts to appreciate the passing landscapes without feeling rushed.

2. The Bechtler Museum Of Modern Art Is Just 4 Minutes Away From Charlotte Amtrak Station (maybe if you arrive on The Crescent, hit all the lights right and the taxi does 60 down Tryon)

1. The Mint Museum Is 8 Minutes Away From Charlotte Station (note they include a picture of The Mint Uptown which is just across from The Bechtler which as noted above is a scant four minutes from the strategically located gateway to the heart of the city). I guess quantum taxi kicks in for that one remaining block or they timed the trip to the Mint Eastover coming from the Crescent, hitting all the lights juuuust right, etc.

As noted, a HOT mess.

Can't wait to take the "Perlmont or Caroline" line to my office only 8 min from Charlotte Station. I tell ya what though, the 4 min I'm going to sit in traffic between the Bechtler and the Mint is going to make me go crazy. But hey, at least I'll be going to the "Largest Art Center in the Carolinas," which I'm pretty sure is NC Museum of Art, though after some research  this article says NC Museum of Art's collection is 5,000 objects, which is much smaller than I would have imagined, considering The Mint's collection is 33,000 objects.

[RANYC]

This Gateway Station situation seems out of hand.  Is this even being worked on at the moment?  Here's a quote & link from a November 2022 article in the Observer.  Who's this Lilias Folks John person advising on public private partnerships?  All she seems to post about is whatever work she did on the River District.  Or is this project out of her hands?

When the State finishes laying track for a new station and simply defers to the City on next steps effectively saying, "ball's in your court," then you know you're dealing with a City that loafs and goofs off.  State has a much larger territory to look after and when it meets its duties to a locale and the locale doesn't take the hand-off and have a plan, you know you're dealing with either a confounded organization or straight-up sluggards.

Charlotte City Council was supposed to be presented with a master development agreement this fall, according to an update given last year to the state Board of Transportation by Lilias Folkes John, public private partnerships advisor for the city of Charlotte. (btw, the article is 2022 so it means fall 2022 agreement submission).

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/development/article268176877.html#storylink=cpy

Edited August 20, 2023 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

Honestly a simple station should be built here in such a way that future towers could be built around it.  Raleigh's Union Station is a standalone building that will be next to a 33 story apartment tower with bus depot underneath. 

Greensboro see in learning from other places thread already has an Amtrak station, bus depot for local, regional and national buses in one connected facility downtown. 

[RANYC]

50 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Honestly a simple station should be built here in such a way that future towers could be built around it.  Raleigh's Union Station is a standalone building that will be next to a 33 story apartment tower with bus depot underneath. 

Greensboro see in learning from other places thread already has an Amtrak station, bus depot for local, regional and national buses in one connected facility downtown. 

Frankly, I’d take the Kannapolis station right in uptown.  It makes our current station north of uptown look like toilet tissue.  Would rather the Kannapolis version in the next 10 months than some grand, vanity concept that Lilias and Jones and their committees try to concoct that can’t even get off the ground this decade.

Do we think the issue might be Amtrak?

Edited August 20, 2023 by RANYC

[kayman]

15 hours ago, RANYC said:

Frankly, I’d take the Kannapolis station right in uptown.  It makes our current station north of uptown look like toilet tissue.  Would rather the Kannapolis version in the next 10 months than some grand, vanity concept that Lilias and Jones and their committees try to concoct that can’t even get off the ground this decade.

Do we think the issue might be Amtrak?

The problem is NCDOT does not prioritize what is going on with Charlotte, period. 

Several of the NC Board of Transportation members representing Charlotte themselves have said that during June BOT meeting here in Charlotte, the majority of the board members were completely unaware of how larger, more rapidly growing, and way more economically diverse the Charlotte area is compared to Raleigh-Durham.  As a result, Charlotte falls down the priority list of things getting done. Many of the BOT members don't venture beyond their rural areas, the OBX, or visit anything except Raleigh for state business. 

That's why I keep saying we should be aware of things such as this rather than blindly talking about how this or that should be. We actually have state officials who don't know or don't care (partly due to ignorance) about how Charlotte is the moneymaker & largest economic engine of the state but thinks that shortchanging or postponing things are the fault of the (part-time) Charlotte City Council.

It's totally the state's elected officials fault on this front.

Edited August 21, 2023 by kayman

[kayman]

On 8/6/2023 at 4:36 PM, blt23 said:

We clearly disagree on how to interpret  some of the group participation slides so I won't belabor that point but I will note that the IIJA text ordering the FRA long-distance study specified that it's basically a study of discontinued long-distance routes, and this is reflected on slide 16 of the meeting series 2 overview presentation where FRA clearly states that the study is an "assessment of routes over 750 miles" and NOT an assessment of state-supported routes or other higher frequency service. So it seems pretty apparent that the final long-distance study report/recommendations from the FRA won't include any shorter routes.

The O-line route may happen someday, but all indications so far are that Raleigh-Wilmington and Asheville-Salisbury are NCDOT's top priorities beyond Charlotte-D.C., and without them strongly pushing routes forward it's hard to see much progress being made any time soon. And Charlotte-Columbia would almost certainly be a SCDOT-led project, which seems even more unlikely to happen.

