Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Never a grand terminal station (all trains were on their way to Atlanta) but there was a downtown station roughly where Gateway is going. 

 

  Atlanta had 3(!) Beautiful stations that all were lost. The most recent being 1966.

[15895]

^ The topic that burns my nerves. 

It reminds me when Americans in general say “but our cities were built later than European ones”, the best retort is “but it was built exactly like Europe. America just destroyed it.”

I don’t know if y’all ever look up before/after pictures. But man, cities all over America like Kansas City, Tulsa, etc looked like the most grand European nations. Our Deep South cities should all look like New Orleans & Charleston and our larger ones a Charleston version of Philadelphia. 

America literally spent so much money to destroy all but a few cities. Even cities like Boston had huge portions gutted. The US Planned it. Erased it. And parking lots scars where once grand structures stood. All of our cities, even all of our Midwest heartland cities matched European grandeur. It took so much money, planning & time to destroy our cities and not rebuild…

Charlotte was a podunk town (population wise) and it had a lot of gems and an extensive streetcar network 

I’ll randomly choose Denver for a Before / After (note the tower that is narrow and pointy) that potentially looks like tens of thousands of homes destroyed in that picture. 

Washington’s Passenger Rail Network Before / After 

I believe rail would still be hugely popular in the US if we didn’t intentionally destroy it. Intentionally destroy our cities. It’s not even hyperbole. All US cities had a ton of streetcar service. We were as urban as Europe. 

To this day, our country is mostly designed to hurt cities. Or prevent their [urban] growth which is why I say we should stop saying “but my city grew in a different era” and say “our laws still target and suffocate our cities, burden our people with expensive vehicles, destroys our environment and creates nothing but traffic” . It’s the laws. It’s a system designed to segregate, that destroyed the city and the laws are nearly impossible to change to be fair to cities. We subsidize roads, highways (free highways, accidents that require ambulances and death, police to patrol traffic, repave, roads require less density which means tax revenue has a low floor before you have to build out to generate more tax revenue) etc. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

Here is the CBJ story on the expanded Wilmore rail service center: https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/06/12/amtrak-rail-yard-expansion-concerns-south-end-nc.html?ana=wsoc

Eric Spanberg says that the plan will close Summit, the plan shared earlier in the thread (which appears to be from NCDOT) shows that Summit will stay open. Hmmm...

(Spanberg usually gets these sorts of details right, but I really don’t think I am misreading the diagram posted above)

Edited June 13, 2023 by kermit

[PuppiesandKittens]

23 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

^ The topic that burns my nerves. 

It reminds me when Americans in general say “but our cities were built later than European ones”, the best retort is “but it was built exactly like Europe. America just destroyed it.”

I don’t know if y’all ever look up before/after pictures. But man, cities all over America like Kansas City, Tulsa, etc looked like the most grand European nations. Our Deep South cities should all look like New Orleans & Charleston and our larger ones a Charleston version of Philadelphia. 

America literally spent so much money to destroy all but a few cities. Even cities like Boston had huge portions gutted. The US Planned it. Erased it. And parking lots scars where once grand structures stood. All of our cities, even all of our Midwest heartland cities matched European grandeur. It took so much money, planning & time to destroy our cities and not rebuild…

Charlotte was a podunk town (population wise) and it had a lot of gems and an extensive streetcar network 

I’ll randomly choose Denver for a Before / After (note the tower that is narrow and pointy) that potentially looks like tens of thousands of homes destroyed in that picture. 

Washington’s Passenger Rail Network Before / After 

I believe rail would still be hugely popular in the US if we didn’t intentionally destroy it. Intentionally destroy our cities. It’s not even hyperbole. All US cities had a ton of streetcar service. We were as urban as Europe. 

To this day, our country is mostly designed to hurt cities. Or prevent their [urban] growth which is why I say we should stop saying “but my city grew in a different era” and say “our laws still target and suffocate our cities, burden our people with expensive vehicles, destroys our environment and creates nothing but traffic” . It’s the laws. It’s a system designed to segregate, that destroyed the city and the laws are nearly impossible to change to be fair to cities. We subsidize roads, highways (free highways, accidents that require ambulances and death, police to patrol traffic, repave, roads require less density which means tax revenue has a low floor before you have to build out to generate more tax revenue) etc. 

 

 

Europeans destroyed their cities much more than we have destroyed ours, in some countries (e.g., Germany in the 1940s).  Their cities were also built differently:

* By around 1900, unlike in the US, plenty of European cities had the same populations as they do today, so additional construction wasn’t as necessary in Europe after 1900.

