Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, ajfunder said:

The fact that Charlotte-Columbia-Charleston is always left off these planning maps boggles me. Connect the largest City in the Carolina’s to the largest City in SC and what is probably one of the most popular Charlotte weekend/getaway destinations seems like a no brainer. Is that just me?

Who in their right mind would take the train over driving to the beach? It becomes even more of a no brainer if you're going as a family. On top of the fact that the Charleston Amtrak location is about as inconvenient for getting to the beaches as it could possibly be.

[kermit]

On 9/1/2023 at 9:06 PM, TCLT said:

Who in their right mind would take the train over driving to the beach? It becomes even more of a no brainer if you're going as a family. On top of the fact that the Charleston Amtrak location is about as inconvenient for getting to the beaches as it could possibly be.

Back in the Brady Bunch days it was very common for kids and mom to head to the NC coast for the bulk of the summer, the wage earner would then shlep back and forth from the Triangle, Triad or Charlotte on weekends. The train would be super helpful for all of these trips and it would help me out 3-4 times a summer. Seems like this scenario might have a bit of a resurgence in the remote work era. This has historically been a pretty typical beach trip model in NC, although as yankees continue to gentrify the historically redneck portions of the coast, its less feasible. 

But yes, the Charleston (and Savannah) stations are stupid. The yall’qaeda in Columbia is never gonna pay for rail in SC.  Trains to Wilmington on the other hand will work. The Wilmington station will be walkable to downtown, and very handy for this type of trip for Pender, Onslow, New Hanover and Brunswick counties (about half the NC coast).

Beach aside, Wilmington is a city that has long struggled to create (and keep) professional jobs. A connection to Raleigh that is painless, and allows work to be done in route, would be a major boon to the city’s productivity growth -- it could become the Research Triangle coastal annex.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Back in the Brady Bunch days it was very common for kids and mom to head to the NC coast for the bulk of the summer, the wage earner would then shlep back and forth from the Triangle, Triad or Charlotte on weekends. The train would be super helpful for all of these trips and it would help me out 3-4 times a summer. Seems like this scenario might have a bit of a resurgence in the remote work era. This has historically been a pretty typical beach trip model in NC, although as prices on the coast go up, its less feasible. 

But yes, the Charleston (and Savannah) stations are stupid. The yall’qaeda in Columbia is never gonna pay for rail in SC.  Trains to Wilmington on the other hand will work. The Wilmington station will be walkable to downtown, and very handy for this type of trip for Pender, Onslow, New Hanover and Brunswick counties (about half the coast).

 

During the brady bunch days the interstate system wasn't as robust and complete and not every family had an SUV. I think the demand for taking the train from Charlotte to Charleston for a beach weekend would be vanishingly small, even if the station was in a convenient location.

[Windsurfer]

10 hours ago, TCLT said:

During the brady bunch days the interstate system wasn't as robust and complete and not every family had an SUV. I think the demand for taking the train from Charlotte to Charleston for a beach weekend would be vanishingly small, even if the station was in a convenient location.

It's a shame we can't combine light commercial with passenger. I understand why, but still.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Windsurfer
spelling

[JacksonH]

10 hours ago, TCLT said:

Who in their right mind would take the train over driving to the beach?

I would!  I HATE that drive.

[jthomas]

12 hours ago, TCLT said:

Who in their right mind would take the train over driving to the beach? It becomes even more of a no brainer if you're going as a family. On top of the fact that the Charleston Amtrak location is about as inconvenient for getting to the beaches as it could possibly be.

No, taking the train to a beach vacation doesn’t make much sense, unless you’re talking about a day trip (train to Wilmington + light rail to the Johnnie Mercer pier in Wrightsville would be a great combo). But downtown Charleston and Savannah are draws in their own right. A downtown rail terminal in both cities that enabled car-free city getaways would be hugely popular IMO.

[TCLT]

21 minutes ago, jthomas said:

No, taking the train to a beach vacation doesn’t make much sense, unless you’re talking about a day trip (train to Wilmington + light rail to the Johnnie Mercer pier in Wrightsville would be a great combo). But downtown Charleston and Savannah are draws in their own right. A downtown rail terminal in both cities that enabled car-free city getaways would be hugely popular IMO.

