Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[Professor]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:30 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Hopefully. There’s already signs of TOD around potential stations literally because of the prospects of the red line. The 3 LKN towns have been working a long time on making their area accessible, walkable etc. mandatory sidewalks, expanding greenways, look at the pedestrian infrastructure on the bridge even on Catawba Ave. 

They also build pretty dense in LKN too. I agree a rail line would kill it. Even like. Heavy rail with 30 minute peak frequencies bi-directional, hour off peak I think would be yuge. It’d be dope to get off at Cornelius and be able to take a local bus to say Jetton Park.

Or, you could simply get off the train in Cornelius and grab one of the taxis that will be available and waiting to take to Jetton Park. Life will be soooo much better with the options we'll see with the Red Line. 

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, Larry Singer said:

Or, you could simply get off the train in Cornelius and grab one of the taxis that will be available and waiting to take to Jetton Park. Life will be soooo much better with the options we'll see with the Red Line. 

Even better, take the  90 cent ride on the Village Rider https://www.charlottenc.gov/CATS/Bus/Bus-Routes-and-Schedules/North-Meck-Village-Rider

[Reverie39]

19 hours ago, Spero said:

Just dropping in from Raleigh to say this would be the biggest boost to my use of the rail to Charlotte. I don’t give a rip if the ticketing office is a pup tent, as long as it isn’t in the middle of nowhere with zero transit or pedestrian safety like the current station.

Very much agreed. Would take it from Raleigh all the time if it dropped me off in Uptown. The current station's location is so bad it's pretty comical.

[Professor]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:02 PM, Reverie39 said:

Very much agreed. Would take it from Raleigh all the time if it dropped me off in Uptown. The current station's location is so bad it's pretty comical.

It is really sad that the Amtrac station isn't in a walkable (safely) location. It i a shame that you can't do what you mentioned easily. At least it is only a five or ten minutes (with traffic) Uber trip to uptown. 

[Reverie39]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:45 PM, Larry Singer said:

It is really sad that the Amtrac station isn't in a walkable (safely) location. It i a shame that you can't do what you mentioned easily. At least it is only a five or ten minutes (with traffic) Uber trip to uptown. 

Yeah, I didn't actually hate taking the bus into Uptown CTC from there and the app was easy to use. But it just seemed so unnecessarily complicated. 

[Third Strike]

So I’ve seen this question floating around several transit groups I follow, but how feasible would it be to use highway ROW for building high-speed rail in America? ROW acquisition is pretty expensive in America, but many highways, especially suburban and rural highways, have plenty of space that could be used for mass transit, especially for HSR. A greenfield option was chosen for the Charlotte/ATL HSR, but wouldn’t the I-85 option be a much cheaper alternative?

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Third Strike said:

So I’ve seen this question floating around several transit groups I follow, but how feasible would it be to use highway ROW for building high-speed rail in America? ROW acquisition is pretty expensive in America, but many highways, especially suburban and rural highways, have plenty of space that could be used for mass transit, especially for HSR. A greenfield option was chosen for the Charlotte/ATL HSR, but wouldn’t the I-85 option be a much cheaper alternative?

Its very dependent on the specifics of individual highway design. Brightline built its new tracks from Cocoa to Orlando along the side of the Bee Line Expressway. The road runs straight and flat and there was little development, few access roads, and few exists on the highway. They are also planning to build tracks to Tampa in the median of I-4 as the road was design for extra space in the median to possibly accommodate rail in the future.

Unfortunately not all highways are designed in ways that are compatible with HSR (and I-85 is one of those roads due to hills through the Piedmont). Moderately steep grades and curve radii that are too small for true HSR are serious impediments to easy construction. BLE construction also shows us the other reason why highway ROW are not always good solutions — the N Tryon segment was no cheaper than other segments. Generally railroads need to built such that car access to existing businesses is still possible -- this is really difficult when there are multiple types of access roads, overpasses and nearby development. In the case of HSR this generally means either elevation or tunneling which quickly negates the cost advantages of the highway ROW.

