CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kayman]

23 minutes ago, kermit said:

yea, I am not sure about that. The A, B, G and N lines use traditional heavy rail equipment, on traditional heavy rail tracks, operate tracks occasionally used by freight  (Union Station throat) and are regulated by the FRA rather than the FTA.

FRA regulates commuter rail infrastructure because they don't operate as regular mass transit rather as a short-distance passenger railway service due to the usage & sharing trackage with Class A railway infrastructure rather railway regulated by FTA. True heavy rail is regulated by FTA hence why the classification of LIRR operated NYC MTA is considered hybrid because it uses heavy rail infrastructure but operates like a commuter rail. Similar to the East Bay & cross bay rail lines within the BART system in the San Francisco Bay Area. 

[ajfunder]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:58 AM, kayman said:

https://www.rtd-denver.com/sites/default/files/files/2019-04/East_Rail_CU_A_Line_Fact_Sheet_2016_FINAL.pdf

No it's not. It's light rail that operates as commuter. The technology is overhead catanary powered lines in lieu of a trunk third rail. It could be considered medium or light rapid rail but the at-grade crossings along the A-Line causes to be classified as light rail/regional commuter rail but not heavy rail/rapid rail.  I know my transportation mode technologies. 

 

As a resident of Denver (I live on the G Line) and a professional railroader, RTD’s A, B, G, and N lines are FRA regulated commuter rail but definitely not a form of light rail. Unlike light rail, the commuter lines in the RTD network have to adhere to all FRA requirements including PTC and other FRA mandated training qualifications including using certified, FRA qualified engineers. 

People commonly call  the commuter rail lines the light rail, but it is  quite different from an operations, technology, and transportation perspective when compared to the rest of RTD’s actual light rail system. It functions much closer to a heavy rail system (it is technically connected to the national rail network sharing switches at DUS with Amtrak) and from a regulation standpoint is a completely different category than light rail.  
 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by ajfunder

[southslider]

Convincing North Mecklenburg that Red Line isn't light rail is as challenging as convincing Americans that a third-pound burger has more meat than a quarter-pounder.

[kermit]

re. Red Line prospects:

Colorado has submitted a corridor development grant for their Front Range Intercity service plan (essentially Pueblo to Ft Collins to start). This intercity service would run over the same tracks that Denver to Boulder-Longmont Commuter rail is planned for but stalled due to high cost requirements for commuter rail from BNSF, the owner of the line. The probable operator of the Front Range line will be  Amtrak, and unlike RTD, BNSF is required to allow Amtrak access to the tracks although capacity conditions will still need to be met, those required improvements are vetted for reasonableness by the Surface Transportation Board. This is all in the early planning stages and lots of questions remain but once Front Range service gets started, it is being assumed that RTD may have an easier time establishing commuter service on the Boulder-Longmont section. [if inter-city grant funds pay for crossing improvements and some new sidings then there are fewer improvements that commuter rail funds will need to find money for]

https://www.cpr.org/2023/09/29/polis-wants-billions-for-front-range-rail/

I mention this only because this situation is a near perfect analogue to the Red Line / proposed Winston to Charlotte intercity service (for which NCDOT has applied for the same corridor development grant which -may- run on the Red Line tracks). How the Colorado commuter access debate plays out will have a good bit of influence over how CATS might reach a compromise with Norfolk Southern on commuter rail. We should hear about decisions on the corridor development grants in the next couple of months (Front Range is a sure thing, the NC-VA S-Line is a sure thing, Winston to Charlotte is more of a tossup), and planning and engineering work should begin shortly after that. While this bank-shot strategy is far from certain, there  really -might- be something to shake loose on the Red Line project thanks to the Infrastructure Bill -- I just hope that CATS is paying attention.

This might have been the scenario that Ed Driggs was referencing a couple weeks ago:

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Mobile Pass validation is arriving on October 9th. The video does to say if the validation is required on rail (it should be!). This is sorely needed and will crack down on the folks who only by a mobile ticket when they see an inspector.

https://x.com/CATSRideTransit/status/1709262288287383721?s=20

 

[kayman]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:39 AM, ajfunder said:

As a resident of Denver (I live on the G Line) and a professional railroader, RTD’s A, B, G, and N lines are FRA regulated commuter rail but definitely not a form of light rail. Unlike light rail, the commuter lines in the RTD network have to adhere to all FRA requirements including PTC and other FRA mandated training qualifications including using certified, FRA qualified engineers. 

People commonly call  the commuter rail lines the light rail, but it is  quite different from an operations, technology, and transportation perspective when compared to the rest of RTD’s actual light rail system. It functions much closer to a heavy rail system (it is technically connected to the national rail network sharing switches at DUS with Amtrak) and from a regulation standpoint is a completely different category than light rail.  
 