* Europeans were more likely to live in multifamily housing in urban centers than we were and are (we preferred single family housing), so European cities had density beyond small urban cores, even in 1900; to the contrary, American cities have traditionally had dense commercial areas (“downtown”) surrounded by single family housing.  So even in 1900, American cities already were significantly different than European ones.

* Interurban and street railways were slow.  Even today, commuter trains around the US only average about 30 mph.  Amtrak often averages under 50-55 mph (for total trip times).  Even if railroad networks from 1900 were maintained, there wouldn’t be a huge market (and certainly not enough of a market to sustain them) for trips at that speed.

Charlotte is a beautiful, pleasant city, with an impressive downtown.  I’d rather have it than the Charlotte of 1920 or 1950 (even if everything back then was air conditioned).

[15895]

2 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Europeans destroyed their cities much more than we have destroyed ours, in some countries (e.g., Germany in the 1940s).  Their cities were also built differently:

* By around 1900, unlike in the US, plenty of European cities had the same populations as they do today, so additional construction wasn’t as necessary in Europe after 1900.

* Europeans were more likely to live in multifamily housing in urban centers than we were and are (we preferred single family housing), so European cities had density beyond small urban cores, even in 1900; to the contrary, American cities have traditionally had dense commercial areas (“downtown”) surrounded by single family housing.  So even in 1900, American cities already were significantly different than European ones.

* Interurban and street railways were slow.  Even today, commuter trains around the US only average about 30 mph.  Amtrak often averages under 50-55 mph (for total trip times).  Even if railroad networks from 1900 were maintained, there wouldn’t be a huge market (and certainly not enough of a market to sustain them) for trips at that speed.

Charlotte is a beautiful, pleasant city, with an impressive downtown.  I’d rather have it than the Charlotte of 1920 or 1950 (even if everything back then was air conditioned).

I disagree with a lot of things you said & I probably should be more respectful in giving a thoughtful reply but I’m so tired from work. 

Though I will say, it’s not so much about what Charlotte could have been. It is what it is - period. The past is the past. The Charlotte of today is what we have. 

My broader point is there are still sooo many laws that restrict what Charlotte can do. Some imposed by the state, some imposed by the city, Some imposed by the neighborhoods. But most annoying is the restrictions the state has on what policies Charlotte can pursue. Policies popular among Charlotteans and leadership but restricted by the state. I mean, NC purposefully crafted legislation in a very calculated way to halt transit expansion. Indiana just outright passed a law to ban rail transit (then they repealed it in an attempt to get Amazon HQ2.) 

Theres so many laws that very smart people drafted to sabotage certain urban areas. Im not saying how Charlotte should grow; rather, laws meant To restrict certain growth, initiatives or heavily subsidizing suburbs, automobiles, etc. In addition to housing policies, taxation etc. unfairly prevent certain initiatives from being achieved. I think the laws are more the reasons Charlotte is low density, will remain low density. Not because it was built in a different era. But because that laws intentionally make it so. 
 

The Silver Line hasn’t been sitting around and collecting dust because Charlotte can’t support rail transit because it grew up in an auto-centric era. 

The Silver has been killed indefinitely because the state passed laws designed to making funding it impossible. That’s a new law as of 2010 or whenever. I think rationalizations like the above are why Charlotte will not built the Silver Line. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[PuppiesandKittens]

12 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I disagree with a lot of things you said & I probably should be more respectful in giving a thoughtful reply but I’m so tired from work. 

Though I will say, it’s not so much about what Charlotte could have been. It is what it is - period. The past is the past. The Charlotte of today is what we have. 

My broader point is there are still sooo many laws that restrict what Charlotte can do. Some imposed by the state, some imposed by the city, Some imposed by the neighborhoods. But most annoying is the restrictions the state has on what policies Charlotte can pursue. Policies popular among Charlotteans and leadership but restricted by the state. I mean, NC purposefully crafted legislation in a very calculated way to halt transit expansion. Indiana just outright passed a law to ban rail transit (then they repealed it in an attempt to get Amazon HQ2.) 

Theres so many laws that very smart people drafted to sabotage certain urban areas. Im not saying how Charlotte should grow; rather, laws meant To restrict certain growth, initiatives or heavily subsidizing suburbs, automobiles, etc. In addition to housing policies, taxation etc. unfairly prevent certain initiatives from being achieved. I think the laws are more the reasons Charlotte is low density, will remain low density. Not because it was built in a different era. But because that laws intentionally make it so. 
 

The Silver Line hasn’t been sitting around and collecting dust because Charlotte can’t support rail transit because it grew up in an auto-centric era. 

The Silver has been killed indefinitely because the state passed laws designed to making funding it impossible. That’s a new law as of 2010 or whenever. I think rationalizations like the above are why Charlotte will not built the Silver Line. 