IIRC the Greenfield HSR route from Charlotte to Atlanta was actually estimated as cheaper than the I-85 route (although I may be misremembering that, Greenfield may have just been faster than I-85)

TLDR: highway ROW can work for HSR in some places, but certainly not all. I can't speak to exact proportionality. Ultimately a highway routing usually offers (at best) small cost advantages, but all highway routings come come at the expense of good center city access (which is generally the big advantage of rail over other modes). French HSR has quite a few 'out in the corn field" stations (particularly in Southern France) and they are widely hated because of their inconvenience.

Edited November 15, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

From Business NC

Today’s number: 65,980
That’s the record ridership mark hit in October for passenger rail service between Raleigh and Charlotte. The Piedmont route added a fifth daily round trip service in July, which means there are now 10 trains-per-day on the route between the state’s two largest cities with stops in between. 

NC By Train, which provides daily train service between Raleigh, Charlotte and the Northeast, is managed by the N.C. Department of Transportation’s Rail Division. The state agency contracts with Amtrak to serve as the train’s operator.

NC By Train saw its highest ridership in the service’s 32-year history in 2022, and the service is on pace to break that record this year, according to the state. Ridership during the first three quarters of 2023 increased 23% over the same period in 2022.

NCDOT’s Rail Division has applied for funds from the Federal Railroad Administration to explore 12 new routes to destinations such as Asheville and Wilmington. The division has also applied for FRA funds for the final engineering and construction work on a proposed passenger rail route between Raleigh and Wake Forest. This proposal is part of a larger passenger train initiative to connect North Carolina and Virginia’s rail systems with frequent, fast and reliable train service.

[Reverie39]

Propose basically everything possible. With numbers like this I bet plenty of funding can get secured

[carolinaboy]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:19 AM, KJHburg said:

From Business NC

Today’s number: 65,980
That’s the record ridership mark hit in October for passenger rail service between Raleigh and Charlotte. The Piedmont route added a fifth daily round trip service in July, which means there are now 10 trains-per-day on the route between the state’s two largest cities with stops in between. 

NC By Train, which provides daily train service between Raleigh, Charlotte and the Northeast, is managed by the N.C. Department of Transportation’s Rail Division. The state agency contracts with Amtrak to serve as the train’s operator.

NC By Train saw its highest ridership in the service’s 32-year history in 2022, and the service is on pace to break that record this year, according to the state. Ridership during the first three quarters of 2023 increased 23% over the same period in 2022.

NCDOT’s Rail Division has applied for funds from the Federal Railroad Administration to explore 12 new routes to destinations such as Asheville and Wilmington. The division has also applied for FRA funds for the final engineering and construction work on a proposed passenger rail route between Raleigh and Wake Forest. This proposal is part of a larger passenger train initiative to connect North Carolina and Virginia’s rail systems with frequent, fast and reliable train service.

Shouldn't this show the powers-that-be how imperative the new station at Gateway is? Forget the other development on the site if the market isn't there but get moving with the station.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, carolinaboy said:

Shouldn't this show the powers-that-be how imperative the new station at Gateway is? Forget the other development on the site if the market isn't there but get moving with the station.

I think the powers-that-be have a decent idea about the importance of Gateway, the holdup is with the private developer who is in wait-and-see mode. The time for action would have been when the Gateway District developer contract was written by the city.

[RANYC]

In NYC, one can take either the Long Island Railroad (LIRR) or the Subway to Jamaica Station and then transfer to the AirTran, which is a tram specific to the airport’s grounds.  You don’t take either the commuter rail line or the subway to the terminal.  If I recall correctly, when going to Newark Airport, in addition to taking NJ Transit Commuter rail to an AirTran stop, you can also take Amtrak from Penn Station to that same AirTran stop. 

Might there be an option for Amtrak to take passengers from Gateway Station to Charlotte Airport’s own version of an AirTran location off-campus that would then transport Airport patron and employee riders to the terminal?
 