That's because NCDOT is Raleigh-centric and my prior response about the majority of BOT being unaware as proof. It's not hard to modernization improvements and activate the underutilized CSX-owned railway from Charlotte to Wilmington. Mainly because it would greatly benefit intrastate tourism and even that tourism beyond that if the state's largest city and region had a direct passenger rail route to Wilmington. 

SCDOT doesn't support anything unless there's a direct and immediate economic benefit hence why it would take both states  (NC & SC) elected officials to champion this route to be on prioritized.

[carolina1792]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

That's because NCDOT is Raleigh-centric and my prior response about the majority of BOT being unaware as proof. It's not hard to modernization improvements and activate the underutilized CSX-owned railway from Charlotte to Wilmington. Mainly because it would greatly benefit intrastate tourism and even that tourism beyond that if the state's largest city and region had a direct passenger rail route to Wilmington. 

SCDOT doesn't support anything unless there's a direct and immediate economic benefit hence why it would take both states  (NC & SC) elected officials to champion this route to be on prioritized.

This isn't accurate. The last major NCDOT rail project, Piedmont Improvement Project, one could say benefitted Charlotte the most by having the full length of the rail lines between Charlotte and Greensboro be fully double tracked. The line between Greensboro and Raleigh got marginal improvements of a few rail bridges and some passing rail on a very short section. This is one of the reason the Triangle Commuter Rail project would cost $3 billions. Most of the cost would be to fully add a second rail line between Raleigh and Durham. The Raleigh Union Station was largely funded by the city of Raleigh and federal grants. 

[kayman]

8 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

This isn't accurate. The last major NCDOT rail project, Piedmont Improvement Project, one could say benefitted Charlotte the most by having the full length of the rail lines between Charlotte and Greensboro be fully double tracked. The line between Greensboro and Raleigh got marginal improvements of a few rail bridges and some passing rail on a very short section. This is one of the reason the Triangle Commuter Rail project would cost $3 billions. Most of the cost would be to fully add a second rail line between Raleigh and Durham. The Raleigh Union Station was largely funded by the city of Raleigh and federal grants. 

Good for Raleigh that it built the Union Station by itself! 

However, that still doesn't negate that the majority of the BOT said themselves they didn't know the status of the Gateway Station and overall development.

If the oversight board doesn't even know what NCDOT is doing with the project they supposed to be in charge in Charlotte. FYI, Charlotte has tried to take the lead on the last couple of Gateway Station meetings but are directly told by NCDOT staff that this is state-led, i.e. NCDOT & NCRR project. Basically telling Charlotte, CATS, others local technical experts to fall back and take their lead. 

The state is intentionally micromanaging things here to slow down any  progress. Meanwhile always allowing things of this nature of rail transportation in the Triangle to mostly go through. It's not a coincidence that all the NCDOT Rail priorities are there and not here.

[kermit]

12 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

This isn't accurate. The last major NCDOT rail project, Piedmont Improvement Project, one could say benefitted Charlotte the most by having the full length of the rail lines between Charlotte and Greensboro be fully double tracked. The line between Greensboro and Raleigh got marginal improvements of a few rail bridges and some passing rail on a very short section. This is one of the reason the Triangle Commuter Rail project would cost $3 billions. Most of the cost would be to fully add a second rail line between Raleigh and Durham. The Raleigh Union Station was largely funded by the city of Raleigh and federal grants. 

I don't think you are suggesting otherwise but to be clear, the double tracking from Charlotte to Greensboro in the ARRA was not a political decision, it was driven by Norfolk Southern's demands. The Norfolk Southern freight main line includes the Charlotte to Greensboro tracks (and then runs north to Danville and DC). The tracks to the east of Greensboro are just a branch on the NS network and those tracks see MUCH less freight traffic than CLT-Greensboro, so there was no pressure from NS for double tracking there in order to run 5-6 Piedmonts per day. I do agree that Triangle commuter rail would have just been a chip shot if the ARRA had paid for double tracking there. While its (sorta) apples and oranges, the CLT-GSO double tracking was around $500 million, spending double that on Hillsborough-Clayton double track would have allowed Triangle commuter rail to be built at a still reasonable price (I still have no idea what caused the cost to spiral to $ three times that)

Edited August 21, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

Good for Raleigh that it built the Union Station by itself! 

However, that still doesn't negate that the majority of the BOT said themselves they didn't know the status of the Gateway Station and overall development.

If the oversight board doesn't even know what NCDOT is doing with the project they supposed to be in charge in Charlotte. FYI, Charlotte has tried to take the lead on the last couple of Gateway Station meetings but are directly told by NCDOT staff that this is state-led, i.e. NCDOT & NCRR project. Basically telling Charlotte, CATS, others local technical experts to fall back and take their lead. 

The state is intentionally micromanaging things here to slow down any  progress. Meanwhile always allowing things of this nature of rail transportation in the Triangle to mostly go through. It's not a coincidence that all the NCDOT Rail priorities are there and not here.