For the Silver Line, I view the issue differently:

CATS needs to find funding, to supplement federal funding, to pay for part of building the Silver Line.  CATS and some local leaders have proposed a sales tax increase for that funding.  The state legislature objects, as do some local leaders.  Without the state legislature’s approval, sales taxes cannot be increased.  The state legislature also has passed some legislation that adds complications.

I was involved in oversight of the Blue Line about 20 years ago.  If sales taxes cannot be increased, then obviously the solution to allow the Silver Line to be built is to find other sources of revenue (if costs cannot be cut).  Some additional federal funds may be available, but local governments would have to come up with the balance.   I would favor cutting other local spending and using some local funds instead for CATS, but not everyone would.

European countries face similar issues.  It’s not as though European transit systems just appear out of thin air and without the sausage-making that is part of the democratic process.

 

[kayman]

At this point, the only path forward starts with the formation of an independent regional transit authority with a regional governance board like Triangle Transit Authority aka GoTriangle or Piedmont Authority for Regional Transportation (PART) that covers the North Carolina counties and jurisdictions that would be along the LYNX Silver Line locally preferred alternative (LPA) (Mecklenburg, Gaston, and Union).  It would put to bed this improprieties that the CoC City Council is usurping the oversight of the Metropolitan Transit Commission on fiduciary decisions, internal audits, and organizational leadership of the LYNX regional transit (Blue & Gold rail lines, regional express buse routes, and METRORapid BRT-lite). That might win over the local jurisdictions outside of Charlotte like Mecklenburg County, Cornelius, Davidson, Huntersville, Pineville, Belmont, and Stallings to do more to support regional transit which includes assisting lobbying for it. Ironically, all of those aforementioned municipalities have all expressed support if the reorg occurs.

Edited June 15, 2023 by kayman

[cowboy_wilhelm]

The contract to build the Charlotte wye has finally been posted. Once awarded, work can begin in September and should be completed in the summer of 2025. The second platform at Kannapolis has been delayed until November. The Salisbury platform has been delayed until 2025.

Project proposal and plans.

[Third Strike]

ACWR has announced a Christmas train route, starting in the town of Star. Details of the route are still unknown, but it would be neat if Charlotte was the terminus (though I doubt it, especially if the Gateway isn’t done… Maybe NoDa near 36th Street?). Even if it isn’t Charlotte, hopefully it’ll run through the Uwharrie National Forest, which would be a scenic ride. 

[kermit]

^ It looks like its around 70 track miles from Star to NoDa. I am guessing the ACWR is mostly Class 2 track so passenger trains are limited to 30mph. This would make it an awfully long ride to Charlotte and back again (for a Christmas train).

[KJHburg]

My college roommate is from Star and I have been there many times though not on train.   This sounds great Maybe it will start in Midland or Oakboro out to Star and back. 

[drumsy]

In this article, https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-14/inside-amtrak-s-75-billion-plan-to-revive-us-train-travel?srnd=citylab, why does it mention adding new service to Salisbury, NC, when Salisbury already has service?

[kermit]

^ I got a laugh out of that too. Best I could figure is he saw the new Salisbury to Asheville route on the map and mistakenly assumed that Salisbury was going to be a new station.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Just now, kermit said:

^ I got a laugh out of that too. Best I could figure is he saw the new Salisbury to Asheville route on the map and mistakenly assumed that Salisbury was going to be a new station.

Beat me to it.. Probably this

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/2021/04/05/amtrak-service-asheville-salisbury-possibility-joe-biden-american-jobs-plan/4850514001/

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Charlotte to Charleston should be a priority before Atlanta, GA.  Charleston and Norfolk are the most important harbors on the East Coast after New York.

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, Phillydog said:

Charlotte to Charleston should be a priority before Atlanta, GA.  Charleston and Norfolk are the most important harbors on the East Coast after New York.

Savannah Ports are pretty important too

[jthomas]

It’s really a shame that Gateway Station is stuck in development limbo. It seems that all involved have forgotten that this should be a transportation project first and a development project second. The tracks and platform are complete - trains could be calling there today, but instead it will be some undefined number of years before that happens. Just like with the Silver Line, it seems like those in charge have fallen for the notion that rail projects will drive development, while forgetting that the reason that they do so in other places is because the rail projects are actually useful for transporting people to where they want to go. I really hope the temporary station plan will get a second look while waiting on the larger development plan to come together.