 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Might there be an option for Amtrak to take passengers from Gateway Station to Charlotte Airport’s own version of an AirTran location off-campus that would then transport Airport patron and employee riders to the terminal?

This would only be possible after paying NS many 10s of millions (perhaps $100 million) for an additional track from Uptown to airport. They are VERY protective of access to their new intermodal yard and have struggled with congestion btw Charlotte and Atlanta for many years. As mentioned upthread, if NCDOT gets forced to move the rail service yard to the airport (the next most logical location) then this could happen with LOTS of $$$$. But I don't see Wilmore NIMBYs being powerful enough to make this happen.

NCRR ownership ends not far from the existing station, NS owns everything from N Tryon all the way to New Orleans. That is why CLT airport access is so difficult. It would have already been done if those tracks were owned by the NCRR.

Edited November 28, 2023 by kermit

[RANYC]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

This would only be possible after paying NS many 10s of millions (perhaps $100 million) for an additional track from Uptown to airport. They are VERY protective of access to their new intermodal yard and have struggled with congestion btw Charlotte and Atlanta for many years. As mentioned upthread, if NCDOT gets forced to move the rail service yard to the airport (the next most logical location) then this could happen with LOTS of $$$$. But I don't see Wilmore NIMBYs being powerful enough to make this happen.

NCRR ownership ends not far from the existing station, NS owns everything from N Tryon all the way to New Orleans. That is why CLT airport access is so difficult. It would have already been done if those tracks were owned by the NCRR.

Understood, but I guess I’m asking if new tracks for Amtrak to the airport might be a viable alternative to the silver line?  Amtrak ridership is way up and you have riders from a much bigger territory, urban and non-urban, catching Amtrak to get to Charlotte.  Someone in Winston needing to catch a flight out of Charlotte airport would now have a way to get there without driving.  An Amtrak channel to CLT isn’t a complete solution, but seems to be an expedient to achieving even more multi-modality to the airport for not just City of Charlotte residents, but the much broader Central North Carolina constituent base. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Understood, but I guess I’m asking if new tracks for Amtrak to the airport might be a viable alternative to the silver line?  Amtrak ridership is way up and you have riders from a much bigger territory, urban and non-urban, catching Amtrak to get to Charlotte.  Someone in Winston needing to catch a flight out of Charlotte airport would now have a way to get there without driving.  An Amtrak channel to CLT isn’t a complete solution, but seems to be an expedient to achieving even more multi-modality to the airport for not just City of Charlotte residents, but the much broader Central North Carolina constituent base. 

Nah, not an alternative. It is very unlikely that there will be more than 10-12 intercity trains per day in NC. Hourly trains make for pretty lousy airport service. Doubly so when trains originate from 150 miles (or more) away and are subject to substantial delays. Ultimately this is too few people to justify the cost of this extension (without continuing service to SC and Atlanta)

Having said that, an airport intercity rail station does have other benefits. Airport connections for people in Salisbury, High Point and Greensboro would be of some beneift to both residents and in terms of prospective employment growth.  An even bigger economic advantage would be to replace any flights from CLT-GSO or RDU (possibly Greenville-SPG and Columbia) with a train, thus increasing gate capacity at CLT and reducing carbon outputs. This is already done on the NEC with significant affect (effect?). Unfortunately no one at NCDOT would budge on this initiative without direct threats from AA to make it happen (and I doubt those are ever coming)

[RANYC]

37 minutes ago, kermit said:

Nah, not an alternative. It is very unlikely that there will be more than 10-12 intercity trains per day in NC. Hourly trains make for pretty lousy airport service. Doubly so when trains originate from 150 miles (or more) away and are subject to substantial delays. Ultimately this is too few people to justify the cost of this extension (without continuing service to SC and Atlanta)

Having said that, an airport intercity rail station does have other benefits. Airport connections for people in Salisbury, High Point and Greensboro would be of some beneift to both residents and in terms of prospective employment growth.  An even bigger economic advantage would be to replace any flights from CLT-GSO or RDU (possibly Greenville-SPG and Columbia) with a train, thus increasing gate capacity at CLT and reducing carbon outputs. This is already done on the NEC with significant affect (effect?). Unfortunately no one at NCDOT would budge on this initiative without direct threats from AA to make it happen (and I doubt those are ever coming)

NCDOT might if leadership and congressional representation in those cities were brought on board to champion this multi-modality for their people.