I feel like there’s a massive overestimation of demand for rail trips on this forum. How many people realistically are going to be taking these city getaway trips you’re describing? Then, consider the fact that probably 95% or more of those people cannot access the rail terminals in any way but driving to them. Neither city is particularly accessible without a car outside a very small area with relatively limited things to do. And the train trip would not save much, if any, time vs driving. If you have to drive on either (but probably both) ends of the train trip, why would you not drive drive the whole thing? For anyone connecting from beyond Charlotte to get to Charleston the plethora of flight options are faster and probably cheaper. 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, TCLT said:

I feel like there’s a massive overestimation of demand for rail trips on this forum. 

Of course, this is a place where people come to discuss urbanism, I don’t think anyone would expect us to be pessimisitic. That said, I think you are straw manning inter city rail a bit, its not going to work for every trip, but it does not need to. Amtrak ridership is at all time highs on most of its routes, despite the fact that most of its destination suffer from the same last mile problems we are discussing here. Amtrak also pays for a far higher portion of its operating costs than highways do at current gas tax levels.

It seems pretty clear that 100% auto dependence is unsustainable. We gotta start providing transportation alternatives somewhere, and these first alternatives are going to struggle for a while until the last mile infrastructure gets built out. In the case of Wilmington-Raleigh, Raleigh is about to start construction on its BRT system, and Wilmington might see CSX eventually gift its intown tracks to the city after the new bridge gets built, which might enable some substantial transit development. 

IIRC Charleston is also in the planning stages for BRT that would (among other things) connect their rail station to the Peninsula, but as already said, SC aint gonna pay a dime for intercity rail.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

3 minutes ago, kermit said:

It seems pretty clear that 100% auto dependence is unsustainable. We gotta start providing transportation alternatives somewhere, and these first alternatives are going to struggle for a while until the last mile infrastructure gets built out.

I agree with this but when you’re dealing with extremely limited funds to build out infrastructure there’s gotta be a better justification than theoretical, and most likely nonexistent, demand for intercity getaways and beach trips. I imagine (correctly I assume given this route’s exclusion from planned expansion) there’s plenty of other potential higher impact opportunities out there.  

[kermit]

1 hour ago, TCLT said:

I agree with this but when you’re dealing with extremely limited funds to build out infrastructure there’s gotta be a better justification than theoretical, and most likely nonexistent, demand for intercity getaways and beach trips. I imagine (correctly I assume given this route’s exclusion from planned expansion) there’s plenty of other potential higher impact opportunities out there.  

Yea, expanded Charleston rail service is not happening at any point in the future because of SC’s strong anti-rail posture, its not on anyone’s realistic list (including Amtrak’s). GADOT does discuss Atlanta-Savannah service, and that (IMO) makes sense as a way to better tie its second largest city to the rest of the state. 

Raleigh to Wilmington is likely to happen in the decade-ish future. Two-thrids of the tracks are already owned by the state of NC, the other third are very lightly used by CSX (they really just move hog feed on those tracks) who is likely to offer their use at reasonable cost. NCDOT will also already own the equipment (and shops) necessary to operate this service as the Piedmont gear is modernized. Wilmington is a city that would greatly benefit from another connection to Raleigh, particularly as I-40 traffic grows increasingly unmanageable west of 95. The line would also connect Goldsboro to the Triangle, another -desperately- needed linkage. The Wilmington station site is in a rapidly growing portion of downtown. This line should do well with city based trips (including expanding ILM biotech research and UNCW). Using the train to get to the beach would be nice for a small handful of folks (me included), but beach traffic isn’t why the line makes sense. [although given the cost of parking at Wrightsville for day trips it might make financial sense to just uber there from downtown].

Are there better rail routes to focus on like Atlanta-Charlotte? Absolutely. But Wilmington-Raleigh service is a feasible, easy and relatively low cost way to add to the intercity network. It will probably be a reasonable, but not spectacular, performer, and it will have good connections to Charlotte and also the corridor. NCDOT rail needs to build on its current success where it makes sense, Wilmington service is their best (and most realistic) option outside the CLT-RGH-S Line corridor.

