CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[XRZ.ME]

Given how bad the office side of CRE is currently.

I guess the reason for silver line to skip center uptown could be a problem now. (Not much office development for some time)

 

But giving how long we need to wait for Silver line. Maybe the trend will be different by then.

 

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

Given how bad the office side of CRE is currently.

I guess the reason for silver line to skip center uptown could be a problem now. (Not much office development for some time)

 

But giving how long we need to wait for Silver line. Maybe the trend will be different by then.

 

Or gives more reason for the current preferred routing. If office commutes are no longer the driving trip generator for transit, choosing the preferred alignment could spur the development of residential, institutional, and entertainment uses along the line that will generate trips regardless of in office trends.

[XRZ.ME]

1 minute ago, TCLT said:

Or gives more reason for the current preferred routing. If office commutes are no longer the driving trip generator for transit, choosing the preferred alignment could spur the development of residential, institutional, and entertainment uses along the line that will generate trips regardless of in office trends.

Then silver line does not need to go to Matthews or put Union and Gaston county into consideration if the destination does not have much office space.

It could end at airport at west and Idlewild road or Margaret Wallace Road at south east. 

 

[Nathan2]

36 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

Then silver line does not need to go to Matthews or put Union and Gaston county into consideration if the destination does not have much office space.

It could end at airport at west and Idlewild road or Margaret Wallace Road at south east. 

 

I am personally not a fan of the silver line alignment as it follows highways instead of penetrating deep into dense neighborhoods making it harder to pull in higher ridership. That being said, I think having a transit connection to Mathews is needed to reduce car trips along Independence. I do think the silver line needs to be split up into two phases in order to get the most important sections built now at a lower cost. The first phase from the airport to Albermarle rd and the second phase extending to Gastonia and Mathews. 

Edited February 14 by Nathan2

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

Then silver line does not need to go to Matthews or put Union and Gaston county into consideration if the destination does not have much office space.

It could end at airport at west and Idlewild road or Margaret Wallace Road at south east. 

 

True. But that's entirely separate from the point about the uptown routing.

Although I'd argue a connection to Matthews is more useful than just commuting and should be kept if possible. I'd argue Downtown Matthews is currently a solid origin/destination trip generator plus connecting the sportsplex to transit could let Matthews develop into a nice little retail and entertainment node. And the routing shifts to Monroe Rd past Village Lake so there's a lot of benefit that could be gained there.

[kermit]

Steve "fudge transit" Harrison has a first look at the 'roads first' transit plan (he did a public records request). for Transit Time (Ledger/WFAE) The full plan can be seen here: :https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DsvKx_5D1Tmbe5ssxyTG9_72KynYx7LQ/view?pli=1

Highlights from Steve's article: https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/a-closer-look-at-charlottes-roads

Quote

For a closer look, let’s set aside for now the big-ticket rail projects from the list, which will likely cost at least $10 billion. They include: the Silver Line from Matthews to the airport; the Red Line from uptown to Lake Norman; the Gold Line streetcar extension; and the Blue Line light rail extension to Ballantyne.

Here are the other projects, grouped by category: 

• Intersection improvements: 86

• New streets: 90 miles, 130 projects

• New street lighting: 162 miles

• Road widening/complete streets: 244 miles

• Pedestrian signal upgrades: 506

• New pedestrian crossings: 69

• New sidewalks: 286 miles

• New bike network: 144 miles

• New greenways: 178 miles

• New transit “mobility hubs” or “microtransit areas”: 88

He does offer a solid observation where he calls out many of the road projects a) are complete streets projects (good)  and b) are unlikely to ever happen due to land costs / political impossibility of removing lanes from cars (bad)

Quote

The second is that a close look at some of the proposed “roads first” projects shows they could be unrealistic and are unlikely ever to be built.

For instance, in south Charlotte, the city lists Fairview Road, Pineville-Matthews Road, Sharon Road, Carmel Road and Tyvola Road as candidates for “road widening and complete streets.”

Complete streets are built or re-engineered to give dedicated space to cyclists and possibly buses. They are also designed to make it easier and safer for pedestrians.

Widening those roads for more cars would require buying some of the most expensive land in the city, tearing down trees, encroaching on the property of million-dollar homes or even knocking down businesses.

If the city made them “complete streets” without widening them, that would mean taking away space from vehicles — which would be politically difficult if not impossible in one of the most congested parts of Charlotte.

 

Edited February 16 by kermit

[southslider]

Just end the line in Downtown Matthews, so it can be a single track with less impact to Downtown Matthews streets and buildings.  The sportsplex is barely TOD and has high utility relocation costs. CPCC Levine has extra cost to go over 485. The nearby planned yard off Monroe Rd at the Matthews border with Charlotte could quickly add trains, if worried about single track capacity in Downtwon Matthews.

[Urbanography]

Nah. At least get it to Levine Campus. So many student have classes at both Levine and Central within the same day. You could eliminate car trips and create TOD around an under-tapped college campus. 

[JRCLT]

2 minutes ago, Urbanography said:

Nah. At least get it to Levine Campus. So many student have classes at both Levine and Central within the same day. You could eliminate car trips and create TOD around an under-tapped college campus. 

Found it weird that CPCC is so sprawling… would be nice if they could centralize considering that some students have to jump campuses. I'm sure there was a reason for the way it is now.

