Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[ajfunder]

Amtrak posted a video touting their achievements in 2023. The opening clip is a familiar location that ironically passengers may not get to enjoy for years at this rate….

The city needs to get its crap together and flex its muscles a little bit with the developer, or at the very least find a temporary solution. Heck, I’d board a train there in a mobile trailer over the current station.

[RANYC]

15 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Amtrak posted a video touting their achievements in 2023. The opening clip is a familiar location that ironically passengers may not get to enjoy for years at this rate….

The city needs to get its crap together and flex its muscles a little bit with the developer, or at the very least find a temporary solution. Heck, I’d board a train there in a mobile trailer over the current station.

I've said something similar, that I'd gladly board a version of Gateway station that looks like the one in Kannapolis.  We set our sights so far aloft, that we lose track of the ground where the work must be done.  Unfortunately, our council representatives appear to be distracted and disoriented.

[Reverie39]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:34 AM, ajfunder said:

Amtrak posted a video touting their achievements in 2023. The opening clip is a familiar location that ironically passengers may not get to enjoy for years at this rate….

The city needs to get its crap together and flex its muscles a little bit with the developer, or at the very least find a temporary solution. Heck, I’d board a train there in a mobile trailer over the current station.

[upbeat music] gives this image great meme potential.

[CLT Development]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:34 AM, ajfunder said:

Amtrak posted a video touting their achievements in 2023. The opening clip is a familiar location that ironically passengers may not get to enjoy for years at this rate….

The city needs to get its crap together and flex its muscles a little bit with the developer, or at the very least find a temporary solution. Heck, I’d board a train there in a mobile trailer over the current station.

The developer has nothing to with it, it's everyone else that's holding up the process (NCDOT, CDOT, CATS, CLT, Meck, NC, ETC). That said I was told a few months back that we should have news about a temporary station on site. Renee Johnson scuttled the previous plan which was to move Greyhound to University City Station's parking deck, which would have allowed them to move the temporary greyhound station closer to the platform and utilize that as a station until all the economic indicators that green light development improve. Greyhound needing a home is the current thing holding this back from happening.

Edited December 4, 2023 by CLT Development

[carolinaboy]

32 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

The developer has nothing to with it, it's everyone else that's holding up the process (NCDOT, CDOT, CATS, CLT, Meck, NC, ETC). That said I was told a few months back that we should have news about a temporary station on site. Renee Johnson scuttled the previous plan which was to move Greyhound to University City Station's parking deck, which would have allowed them to move the temporary greyhound station closer to the platform and utilize that as a station until all the economic indicators that green light development improve. Greyhound needing a home is the current thing holding this back from happening.

Could Greyhound be located in the CTC? Seems logical (to me).

[kermit]

The one where NCDOT tells Wilmore's NIMBYs to F' off with their complaints about the passenger rail equipment maintenance facility. [my language not theirs] 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/12/04/ncdot-rail-amtrak-charlotte-center-city-partners.html

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, CLT Development said:

The developer has nothing to with it, it's everyone else that's holding up the process (NCDOT, CDOT, CATS, CLT, Meck, NC, ETC). That said I was told a few months back that we should have news about a temporary station on site. Renee Johnson scuttled the previous plan which was to move Greyhound to University City Station's parking deck, which would have allowed them to move the temporary greyhound station closer to the platform and utilize that as a station until all the economic indicators that green light development improve. Greyhound needing a home is the current thing holding this back from happening.

I got the impression that the city informed Renee Johnson about the U City Parking Deck plans at the last minute, just before Council was to vote on the change.  I don't know much about Renee Johnson, but based on my observations of her comments on Council and in Committees over the past year, you'd best make her a stakeholder in any of your plans and intentions in her district or she's going to raise Cain.  

1 hour ago, kermit said:

The one where NCDOT tells Wilmore's NIMBYs to F' off with their complaints about the passenger rail equipment maintenance facility. [my language not theirs] 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/12/04/ncdot-rail-amtrak-charlotte-center-city-partners.html

This isn't your classic NIMBYism though.  Aren't these advocates for more urban residential density over big-box heavy-industrial?

[kermit]

50 minutes ago, RANYC said:

This isn't your classic NIMBYism though.  Aren't these advocates for more urban residential density over big-box heavy-industrial?

Maybe, but I am skeptical. Their suggestions for what the site could become seem to completely ignore existing environmental, topographical and noise issues (along with the 200 ft width of the NS ROW). I have not been able to take their advocacy seriously since they seem to be unwilling/unable to engage with current conditions on the ground.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by kermit

[CLT Development]

7 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Could Greyhound be located in the CTC? Seems logical (to me).