 

 

Ironically, I've spent the last several days in another state with officials from FTA & FRA both on a peer exchange and training for the Charlotte region. Also, I had a chance to ask them myself face to face what is the RTD A-Line classified as modal type.

Both entities' officials said it's a hybrid rail like the LIRR, but it's not considered heavy rail at all.  It does function more like the rest of the RTD light rail mode although the infrastructure is regulated by FRA on that portion.

Edited October 4, 2023 by kayman

[videtur quam contuor]

Montréal new REM driverless train was discussed up thread and I was there for eight days. This is the sign that entertainingly described the project for passersby. "Giants seen near the future stations" meaning equipment. 

At McGill and St Catherine the cut has been nearly covered and I took a short video. This is one of the busiest intersections normally and with construction traffic, pedestrians on a weekend, I had to dance to keep the camera pointed while out of the way of everything.

https://youtube.com/shorts/rhFu5a3Oz6U?si=jMcQzWBk2Ym6j5Ja

Dropping stones into a hole to use somewhere below for ballast as the construction worker told me. EDIT: how could I have forgotten this. Note the mountain in the background of the video

 

This station will be one of the deepest in the world: Édouard Monpétit*

https://rem.info/en/travelling/stations/edouard-montpetit

The site above has much more information in English

 

Below ground a passageway across the work space shows the appearance of the future lower level REM access.

 

 

 

The train will use a 100 year old tunnel through Mount Royal updated and improved for this service.

*God help those travelers when the escalators fail

Edited October 4, 2023 by videtur quam contuor

[videtur quam contuor]

This project, in a city much like other cities in the U. S., with highly unionized workers, going 24/7 for years straight, reinforced my impression that our country is a do-nothing country. Plenty of talk, environmental plans until we fall asleep, budget overruns, intractable levels of supervision. Much talk, little action.

Learning From Other Places, indeed.

Flip side: I so love Montréal. 22d visit for me.

[kermit]

Cato Hall, UNCC

 

[Nathan2]

 

Norfolk is willing to work with Charlotte on Red Line!

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/breaking-norfolk-southern-says-its?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=6449&post_id=138014401&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=cyirz&utm_medium=email

Edited October 18, 2023 by Nathan2

[Blue_Devil]

Wait, I was told redline would never happen!

[15895]

41 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

Wait, I was told redline would never happen!

It will be a miracle if the red line in the form of rail gets built. And without the Feds. What are the opportunity cost of committing to the red line vs. another light rail line that would likely have way higher ridership & potential to earn hundreds of millions in federal dollars. 

Edit: but maybe if it improves Amtrak stuff, Amtrak could step in and provide funding. I dunno - the railroad smarty pants we have here would have to weigh in on that. 
 

From the article:

Even if the city can win permission to use the tracks for the Red Line — which is far from certain — the strategy for the larger transit plan still faces challenges:

• Republican leaders in the General Assembly have been skeptical and have said Charlotte should focus primarily on road-building.

• After revelations of troubles at the Charlotte Area Transit System, voters might not be willing to hand it more money and power.

• The federal government might be pulling back on funding: Raleigh’s mayor said this year that the Federal Transit Administration told Triangle officials that it is “no longer funding commuter rail.” The FTA has said it doesn’t favor one type of transportation over another and considers cost, ridership, economic impact and other factors in funding decisions. [Edited 10/18/23 at 11:50 a.m. to reflect FTA position on transit funding]

• Work and commuting patterns have shifted substantially since the Red Line was first envisioned, especially post-Covid. The North Mecklenburg Express bus, which carried 17,000 passengers on the north-to-south route in April 2011, carried just an estimated 5,100 passengers in April 2023, a decline of 70%. Is there still sufficient demand for transit between Charlotte and north Mecklenburg?

Edited October 18, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[southslider]

Deleted

Edited October 20, 2023 by southslider

[southslider]

14 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Work and commuting patterns have shifted substantially since the Red Line was first envisioned, especially post-Covid. The North Mecklenburg Express bus, which carried 17,000 passengers on the north-to-south route in April 2011, carried just an estimated 5,100 passengers in April 2023, a decline of 70%. Is there still sufficient demand for transit between Charlotte and north Mecklenburg?

This is sloppy reporting, as the 77X was split up following the opening of the Cornelius Park and Ride. The combination of all four Express routes traveling I-77 north of Uptown shows much more steady ridership collectively.

[Desert Power]

More changes at CATS: https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/cats-union-president-out-job-sources-say/U4UTAXSLBVF2NHWNFIFQB2Z3DQ/

Some interesting comments about increased security in there.

[davidclt]

3 hours ago, Desert Power said:

More changes at CATS: https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/cats-union-president-out-job-sources-say/U4UTAXSLBVF2NHWNFIFQB2Z3DQ/

Some interesting comments about increased security in there.