[15895]

7 hours ago, RANYC said:

In NYC, one can take either the Long Island Railroad (LIRR) or the Subway to Jamaica Station and then transfer to the AirTran, which is a tram specific to the airport’s grounds.  You don’t take either the commuter rail line or the subway to the terminal.  If I recall correctly, when going to Newark Airport, in addition to taking NJ Transit Commuter rail to an AirTran stop, you can also take Amtrak from Penn Station to that same AirTran stop. 

Might there be an option for Amtrak to take passengers from Gateway Station to Charlotte Airport’s own version of an AirTran location off-campus that would then transport Airport patron and employee riders to the terminal?
 

 

Nov. 26,  2023 was the busiest day in history for airline passengers in the entire U.S. with 2.9 Million passengers clocked in. 

The NYC subway in 2023 (excluding LIRR, buses, NJT, Amtrak, etc) carries about 1 million more than that on weekdays.

That’s ignoring the broader NEC and proximity to each other and how cheap it is to zip on over to an airport with hundreds of daily trains.

The fundamentals that make NYC (and the NEC in general) likely aren’t there for Charlotte. 

Here in DC, the Sunday after Thanksgiving, 14,000 people took “metro” (its subway system) from National Airport (close to the city) & 5,300 to Dulles Airport (in the suburbs) Both airports have about the same passengers flip flopping on which is busier regularly. BWI (Baltimore-Washington International) Airport is the busiest in the region, served by 60 trains, fares can be around $7 for a region of 10MM people, + New Yorkers, Philadelphia/Delaware folks take advantage of the cheap fares from the airport and it generates about *2,100*  passengers/day (and even then, that includes people who may not even be going to the airport) in a region most friendly to mass transit. You can really see the deterioration in ridership based on mode of transit and built environment. 

All that to say. The ridership would be insanely small to the airport on Amtrak. Like. Pretty much nothing. MARTA rail airport station carries about 12,000/day (its 2nd busiest station and home to the busiest airport in the world with a ton of employees) as a reference. 

The problem is, as always, Charlotte (and a few other cities) have to turn to things like BRT, Inadequate streetcars due to lack of state funding. People think more creative because we’re so ingrained and have been beaten by the Republican overlords that they’re not down with funding mass transit. The obvious answer. A light rail station to the airport, as part of a broader system, is the answer. And to have successful transit in Charlotte, as with anywhere, building it right matters. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[davidclt]

28 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

And to have successful transit in Charlotte, as with anywhere, building it right matters. 

In Charlotte, all that matters is building it as cheaply as possible sadly. Our city top to bottom is the master of value engineering. That's nothing to be proud of.

Edited November 29, 2023 by davidclt

[blt23]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Nah, not an alternative. It is very unlikely that there will be more than 10-12 intercity trains per day in NC. Hourly trains make for pretty lousy airport service. Doubly so when trains originate from 150 miles (or more) away and are subject to substantial delays. Ultimately this is too few people to justify the cost of this extension (without continuing service to SC and Atlanta)

Having said that, an airport intercity rail station does have other benefits. Airport connections for people in Salisbury, High Point and Greensboro would be of some beneift to both residents and in terms of prospective employment growth.  An even bigger economic advantage would be to replace any flights from CLT-GSO or RDU (possibly Greenville-SPG and Columbia) with a train, thus increasing gate capacity at CLT and reducing carbon outputs. This is already done on the NEC with significant affect (effect?). Unfortunately no one at NCDOT would budge on this initiative without direct threats from AA to make it happen (and I doubt those are ever coming)

But mainline tracks could host local/regional/commuter trains too.  