CTC's lifespan is also temporary. 

[49er]

Flip flop and put Greyhound at the existing Amtrak Station for the time being. 

[carolinaboy]

I wonder if the existing Amtrak station (or at least the site) could become a new CTC where city bus service and Greyhound could co-locate. Obviously keep Amtrak there while Gateway Station is being built. Then the current CTC site could be redeveloped not including a contentious bus transfer station. Begin building the Amtrak station at Gateway as phase 1 and the rest of the development as it can be. 

How about some type of dedicated bus/shuttle service that runs from the Blue Line and Gold Line stops at Spectrum Center to Gateway Station (Amtrak) to the airport at 15 minute headways? Also a bus/shuttle from said new CTC site to Gateway.

[wilmore]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

Maybe, but I am skeptical. Their suggestions for what the site could become seem to completely ignore existing environmental, topographical and noise issues (along with the 200 ft width of the NS ROW). I have not been able to take their advocacy seriously since they seem to be unwilling/unable to engage with current conditions on the ground.  

Do you actually have some materials on these issues? NCDOT has provided nothing, and the spokesperson they sent out did not bring any of these up, so I'm not sure how Wilmore would be expected to engage with these concerns. 

The meeting was mostly just Wilmore residents saying "it seems like this land is way more valuable" and NCDOT saying well, we don't know, we haven't done any work on this since 2002. 

[kermit]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, wilmore said:

Do you actually have some materials on these issues? NCDOT has provided nothing, and the spokesperson they sent out did not bring any of these up, so I'm not sure how Wilmore would be expected to engage with these concerns. 

The meeting was mostly just Wilmore residents saying "it seems like this land is way more valuable" and NCDOT saying well, we don't know, we haven't done any work on this since 2002. 

Most of this is either observational (the presence of a mainline RR, Interstate and difficult topography all reduce the value of the land for residential) or from public info. The 200’ ROW, and contaminated status of the parcel to the West of Summit is visible on Polaris (although I don’t know the details of the environmental issues). 

Looking at Sat images on Google maps makes me wonder if Frothy beard really needs to be removed (some parking maybe) since it is further from the action than the NCDOT building next door. Do the NCDOT plans show that the buildings need to come down?

I might also suggest that auto connectivity on this side of Mint is atrocious, I am not sure much additional commercial space can be supported by the current road network. It will certainly be a different story after the Silver Line, but who knows when that will be. In short, I concede that there might be an argument to be made that there is a higher and better use for the land, but I have not yet seen that be presented. What would the neighborhood association like to see on this land? Would they not complain about doubling the number of cars using Mint St?

Edited December 12, 2023 by kermit

[wilmore]

5 minutes ago, kermit said:

Most of this is either observational (the presence of a mainline RR, Interstate and difficult topography all reduce the value of the land for residential) or from public info. The 200’ ROW, and contaminated status of the parcel to the West of Summit is visible on Polaris (although I don’t know the details of the environmental issues). 

Looking at Sat images on Google maps makes me wonder if Frothy beard really needs to be removed (some parking maybe) since it is further from the action than the NCDOT building next door. Do the NCDOT plans show that that buildings need to come down?

I might also suggest that auto connectivity on this side of Mint is atrocious, I am not sure much additional commercial space can be supported by the current road network. It will certainly be a different story after the Silver Line, but who knows when that will be. There might be an argument to be made that there is a high and better use for the land, but I have not yet seen that offered. What is it that the neighborhood association would like to see on this land? Would they not complain about doubling the number of cars using Mint St?

The original plans show the Frothy building coming down, but they are pretty clear that none of that is final, and it sounds like the eventual reality would lead to these being bargained away. 

I think some individuals seem to think there could be a 20-story building or some sort of multi-use facility there. It's true that Mint St is a bit of a traffic issue, and one of the few things that NCDOT has done here is studied that the train facility would not lead to much more additional traffic (how could it, there wouldn't be that many people working there). 

People did get very excited when they talked about putting a building *over* the train facility, kind of like Ogilvie station in Chicago. 

[kermit]

On 11/30/2023 at 9:27 AM, kermit said:

We should hear something on the status of the 13 corridor ID grants that were submitted by NCDOT for funding this month (I would think in the next two weeks). These grants are intended to pay for feasibility studies of future route development. I would bet that Raleigh-Richmond, Raleigh-Wilmington and Salisbury-Asheville (ugh) get funded for sure. The big question for us is if Charlotte-Winston gets funded (it’s a coin flip IMO). Federal interest in those tracks would make Red Line construction MUCH more realistic (and I assume they would study a connection at Barber to allow for potential Charlotte-Asheville trains as part of that grant).