It seems like a smart idea of NC to focus on the Triangle over Charlotte though (if it comes down to prioritizing).  With that CSX deal that VA is footing the bill for several Billion that even crosses into NC. Seems like low hanging fruit to go all in to the Triangle plugging them into the NEC & being a gateway to the South (doesn’t it split into two right there?) Plus VA prioritizing the Richmond-Raleigh corridor & footing a huge part of the cost (or else why purchase the CSX S line.)

Anything else in NC is going to be difficult, no? I don’t know anything about the railroads except it’s a B word to work with the railroads & acquiring ROW’s etc is a epically difficult? 

 

[kermit]

21 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

It seems like a smart idea of NC to focus on the Triangle over Charlotte though (if it comes down to prioritizing).  With that CSX deal that VA is footing the bill for several Billion that even crosses into NC. Seems like low hanging fruit to go all in to the Triangle plugging them into the NEC & being a gateway to the South (doesn’t it split into two right there?) Plus VA prioritizing the Richmond-Raleigh corridor & footing a huge part of the cost (or else why purchase the CSX S line.)

Anything else in NC is going to be difficult, no? I don’t know anything about the railroads except it’s a B word to work with the railroads & acquiring ROW’s etc is a epically difficult? 

 

In terms of the larger topic here, I dunno that I am willing to pin Gateway Station's delays on political issues at NCDOT / state politics, it looks largely like a local problem (along with the developer partner _really_ not wanting to build office space right now) to me. Back in 2009 (around the ARRA) the city could have pushed the state to lead on Gateway and I think they would have agreed, the city choose the PPP route instead.

In terms of statewide rail development, IMO you gotta separate your rail modes for this discussion. For intercity rail, yes Raleigh will be the gateway to the North thanks to the S-Line project. Raleigh also has one of the currently used routes to Florida as well (on CSX down to Hamlet and then Columbia), but CSX is making noises that may downgrade those tracks and realigning this Florida route (the Silver Star) to run via Charlotte (or Fayetteville and skipping Columbia) is likely. (the Star will probably be switched to the S-Line, if so it will run an hour faster (allowing for the Charlotte 'detour') and no longer stop in Rocky Mount/Wilson)

For commuter rail, the Triangle has three strikes against it already thanks to incredibly low-density land-use.  That low density dinged the ridership models which made the $3.2 billion cost look even worse which is why the feds cancelled it. Until the Raleigh and Durham can create some employment centers that have more than 40,000 workers in the walk shed (less than half of what was in uptown Charlotte pre-pandemic), and create some decent residential walkability in corridors (the areas around downtown Durham and Raleigh look nice, but they are not close to Southend/Dilworth density) real transit is dead there.

In terms of low-hanging fruit, intercity Raleigh to Wilmington service is a gimmie. Asheville intercity service has momentum, and will probably happen,  but spending money on that route is just stupid IMO. Its just too slow to be competitive with any other mode. Commuter / regional rail between Charlotte and Greensboro (e.g. every 30 minutes) is completely realistic and could be done at a very reasonable cost (but does not add a ton of new coverage). Connecting places like Goldsboro, Salisbury, Lexington and Thomasville to bigger places would have a big political payoff in Raleigh as well.  Before Triangle commuter rail got cancelled it was being said that commenter service from Henderson -- Raleigh -- Sanford was very likely, not sure how that is looking after the demise of Durham-Clayton service however. Bringing Winston into the rail network is another priority and it could happen quickly depending on how the FRA new route grants go.

As for transit in the Triangle: Raleigh is going all-in on BRT (which was intended to feed commuter rail), but I have my doubts that it will create the same sort of densification that we have seen along the Blue Line (developers don't see BRT as 'permanent' enough and Triangle area NIMBYs are legendary). Decent LRT in Durham (I always wanted to see LRT on their freight rail beltline) could have given downtown the necessary critical mass. RTP is the other player in this system, they know they need to densify (research campuses no longer have much appeal), but they have been clear that their big redesign is contingent on governments providing transit to the Park, and that is still not on the horizon.

I grew up in Durham and I have great affection for the place. Unfortunately I am very pessimistic about its future largely due to its intractable land use problems. Add in a highly uncertain future for University funding from the state (look at what is happening at WVU right now, although the UNC system is in better shape) and the economic vibe of the place could change dramatically.

Edited August 22, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Back to the station itself:

back in the 70s and 80s Amtrak created a Standard Station initiative in order to build stations where the original was too decayed (or too big) to continue to use. They were affectionatly known as 'Amshacks' and sometimes they were little more than extra large phone booths. I remember these vividly since my dad frequently dragged me along on rail  fan trips throughout Appalachia. They weren't -that- bad for low-volume stops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Standard_Stations_Program

Our current station was not part of this program, it was originally built for Southern RR office space and was repurposed to station use in the 60s.

One of these beside the platform at Gateway would suck, but it would still be better than our current station.

The current Detroit station was built as part of this program (below). Also Cleveland and Richmond Staples Mill.

This was the Durham station until about 5 years ago (we should have just trailered it to 4th street)

 

Other random Amshacks:

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by kermit