If we built a new, passenger-priority, mainline double track paralleling the existing freight tracks it could easily accommodate “local” trains running every 15 minutes between uptown and the airport with a few intermediate stops, and a nonstop slot for Amtrak or Atlanta-Charlotte HSR between each pair of local trains.

I’m under no illusion that it would be dramatically cheaper to build than the corresponding portion of the silver line, but if NS is truly in a cooperative mood it might be easier to develop by avoiding the need for full ROW protection/separation from freight trains that light rail requires, and the intercity component could help generate political support in other parts of the state.

It wouldn’t be just about the ridership that can be gleaned from the current 5 trains, but about making plans to accommodate both local and intercity trains with only one project. If our long term vision for this corridor includes both local and intercity rail, how much are we really gaining by insisting they be developed separately?

[15895]

3 hours ago, blt23 said:

But mainline tracks could host local/regional/commuter trains too.  

If we built a new, passenger-priority, mainline double track paralleling the existing freight tracks it could easily accommodate “local” trains running every 15 minutes between uptown and the airport with a few intermediate stops, and a nonstop slot for Amtrak or Atlanta-Charlotte HSR between each pair of local trains.

I’m under no illusion that it would be dramatically cheaper to build than the corresponding portion of the silver line, but if NS is truly in a cooperative mood it might be easier to develop by avoiding the need for full ROW protection/separation from freight trains that light rail requires, and the intercity component could help generate political support in other parts of the state.

It wouldn’t be just about the ridership that can be gleaned from the current 5 trains, but about making plans to accommodate both local and intercity trains with only one project. If our long term vision for this corridor includes both local and intercity rail, how much are we really gaining by insisting they be developed separately?

I’m just saying. There would be like. No ridership. Under what example would it make sense to take an intercity train to Charlotte Airport? Where would it go beyond the airport? At 15 minute frequencies? A frequency higher than the light rail… I’d be shocked if it had a ridership of more than 10 people, literally. 

Charlottes better off building a streetcar to the airport and it would still get wayyyyyyy more ridership than intercity trains. And better frequency. And longer operating hours. At a giant fraction of the cost. 

I mean just think of taking an intercity train to CLT airport… first, you’d have to have someone drive you to the train station (or Uber to it). Hope there are like 50 trains a day. Hope your flight isn’t too early. Hope your flight isn’t too late. Hassle trying to get from an intercity train station to the terminal. Pay money for the intercity train. Assuming someone is doing so to save money rather than flying out of Raleigh, Wilmington, Greensboro or Asheville airports… Most people don’t live beside an intercity train station. And Gateway I would imagine would need to be way bigger than currently designed to handle the amount of trains to sustain any type of NEC frequency…

The current Sprinter bus is way better than intercity would be. And more reliable. And probably faster given frequencies & shuttle times to/from the station for intercity trains. 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’m just saying. There would be like. No ridership. Under what example would it make sense to take an intercity train to Charlotte Airport? Where would it go beyond the airport? At 15 minute frequencies? A frequency higher than the light rail… I’d be shocked if it had a ridership of more than 10 people, literally. 

Charlottes better off building a streetcar to the airport and it would still get wayyyyyyy more ridership than intercity trains. And better frequency. And longer operating hours. At a giant fraction of the cost. 

I mean just think of taking an intercity train to CLT airport… first, you’d have to have someone drive you to the train station (or Uber to it). Hope there are like 50 trains a day. Hope your flight isn’t too early. Hope your flight isn’t too late. Hassle trying to get from an intercity train station to the terminal. Pay money for the intercity train. Assuming someone is doing so to save money rather than flying out of Raleigh, Wilmington, Greensboro or Asheville airports… Most people don’t live beside an intercity train station. And Gateway I would imagine would need to be way bigger than currently designed to handle the amount of trains to sustain any type of NEC frequency…

The current Sprinter bus is way better than intercity would be. And more reliable. And probably faster given frequencies & shuttle times to/from the station for intercity trains. 