Charlotte to Kings Mountain was also submitted for consideration (as was Charlotte-Atlanta) so its possible that planning for the much discussed airport station could emerge from this process as well. I doubt any real construction would get federal funds South of Uptown without firm commitments from GADOT on increased Atlanta service however.

While these grants are small, this announcement will determine what routes will be in the running for future funding (routes not making the cut can be forgotten about for at least a generation). With our 13 proposals, this announcement will arguably be the biggest news on NC rail expansion ever. Waiting patiently….

Announcements are starting to leak out of Congress (Brightline West LA-Las Vegas got a big award). Expect news for NC between now and Friday.

https://t.co/Zgs0RqSpT4

[CLT Development]

3 hours ago, 49er said:

Flip flop and put Greyhound at the existing Amtrak Station for the time being. 

The reasoning for University City is the Blue line being RIGHT THERE. Putting at Amtrak makes it only really available to one bus line.

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Announcements are starting to leak out of Congress (Brightline West LA-Las Vegas got a big award). Expect news for NC between now and Friday.

https://t.co/Zgs0RqSpT4

someone posted this in the Richmond UP about the S line between Raleigh and Richmond:

""Speaking of Richmond to Raleigh, I’ve heard rumors that the Richmond to Raleigh corridor will receive $1 billion in funding to be announced within the next few weeks as part of the FRA Corridor ID funds from the Infrastructure Bill.

The funding to be allocated will go towards the reconstruction of the abandoned S Line.

 

This will be huge for Richmond as it will shave over an hour off the travel time to Raleigh, which is currently over 3 hours by train. Also sets the groundwork for more service along that corridor in the future. 
 

Once the official announcement has been made, I’ll make sure to post it (unless someone beats me to it!)""

[CltFlyer]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Announcements are starting to leak out of Congress (Brightline West LA-Las Vegas got a big award). Expect news for NC between now and Friday.

https://t.co/Zgs0RqSpT4

Brightline from LA to Vegas is a very common sense one even at 3 billion.

Today on a Tuesday (a day of the week that typically sees less flights)  there are around 80 flights between the Los Angeles area and Las Vegas of those 73 are commercial flights and who knows how many thousands of cars going strictly between the 2.

Especially in an area where you are less constricted by population, this is a "low hanging fruit" market to fund improved rail transit and lower carbon emission.

 

 

 

 

 

[blt23]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

someone posted this in the Richmond UP about the S line between Raleigh and Richmond:

""Speaking of Richmond to Raleigh, I’ve heard rumors that the Richmond to Raleigh corridor will receive $1 billion in funding to be announced within the next few weeks as part of the FRA Corridor ID funds from the Infrastructure Bill.

The funding to be allocated will go towards the reconstruction of the abandoned S Line.

 

This will be huge for Richmond as it will shave over an hour off the travel time to Raleigh, which is currently over 3 hours by train. Also sets the groundwork for more service along that corridor in the future. 
 

Once the official announcement has been made, I’ll make sure to post it (unless someone beats me to it!)""

Sen. Tillis posted about it on social media earlier today.

[kermit]

The $1 billion for the S-Line to Richmond was quite a get (largest rail grant ever in NC). That may pay for the bulk of the necessary construction (its twice as much money as NCDOT got to double track Charlotte-Greensboro back in 2010). Tillis’ office did finally acknowledge the other corridor planning grants for NC. These are for just $500k for route planning. These grants are intended to do enough feasibility work to prioritize the next construction funding opportunities. The expected routes are here (Asheville-Salisbury, Raleigh-Wilmington, and Clt-Kings Mountain). One route that did not make the list was Charlotte to Winston which is a bummer since it would have really helped with the Red Line. 

The Atlanta-Charlotte route is the greenfield HSR route, not the existing Crescent route.

Raleigh will be set up for a very extensive array of commuter rail laid on top of these routes should they choose to pursue that (Fayetteville, Selma, Wake Forest, Durham and  Sanford)

https://www.tillis.senate.gov/2023/12/tillis-announces-3-5-million-in-grants-for-nc-rail-identification-and-development

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by kermit

[XRZ.ME]

So the consultant will get same 500K for study Charlotte to Kings Mountain and Charlotte to DC?

[15895]

I’ve said it before. The level of spending on rail transit has been historical and majorly game changing. The government is hardcore spending on urban issues. Charlotte needs progressive leadership because it’s raining federal $’s even with unfriendly Republican-led states.