[I’ll admit that my view of Salisbury-Asheville rail service is very similar to your view of Raleigh-Wilmington. To me, that route makes zero sense, in part because there is less economic reason for that connection, partly because the trip will always be painfully slow, and partly because mountain tourist destinations are even more diffuse than coastal ones. But, like Wilmington, the tracks will be easy to get and they do tie into the growing state network.]

Edited September 2, 2023 by kermit

[jthomas]

5 hours ago, TCLT said:

I agree with this but when you’re dealing with extremely limited funds to build out infrastructure there’s gotta be a better justification than theoretical, and most likely nonexistent, demand for intercity getaways and beach trips. I imagine (correctly I assume given this route’s exclusion from planned expansion) there’s plenty of other potential higher impact opportunities out there.  

You’re right that places like Charleston and Savannah should not be the top priorities for expanding America’s anemic rail service given limited resources. But I agree with @kermitabout the need for alternative modes of transportation. Flying and driving are the best choice for many types of trip, but not all. There are many trips currently made by those two modes that would be better served by rail, if a frequent, reliable, and relatively fast rail alternative existed. In most cases, it does not, because rail has been starved of investment for 75 years in favor of highway and aviation infrastructure. That is the paradigm that needs to change. Those systems, while still needing maintenance and targeted upgrades, are largely mature. If we stopped pissing away billions on worse than useless highway expansion, and instituted the rail version of the interstate highway system with those funds instead, you would see a lot more travel by rail. And in that context, the secondary destinations become useful to serve. It’s the same reason why airlines serve places like Fargo or Shreveport - the network effect makes it worthwhile.

Edited September 2, 2023 by jthomas

[TCLT]

4 hours ago, jthomas said:

rail has been starved of investment for 75 years in favor of highway and aviation infrastructure. That is the paradigm that needs to change.

This is the biggest point though. IMO, long distance and intercity rail is a losing proposition unless and until the entirety of government policy and funding shifts from prioritizing suburban development, sprawl, and auto dependent land use to dense urban development and mass transit. Throwing token funds at incremental money losing routes is not going to meaningfully attract riders or change anything about American cities or transportation patterns. If we're going to continue in the current paradigm, then rail routes should be tied explicitly to local/regional transit investment and should really be confined to regional routes where trip times can actually be somewhat competitive with flying or driving. Outside of the northeast corridor of course which has proven to be able to support rail travel as a viable alternative transportation option. But then I guess the point of Amtrak isn't really to make money, so why not build out routes no one is going to use in the quixotic hope something will somehow change if we connect one more midsize city to the network.

9 hours ago, kermit said:

It will probably be a reasonable, but not spectacular, performer

Out of curiosity, how are rail routes judged on performance? Is it raw pax numbers, profitability, something else? Is any of that info public? I can't find anything in the reports Amtrak and NCRR put out.

[kermit]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:38 PM, TCLT said:

This is the biggest point though. IMO, long distance and intercity rail is a losing proposition unless and until the entirety of government policy and funding shifts from prioritizing suburban development, sprawl, and auto dependent land use to dense urban development and mass transit. Throwing token funds at incremental money losing routes is not going to meaningfully attract riders or change anything about American cities or transportation patterns. If we're going to continue in the current paradigm, then rail routes should be tied explicitly to local/regional transit investment and should really be confined to regional routes where trip times can actually be somewhat competitive with flying or driving. Outside of the northeast corridor of course which has proven to be able to support rail travel as a viable alternative transportation option. But then I guess the point of Amtrak isn't really to make money, so why not build out routes no one is going to use in the quixotic hope something will somehow change if we connect one more midsize city to the network.

IMO the biggest obstacle in reducing auto dependence is that everybody thinks something needs to happen before we can make big changes. "We can't change zoning (or limit parking) to increase density without more transit," "we can't build transit because we don't have enough density, so no one will ride it.” Nothing is going to ever change if we keep saying "but we need to do this other thing first'.  I might argue that inter-city rail can work better in a auto-oriented landuse than intra-city transit since last mile problems can generally be handled the same way we deal with airport trips, why would trains be materially different in this regard?