 

They have a dedicated bus line called "The Heathrow Loop" here in London. It makes about a dozen stops in some of the environs of London, which, btw are much more dense population-wise than even uptown Charlotte. They run every 15 minutes and are VERY popular.  They also double as a speedier way to get around town if one of those dozen or so stops service where you're going. I've done the rails from Heathrow and even those aren't always full compared to the busses. Maybe the bus stops are more targeted?

[kermit]

Amtrak Cascades service (Portland-Seattle core with occasional trains to Eugene and Vancouver BC) are now up to 12 per day (actually just 6 round trips, so this isn't a ton more service than we have, I was tricked by the announcement language in my initial post)

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

We should hear something on the status of the 13 corridor ID grants that were submitted by NCDOT for funding this month (I would think in the next two weeks). These grants are intended to pay for feasibility studies of future route development. I would bet that Raleigh-Richmond, Raleigh-Wilmington and Salisbury-Asheville (ugh) get funded for sure. The big question for us is if Charlotte-Winston gets funded (it’s a coin flip IMO). Federal interest in those tracks would make Red Line construction MUCH more realistic (and I assume they would study a connection at Barber to allow for potential Charlotte-Asheville trains as part of that grant).

Charlotte to Kings Mountain was also submitted for consideration (as was Charlotte-Atlanta) so its possible that planning for the much discussed airport station could emerge from this process as well. I doubt any real construction would get federal funds South of Uptown without firm commitments from GADOT on increased Atlanta service however.

While these grants are small, this announcement will determine what routes will be in the running for future funding (routes not making the cut can be forgotten about for at least a generation). With our 13 proposals, this announcement will arguably be the biggest news on NC rail expansion ever. Waiting patiently….

Edited November 30, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

We should hear something on the status of the 13 corridor ID grants that were submitted by NCDOT for funding this month (probably in the next two weeks). These grants are intended to pay for feasibility studies of future route development. I would bet that Raleigh-Richmond, Raleigh-Wilmington and Salisbury-Asheville (ugh) get funded for sure. The big question for us is if Charlotte-Winston gets funded (it’s a coin flip IMO). Federal interest in those tracks would make Red Line construction MUCH more realistic (and I assume they would study a connection at Barber to allow for potential Charlotte-Asheville trains as part of that grant).

Charlotte to Kings Mountain was also submitted for consideration (as was Charlotte-Atlanta) so its possible that planning for the much discussed airport station could emerge from this process as well.

While these grants are small, this announcement will determine what routes will be in the running for future funding (routes not making the cut can be forgotten about for a generation). With our 13 proposals, this announcement will arguably be the biggest news on NC rail expansion ever. Waiting patiently….

Thanks for the updates!!! This is great 

[Reverie39]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

We should hear something on the status of the 13 corridor ID grants that were submitted by NCDOT for funding this month (I would think in the next two weeks). These grants are intended to pay for feasibility studies of future route development. I would bet that Raleigh-Richmond, Raleigh-Wilmington and Salisbury-Asheville (ugh) get funded for sure. The big question for us is if Charlotte-Winston gets funded (it’s a coin flip IMO). Federal interest in those tracks would make Red Line construction MUCH more realistic (and I assume they would study a connection at Barber to allow for potential Charlotte-Asheville trains as part of that grant).

Charlotte to Kings Mountain was also submitted for consideration (as was Charlotte-Atlanta) so its possible that planning for the much discussed airport station could emerge from this process as well. I doubt any real construction would get funded South of Uptown without firm commitments from GADOT on increased Atlanta service however.

While these grants are small, this announcement will determine what routes will be in the running for future funding (routes not making the cut can be forgotten about for at least a generation). With our 13 proposals, this announcement will arguably be the biggest news on NC rail expansion ever. Waiting patiently….

Great to hear. Feels like NC is making strides in rail transportation as of late. Have to follow through once these come out.