[drumsy]

https://www.salisburypost.com/2023/07/21/city-council-endorses-salisbury-to-asheville-train-service-project/

[Nathan2]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

It’s really a shame that Gateway Station is stuck in development limbo. It seems that all involved have forgotten that this should be a transportation project first and a development project second. The tracks and platform are complete - trains could be calling there today, but instead it will be some undefined number of years before that happens. Just like with the Silver Line, it seems like those in charge have fallen for the notion that rail projects will drive development, while forgetting that the reason that they do so in other places is because the rail projects are actually useful for transporting people to where they want to go. I really hope the temporary station plan will get a second look while waiting on the larger development plan to come together.

I can't remember the last time city council members have even brought it up. They are supposed to be advocated of these things and they just don't seem to care as with just about everything else for this city lately besides giving money to sports billionaires. 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:11 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Savannah Ports are pretty important too

Not without exports from NC I suspect.  I'd prefer to see us keep the $ in the Carolinas.

[DownEast]

Savannah is the #2 container port on the east coast. Exports come from all over the interior central south and even the Midwest. It's followed by VA and SC in that order. But, the need for passenger train service to important harbors has been non-existent since the use of passenger shipping liners all but stopped in the mid-20th century. Atlanta is a DC-sized gorilla deep in the south. Any improvement in train service to the north for them, adds frequencies/better service for us.

Edited July 22, 2023 by DownEast

[CLTranspo]

19 minutes ago, DownEast said:

Savannah is the #2 container port on the east coast. Exports come from all over the interior central south and even the Midwest. It's followed by VA and SC in that order. But, the need for passenger train service to important harbors has been non-existent since the use of passenger shipping liners all but stopped in the mid-20th century. Atlanta is a DC-sized gorilla deep in the south. Any improvement in train serviced to the north for them, adds frequencies/better service for us.

Thank you - I was confused why a freight port would need to be prioritized for passenger rail connections lol.

ATL-CLT should be prioritized for passenger rail just based on population and distance (the distance would make passenger trains competitive to flying)

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 7/20/2023 at 8:48 PM, Phillydog said:

Charlotte to Charleston should be a priority before Atlanta, GA.  Charleston and Norfolk are the most important harbors on the East Coast after New York.

The biggest obstruction to train service south is the state of SC. GA and the capital of the south to the second largest city in the south is CLEARLY more important route to the future of the growth of the region. Charleston is a relative backwater comparatively. 

[Third Strike]

I agree with the posts saying Atlanta is more of a priority than Charleston. However, if we ever get an Amtrak connection between Charlotte and Columbia, then maybe Charleston could be a future extension for this line. Though, an extension to Columbia would be pretty significant on its own, since it would connect with the Silver Star and allow easier access to and from Savannah and Florida. 

[queensguy06]

On 6/12/2023 at 4:30 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

America literally spent so much money to destroy all but a few cities. Even cities like Boston had huge portions gutted. The US Planned it. Erased it. And parking lots scars where once grand structures stood. All of our cities, even all of our Midwest heartland cities matched European grandeur. It took so much money, planning & time to destroy our cities and not rebuild…

I’ll randomly choose Denver for a Before / After (note the tower that is narrow and pointy) that potentially looks like tens of thousands of homes destroyed in that picture. 

I believe rail would still be hugely popular in the US if we didn’t intentionally destroy it. Intentionally destroy our cities. It’s not even hyperbole. All US cities had a ton of streetcar service. We were as urban as Europe. 

 

I don't disagree with a lot of your sentiments, but the demise of the streetcar was due to multiple factors all culminating at the same time and not an orchestrated "kill off" like a lot of transit enthusiasts believe. Here is an article that kind of sums up the main driving factors:

 https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562007/streetcar-history-demise

Additionally, I wanted to highlight your before/after photo of downtown Denver as I think that only paints part of the picture up to say the late 80s/early 90s. Below is a current picture of downtown Denver - the blue arrow points to where Lonnie's Clock Tower still is today, behind that large building on the 16th Street Mall (the mall is currently getting a giant face lift and renovations). The clock tower is currently home to a vaudeville style burlesque show that is rather entertaining https://www.clocktowercabaret.com/ Tucked behind the buildings in the forefront between the red arrows is where Union Station is located. Sprinkled heavily throughout LoDo are vintage buildings from the era of your first picture of Denver. I've included pictures of the station and Denver's RTD rail map, which is a mix of mostly light rail with some heavy rail and a BRT line. 

My point being is that cities, to me, can be equated to living entities that cycle through death and rebirth many times over mirroring generational trends good, bad, or indifferent. And with each iteration they grow and adapt, as seen between your photos of Denver and the one posted below. Even cities that we commonly think of as completely auto-centric like Los Angeles, continue to grow and evolve. And for all its faults, I frickin love LA. Transit adds to a city, it doesn't define or make a city. There are very, very few cities I wouldn't visit or live solely based on lack of mass transit.