I might suggest that the 'money loosing routes' thing is another strawman. Yes, most Amtrak routes loose money, but it can be argued that they actually move people with less subsidy that cars do at current gas tax rates. Most forms of transportation loose money when you look closely, rail does pretty well on a comparative basis.

FWIW Virginia's rail expansion program is budgeted at $3.7 billion in state funds for capital costs (mostly for new track from Richmond to DC). They felt this expenditure was reasonable because they recognized rail expansion would be much cheaper than widening I-95. NC will face this same situation with I-85 between Charlotte and Durham before long.

On 9/2/2023 at 8:38 PM, TCLT said:

Out of curiosity, how are rail routes judged on performance? Is it raw pax numbers, profitability, something else? Is any of that info public? I can't find anything in the reports Amtrak and NCRR put out.

Amtrak generally talks about 'above the rail cost recovery'. It is basically operational costs + equipment capital costs + the fees paid to host railroads which cover maintenance expenses. This measure does not include the capital costs of the track which kinda makes sense since most of the network is owned by freight railroads (and most of those received land grants in return for the promise of passenger service).  Just before Covid, Amtrak was running at around 80% cost recovery system wide (IIRC). The Carolinian was nearly profitable, but revenue had reached its upper limit because the siding where it is stored overnight in Charlotte is too short to add another coach. I believe all of Virginia's trains to the corridor (from Roanoke, Norfolk, Newport News and Richmond) are profitable above the rail. In general, most Amtrak routes are operating very close to capacity now (at ridership ceilings), and new frequencies would be the only practical way to increase ridership.

Amtrak does release quarterly reports (before Covid anyway) where it provides very detailed accounting and ridership information.

By way of comparison, gas taxes pay roughly 50% of highway maintenance and capital costs, and the capital costs of vehicles is disregarded when accounting for driving costs. So at 80% cost recovery Amtrak is much more efficient than highways.

Edited September 5, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

Nobody spends any time worrying about last mile connections from airports, why are trains materially different?

Flying provides a material time savings though. So that becomes an acceptable trade off. A couple random examples:

Richmond, VA to Charleston, SC: Driving ~ 7 hours, Flying (one stop) ~ 3 hours with layover, Amtrak (one change) ~ 12 hours (with layover)

Albany, NY to Denver, CO: Driving ~ 25 hours, Flying (one stop) ~ 6 hours with layover, Amtrak (one change) ~ 38 hours (with layover)

If you're spending that long to take the train, the inconvenience at the ends become much more pronounced and a bigger deterrent. And then I would guess most of the train trips people (would) take are within reasonable driving distance so are competing with a car trip which is door to door and fully in the traveler's control. That last mile makes a difference. The same trade off is not up for consideration for most air trips.

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

In general, most Amtrak routes are operating very close to capacity now (at ridership ceilings), and new frequencies would be the only practical way to increase ridership.

This is good news if true, but Amtrak's capacity is quite low so this isn't really saying much. Amtrak had about 23 million total passengers in 2022. Allegiant had almost 17 million, and they're one of the smallest airlines. The entire airline industry carried 853 million. No idea if there is similar data for interstates. But rail is not at the same scale as other modes of travel.

26 minutes ago, kermit said:

Amtrak generally talks about 'above the rail cost recovery'. It is basically operational costs + equipment costs but does not include the capital costs of the track (but I believe it includes the fees paid to host railroads which cover maintenance expenses). Just before Covid Amtrak was running at around 80% cost recovery system wide (IIRC). The Carolinian was nearly profitable, but revenue was limited because the siding where it is stored overnight in Charlotte is too short to add another coach. I believe all of Virginia's trains to the corridor (form Roanoke, Norfolk, Newport News and Richmond) are profitable above the rail. In general, most Amtrak routes are operating very close to capacity now (at ridership ceilings), and new frequencies would be the only practical way to increase ridership.