The DOT will even be award billions in conversions and development along transit stations. I’ve mostly been following federal dollars for the Bos-Wash corridor + VA and my lord, I have no idea on how many dozens of billions in rail transit has been announced the last 2 years. California has had billions announced I though this year for HSR and again today a new $6Billion towards ($3B each) california HSR & Bright line Vegas - Inland Empire

Pete Buttigieg keeps reiterating - grants will go to projects that (I) are transformative and (II) big enough grants to move projects forward rather than a bunch of small impact projects (<1 mile streetcars) or grants that can’t fully push projects to start imminently. 

It’s been prettt obvious Raleigh was destined to be plugged into the NEC next and will have a fairly robust state-level network. I don’t think Charlotte will have as extensive as a network (geography and location of tracks) but I do think it’s the next logical extension and there Atlanta. Though I’ll be old or dead. I’m fine with Raleigh for now. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[CltFlyer]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

The $1 billion for the S-Line to Richmond was quite a get. That may pay for the bulk of the necessary construction (its twice as much money as NCDOT had to double track Charlotte-Greensboro back in 2010). Tillis’ office did finally acknowledge the other corridor planning grants for NC. These are for just $500k for route planning. These grants are intended to do enough feasibility work to prioritize the next construction funding opportunities. The expected routes are here (Asheville-Salisbury, Raleigh-Wilmington, and Clt-Kings Mountain). One route that did not make the list was Charlotte to Winston which is a bummer since it would have really helped with the Red Line. 

The Atlanta-Charlotte route is the greenfield HSR route, not the existing Crescent route.

Raleigh will be set up for a very extensive array of commuter rail laid on top of these routes should they choose to pursue that (Fayetteville, Selma, Wake Forest, Durham and  Sanford)

https://www.tillis.senate.gov/2023/12/tillis-announces-3-5-million-in-grants-for-nc-rail-identification-and-development

 

 

Unless there has been a major change in the prospective routing.  There appears to be a typo in the section about the Charlotte to Atlanta greenfield HSR.  The original proposal was for a stop in Anderson, SC.  If it is changing to Augusta, GA that would take it around 90 miles further south of the originally proposed route.

[Eastern]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’ve said it before. The level of spending on rail transit has been historical and majorly game changing. The government is hardcore spending on urban issues. Charlotte needs progressive leadership because it’s raining federal $’s even with unfriendly Republican-led states.

The DOT will even be award billions in conversions and development along transit stations. I’ve mostly been following federal dollars for the Bos-Wash corridor + VA and my lord, I have no idea on how many dozens of billions in rail transit has been announced the last 2 years. California has had billions announced I though this year for HSR and again today a new $6Billion towards ($3B each) california HSR & Bright line Vegas - Inland Empire

Pete Buttigieg keeps reiterating - grants will go to projects that (I) are transformative and (II) big enough grants to move projects forward rather than a bunch of small impact projects (<1 mile streetcars) or grants that can’t fully push projects to start imminently. 

It’s been prettt obvious Raleigh was destined to be plugged into the NEC next and will have a fairly robust state-level network. I don’t think Charlotte will have as extensive as a network (geography and location of tracks) but I do think it’s the next logical extension and there Atlanta. Though I’ll be old or dead. I’m fine with Raleigh for now. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Eastern
Please delete this post.

[Eastern]

2 minutes ago, Eastern said:

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’ve said it before. The level of spending on rail transit has been historical and majorly game changing. The government is hardcore spending on urban issues. Charlotte needs progressive leadership because it’s raining federal $’s even with unfriendly Republican-led states.

The DOT will even be award billions in conversions and development along transit stations. I’ve mostly been following federal dollars for the Bos-Wash corridor + VA and my lord, I have no idea on how many dozens of billions in rail transit has been announced the last 2 years. California has had billions announced I though this year for HSR and again today a new $6Billion towards ($3B each) california HSR & Bright line Vegas - Inland Empire

Pete Buttigieg keeps reiterating - grants will go to projects that (I) are transformative and (II) big enough grants to move projects forward rather than a bunch of small impact projects (<1 mile streetcars) or grants that can’t fully push projects to start imminently. 

It’s been prettt obvious Raleigh was destined to be plugged into the NEC next and will have a fairly robust state-level network. I don’t think Charlotte will have as extensive as a network (geography and location of tracks) but I do think it’s the next logical extension and there Atlanta. Though I’ll be old or dead. I’m fine with Raleigh for now. 

Expand  

Why are the Charlotte mayor and city council not advocating for money from the fed? Are they asleep, dead? Money like this may not be available again for decades. They could at least try to get some to start on the uptown train station, extend the blue line north and south.