In addition to adding shelters and trash cans to ALL bus stops, I wish CATS would maintain the Transit Center and light rail stations (a little periodic pressure washing would go a long way).

[Professor]

I am just curious if anyone is excited at all about the possibility of the Red Line being back on the possibility list? One of the things that enticed me into moving to the lake area was talk of the Red Line operations which was being planned at the time. The hold up was Norfolk Southern which is now ready to talk. We really need to take this seriously and build it. The area isn't getting any smaller nor is the traffic situation. I hope this is seriously pushed. I doubt if the Charlotte City Council much gives a rats arse, but thousands of us others do 

[15895]

6 hours ago, Larry Singer said:

I am just curious if anyone is excited at all about the possibility of the Red Line being back on the possibility list? One of the things that enticed me into moving to the lake area was talk of the Red Line operations which was being planned at the time. The hold up was Norfolk Southern which is now ready to talk. We really need to take this seriously and build it. The area isn't getting any smaller nor is the traffic situation. I hope this is seriously pushed. I doubt if the Charlotte City Council much gives a rats arse, but thousands of us others do 

Not excited yet but close. I’ll be more excited once public officials have time to opine. And I’ll be officially once  they start discussing plans again. 
 

The interesting thing this time versus in the past is NC potentially buying it which even without plans they should just buy it. Railroad people here will know but… if Amtrak is going to use this portion of the rail road… why not just make it light rail (or heavy light rail)? Maybe it could even be more quick to build than the silver line? 
 

NC purchasing the tracks provides a way of funding without using existing funding sources for transportation projects. If NC can just purchase it, then maybe it could cut down the cost of the red line (with the transaction of purchasing the tracks coming from another pot of money) and just build light rail along it. Silver line will have no tracks to follow. I dunno. I could just be so off the mark because again, rail road stuff is not my strong point. 
 

But the corridor looks so promising. 
 

 

It would be cool if it were heavy light rail. Would be more spacious and comfortable to (which would be a selling point for the LKN type).

Maybe I’m more excited than I realize? Lol.

Edited October 22, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Professor]

21 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Not excited yet but close. I’ll be more excited once public officials have time to opine. And I’ll be officially once  they start discussing plans again. 
 

The interesting thing this time versus in the past is NC potentially buying it which even without plans they should just buy it. Railroad people here will know but… if Amtrak is going to use this portion of the rail road… why not just make it light rail (or heavy light rail)? Maybe it could even be more quick to build than the silver line? 
 

NC purchasing the tracks provides a way of funding without using existing funding sources for transportation projects. If NC can just purchase it, then maybe it could cut down the cost of the silver line (with the transaction of purchasing the tracks coming from another pot of money) and just build light rail along it. Silver line will have no tracks to follow. I dunno. I could just be so off the mark because again, rail road stuff is not my strong point. 
 

But the corridor looks so promising. 
 

 

It would be cool if it were heavy light rail. Would be more spacious and comfortable to (which would be a selling point for the LKN type).

Maybe I’m more excited than I realize? Lol.

And heavy rail would have a bar probably. 

 

[nicholas]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The interesting thing this time versus in the past is NC potentially buying it which even without plans they should just buy it. Railroad people here will know but… if Amtrak is going to use this portion of the rail road… why not just make it light rail (or heavy light rail)? Maybe it could even be more quick to build than the silver line?

NC purchasing the tracks provides a way of funding without using existing funding sources for transportation projects. If NC can just purchase it, then maybe it could cut down the cost of the red line (with the transaction of purchasing the tracks coming from another pot of money) and just build light rail along it. Silver line will have no tracks to follow. I dunno. I could just be so off the mark because again, rail road stuff is not my strong point.

I don't think that would be very feasible since the current line is single-tracked basically the entire way from Charlotte to Mooresville, and much of the ROW is very narrow.  I'm sure it can be upgraded to become a regional route up to Mooresville, or an Amtrak line to Winston-Salem, but I'm struggling to see how it could be both at the same time.  At least without a truly wild amount of acquisition, demolition, and construction to widen the ROW.

[kermit]

^ I believe the O-Line is mostly the standard 100 ft wide ROW*. In theory you could build 2 LRT tracks beside a heavy rail track in that space, but IIRC you need a LARGE cement wall separating the two per FTA regs (I think the WMATA Red Line around Silver Spring does this). But I would ask the question, why bother with that? If you want inter-city rail to Winston (and I think this would be a huge asset for the WFU schools of medicine and Charlotte's tech hopes), then just double track the stretch to Mooresville and run true regional rail (every 15 or 20 minutes) on those tracks and not bother with LRT. The N Meck towns are pretty well suited for regional rail stop spacing (every couple miles) rather than LRT spacing. The 25ish miles to Davidson are also a really long way to travel on LRT vehicles (my butt falls asleep on my 12 mile ride to UNCC).