This is interesting info. Thanks. Always appreciate your insight and perspective on rail.

[kermit]

17 hours ago, TCLT said:

Flying provides a material time savings though. So that becomes an acceptable trade off. A couple random examples:

Richmond, VA to Charleston, SC: Driving ~ 7 hours, Flying (one stop) ~ 3 hours with layover, Amtrak (one change) ~ 12 hours (with layover)

Albany, NY to Denver, CO: Driving ~ 25 hours, Flying (one stop) ~ 6 hours with layover, Amtrak (one change) ~ 38 hours (with layover)

Yea, rail (at North American speeds) will never be competitive on trips much longer than 300 miles. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

FWIW: I think your Charleston-Richmond train times are from Richmond Main Street station. This station only serves trains to and from the Tidewater at the moment (tracks are planned to eventually be rebuilt which will connect it to lines heading south). All trains heading south from Richmond only stop at the city's primary (and kinda suburban) station, Richmond Staples Mill (RVR). Trains from RVR only take 7 hours to Charleston. There are two trains per day, but, yea, one arrives at 4:48am...

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by kermit

[Spartan]

RE: Charlotte to Charleston - I agree the core problem is the SC General Assembly. They are not supportive of rail infrastructure (though they are wiling to 'study' it), and that is reflected in its chosen alignment for the high speed rail (which skips both Greenville and Spartanburg in favor of a single stop at the regional airport. 

Re: Rail Travel - it is not a stretch to think people will take the train.  We will not have a European style intercity rail network, or the commensurate local transit network to support it, in our lifetimes. However, providing good, reliable, and frequent service can drive ridership. The assumption is that trains have to beat the travel time of a car, but IMO that's not true. A train has to be a better experience than a car. The value you're getting is the ability to be able to do something else. You can read, nap, work, play a video game, have a beer, etc. It's also an exponentially safer mode of transportation - you don't have to sit in congestion, worry about tailgating, distracted drivers, hydroplaning, etc. The CLT-RAL route's ridership is at an all time high, and NCDOT is working to expand it. You can also look at the success of the Brightline in Florida.

IMO if people will travel to Raleigh, which is exponentially more suburban sprawled than CLT, then they would also travel to Charleston. Peninsular Charleston is the primary destination there. If you're going to Folly or IOP then you're likely not taking the train anyway. Downtown is where the majority of the hotels, restaurants, etc. are. It makes a lot of sense, IMO. So, point being, if you provide a convenient and reliable service, even if its not 'faster' than a car, you can still develop and expand ridership. And that, in turn, will help generate a land use response over time. Create the market and private sector development will follow.

[Reverie39]

The Piedmont line's ridership is becoming quite impressive, and growing rapidly in the post-Covid world. I think that speaks to the interest North Carolinians have in taking the train. The state should take notice.

[Third Strike]

Asheville passenger rail line plan sees positive responses from WNC Rail Committee:
 

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2023/09/07/asheville-amtrak-plan-to-be-released-this-month-needs-state-funding/70741363007/

Seems like Norfolk Southern is looking forward to participating in the study of the Asheville/Salisbury passenger rail project. That’s good news and I hope this project is successful in taking off. If the project does happen, CATS and Iredell county should really work together on expanding bus access to Statesville, with a stop at the Statesville rail station. Seems like a no-brainer, especially with the planned BRT route that’s supposed to run from Uptown to I believe Mooresville. 

[kayman]

21 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

Asheville passenger rail line plan sees positive responses from WNC Rail Committee:
 

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2023/09/07/asheville-amtrak-plan-to-be-released-this-month-needs-state-funding/70741363007/

Seems like Norfolk Southern is looking forward to participating in the study of the Asheville/Salisbury passenger rail project. That’s good news and I hope this project is successful in taking off. If the project does happen, CATS and Iredell county should really work together on expanding bus access to Statesville, with a stop at the Statesville rail station. Seems like a no-brainer, especially with the planned BRT route that’s supposed to run from Uptown to I believe Mooresville. 

The current makeup of the Iredell County Commission doesn't want anything to do with CATS or  transit in general. Mooresville, Troutman, and Statesville maybe, but good luck on getting transit if you are looking for the Iredell County Board of Commissioners to support this is next to nonexistent.

[kermit]

19 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Asheville passenger rail line plan sees positive responses from WNC Rail Committee:
 

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2023/09/07/asheville-amtrak-plan-to-be-released-this-month-needs-state-funding/70741363007/

Seems like Norfolk Southern is looking forward to participating in the study of the Asheville/Salisbury passenger rail project. That’s good news and I hope this project is successful in taking off. If the project does happen, CATS and Iredell county should really work together on expanding bus access to Statesville, with a stop at the Statesville rail station. Seems like a no-brainer, especially with the planned BRT route that’s supposed to run from Uptown to I believe Mooresville. 

If transit doesn't happen (and it may not for a while), its not unlikely that Amtrak would provide an Amtrak Connection bus for Charlotte-Statesville, (particularly if the Charlotte-Salisbury connection to an Asheville train is bad — there will be an awkward but doable backing move if an Asheville bound train (originating in Raleigh) wants to stop in Salisbury. Amtrak connect buses are currently used for Winston trips on the Piedmont (you can buy a single ticket on Amtrak to go from CLT-Winston which includes the bus from High Point). Amtrak also connects its separated stations in Norfolk and Newport News by Amtrak Connect Bus.

If this were a sane world, there would be 15 Red Line trips per day from Gateway to downtown Statesville (this would require rebuilding some long-removed tracks)... sigh....

Edited September 8, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

The Carolina's Association of Passenger Trains (CAPT) group had a tour of Gateway Station (such as it is) on Monday led by CATS officials (I couldn't make it).  Their newsletter is out and reports the following good and bad news about Gateway:

Quote

Due to delays in determining a light rail alignment into the facility for the future Silver Line, construction will not start on the multi-modal transportation station until late 2025 with completion expected in late 2027 or early 2028. Designs for the station, which will be part of a multi-use high rise are expected be ready for review and consideration within a month or so. The actual approval process may take up to a year.

Quote

The possibility of a "temporary station " to service the platform is now being considered by Amtrak, NC Department of Transportation, and Charlotte Area Transit System. The site of the temporary station would be on land adjacent to the rail line between Trade and 5th Streets. The temporary Greyhound Station modular building now in use near the site may be relocated there. Greyhound and CATS are now trying to find another location for Greyhound while the multi-modal station will be in construction. A recent request by Greyhound for use of city land near the JW Clay light rail station in the University area was rejected by Charlotte City Council.

and then this note on the Summit Ave maintenance center:

Quote

The site already has additional land for expansion south of Summit Avenue where a connection to the NS mainline would allow access from the south end of the maintenance facility. With the completion of a new wye connection track east of the airport at the Norfolk Southern railroad's "Charlotte Junction" passenger trains with only head end locomotives could be reversed for movements in the opposite direction, and also be able to pull in head forward into the rail maintenance facility. The trains would then be ready for northbound movement into the Charlotte Gateway station platform.

I gather from the newsletter that all of the above info is from CATS officials. This is the first tangible news I have heard about a temporary station.

They also report that ridership on the Piedmont is at an all time record and is up 24% since July (the fifth frequency was added on July 10).

Edited September 29, 2023 by kermit

[go_vertical]

In my opinion this project has turned into a complete joke.  Incompetence across the board.  Now construction isn't even going to start for at least another two years?  We all know a year from now it will be announced that construction will be delayed until 2026/2027.

[Nathan2]

I thought the Silver Line alignment into the station was decided years ago. What the hell are we waiting for? And why does that mean we need to wait another two years to even start construction? Charlotte can not even do the basics.  

[Reverie39]

Well a temporary station is good news at least. The current Charlotte station is awful.

[Blue_Devil]

I think if this red line plan actually is serious, we will see the station come to fruition, but maybe not the huge 4 tower project, something more like what’s in Raleigh. 

A redline with 30 minute headways would start really bringing volume into the station. I am assuming they don’t even know when the silver line will be built