IMO a heavy rail model is well suited for this route. It allows for infrastructure cost sharing with the state's inter-city service, and the vehicles are much more comfortable. Plus, pairing the N Meck service with Rock Hill trains (w an airport people mover stop) makes sense on that corridor as well.

* I know one of the surveyors who measured out the ROW back 20+ years ago for CATS. He said that there are some pretty serious, long-term encroachments that will be tough to resolve. I didn't get many details though. 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

38 minutes ago, nicholas said:

I don't think that would be very feasible since the current line is single-tracked basically the entire way from Charlotte to Mooresville, and much of the ROW is very narrow.  I'm sure it can be upgraded to become a regional route up to Mooresville, or an Amtrak line to Winston-Salem, but I'm struggling to see how it could be both at the same time.  At least without a truly wild amount of acquisition, demolition, and construction to widen the ROW.

That would be a bummer if it couldn’t be doubled tracked. 

This is the most crude drawing ever from my iPhone but this is what I’d love to see in Charlotte. 

 

Red Line: Heavy Light Rail similar to Denver’s Commuter lines. Mooresville - Gateway. Peak 15 minute frequency, off-peak 30, late night 1 hour. 

Silver Line: Matthews to Belmont. Peak 10 minutes, off peak 12 minutes. ***Shared Tracks with Gold Line in uptown between gateway & CTC***

Gold Line: Extension further into Plaza Midwood and to 85 on the west. All day 10 minute frequency. 

Green Line: completely shares tracks with other lines. From Airport to Tyvola. 15 minute frequency all day. Shares tracks with silver from airport to Gateway, with gold & silver from gateway to CTC and with blue from CTC to Tyvola.

Blue Line: 10 minute peak / 12 minute off peak. 

The uptown portion between green/silver/gold should give between Gateway & CTC [very uneven but oh well] frequency of around 5 minutes.

Then between CTC & Tyvola should have frequencies of every 7-ish minutes. 

Benefits:

- connections between gateway and CTC become feasible. 

- one stop seat to SouthEnd from airport 

- SouthEnd/Uptown is the busiest urban corridor and provides higher frequency for intown higher use passengers 

- Airport to uptown have decent frequency

- interlining puts more frequency in the core. Park & ride from 485 doesn’t deserve the same frequency as East/West Blvd to say Convention Center

Obviously we know the cons. Spacing between trains. Mixed traffic (though maybe between Gateway/CTC there could be a mass transit only portion). Is 7 minute frequency too much for the traffic going east/west in SouthEnd? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[nicholas]

19 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That would be a bummer if it couldn’t be doubled tracked.

Look how narrow it is along most of N Graham St, up along Derita Ave, through Huntersville and Cornelius and Davidson, etc.  As someone who isn't a railroad nerd I'd be curious to know if it would be possible to double track through those areas as they are now, and still meet the necessary minimum setbacks.  If not then I mean yeah it's still possible but from my perspective would seem astronomically expensive and very destructive through established areas.

Edited October 23, 2023 by nicholas

[seththom]

Found this here on page 11, taken from a study about crossings and grade separation: https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/O-Line_TSS.pdf

Quote

"The right-of-way has many encroachments today and some abutting properties are recorded to the centerline of the track. Mecklenburg County land records show a 100- foot right-of-way throughout the County. However, abutting property lines and street/highway rights-of-way frequently overlap the railroad right-of-way (this is usually the case when the railroad is on an easement, no matter how wide). The 100-foot right- of-way continues into southern Iredell County and Mooresville. In downtown Mooresville, both Broad Street and Main Street that flank the track, are located within the railroad right-of-way. In Mecklenburg County, significant portions of NC 115 are located within the railroad right-of-way."

Granted it's dated to 2004, but the ROW easement likely still exists. Agree with Kermit here that if intercity rail to Winston-Salem is the eventual goal, why not use heavy rail for the whole thing, especially since NS has zero freight customers along the route.

 

Side note, I got a good kick out of this picture/mock-up:

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by seththom

[JRCLT]

3 hours ago, nicholas said:

Look how narrow it is along most of N Graham St, up along Derita Ave, through Huntersville and Cornelius and Davidson, etc.  As someone who isn't a railroad nerd I'd be curious to know if it would be possible to double track through those areas as they are now, and still meet the necessary minimum setbacks.  If not then I mean yeah it's still possible but from my perspective would seem astronomically expensive and very destructive through established areas.

There was a study on adding more tracks...

Evaluation of the Impacts of the Norfolk Southern Passenger Rail Policy on the LYNX Red Line Corridor