[CLT2014]

The hard thing for trying to eliminate car trips with CPCC is the student body in the Associate's / Transfer bound program overwhelmingly lives in suburban areas away from rail (likely with their parents). They will need a car to get home to their parent's house at the end of the day. A big advantage of community college is to save money living at home... not burn all that on a luxury apartment in South End. 

[Urbanography]

9 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

The hard thing for trying to eliminate car trips with CPCC is the student body in the Associate's / Transfer bound program overwhelmingly lives in suburban areas away from rail (likely with their parents). They will need a car to get home to their parent's house at the end of the day. A big advantage of community college is to save money living at home... not burn all that on a luxury apartment in South End. 

It would attenuate car trips from areas around the rail.  Extending the rail to the campus would connect it to everywhere the network (which will expand over time) serves. Campus to campus connection eliminates car trips between the campuses.  

Edited February 20 by Urbanography

[Urbanography]

17 minutes ago, JRCLT said:

Found it weird that CPCC is so sprawling… would be nice if they could centralize considering that some students have to jump campuses. I'm sure there was a reason for the way it is now.

I think the idea was that if there were campuses throughout the region, more students would be able to attend college by virtue of an easier commute. The less barriers there are, the more likely attendance is. I don't know if all the campuses were "specialized" the same way they are now, but connecting them together greatly benefits the access to education within the city. 

[CLT2014]

40 minutes ago, Urbanography said:

It would attenuate car trips from areas around the rail.  Extending the rail to the campus would connect it to everywhere the network (which will expand over time) serves. Campus to campus connection eliminates car trips between the campuses.  

I agree it will help some students, but likely a niche group based on where students live today and rail is planned to be extended. Looking at the dot map of where students live that attend CPCC Levine, the best transit for that campus would be a line along Pineville-Matthews Road or out into Union County as the majority of Levine campus students live along the I-485 corridor as opposed to the Silver Line / Independence corridor. It would be interesting to estimate what the ridership would be at a Levine station especially given the cost / benefit to build over the interstate to get to the campus. 

Edited February 20 by CLT2014

[videtur quam contuor]

I worked at Weddington HS and for at least the first 5 years of that school (VERY likely continuing) the most popular college choice for senior graduates was .......

fanfare.....

CPCC

Note that CPCC is not the state community college for Union county. South Piedmont CC serves Union County.

Also, if those circles above are based on postal addresses then many Matthews postal addresses are in Union County. Postal address is unrelated to municipal and political boundaries. The delivering and addressing station can be anywhere, including in another county.

[KJHburg]

Exclusive photos:  I had the privilege of taking a behind the scenes tour of the CATS South Maintenance Yard and Facility.   My takeaways are they are underfunded and the dedicated workers who work there are making due the best they can.  They seem to allude to poor upper management in the past but things are better with Mr Cagle now.  Many things in the facility were underbuilt in size storage areas, the whole maintenance shop area etc.  We even toured the operations control center where you can see where all the trains and streetcars are at any given time.  

It was a 2 hour tour and they seemed happy to do it even if they dont very often.  Got to the see the Train wash area people.  Learned this tidbit I have not seen in the media after a question I asked about vehicles and train tracks.   Sometime in the past a car drove ON THE TRACKS from 6th St through the CTC past and under the Hilton Hotel continued past the MLK St at grade crossing and continued  driving their vehicle THROUGH THE CONVENTION CENTER  to the Brooklyn Village Ave station where they finally stopped!  I am guessing it was overnight in the wee hours when no people on the streets would have seen and video taped  it like the incident in Southend.   Un-freaking believable!  Anyway behind the scenes at the CATS South facility.  

Edited February 22 by KJHburg

[CLT2014]

The legislature is back to make it clear they will only support a road's first transit plan. 

"Some of the things that we often hear from transportation advocates in urban areas are probably difficult for folks to vote for," he [Berger] said.

https://www.axios.com/local/charlotte/2024/02/26/berger-moore-transportation-plan-transit-roads-first

Edited February 28 by CLT2014

[Eastern]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:57 PM, CLT2014 said:

The legislature is back to make it clear they will only support a road's first transit plan. 

"Some of the things that we often hear from transportation advocates in urban areas are probably difficult for folks to vote for," he [Berger] said.

https://www.axios.com/local/charlotte/2024/02/26/berger-moore-transportation-plan-transit-roads-first

Those "folks" he's talking about would suddenly find those "things" real easy to figure out if urban counties withheld  their sales tax revenue and let them have to get along without it. BTW Moore is running for congress in the new 14th district which includes part of Mecklenburg County. Here's to voting for his opponent for all the angst he has cause this county.

[KJHburg]

this is why BRT will succeed in Raleigh they treat their bus system as an important transportation option where as here in Charlotte not so much.  

GoRaleigh making it easier for riders to track buses with Google Maps - ABC11 Raleigh-Durham

[tozmervo]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

this is why BRT will succeed in Raleigh they treat their bus system as an important transportation option where as here in Charlotte not so much.  

GoRaleigh making it easier for riders to track buses with Google Maps - ABC11 Raleigh-Durham

I'm not sure I understand what they have made available? CATS feeds their bus locations into Google Maps already. If you click on a stop it will show you the real time arrival information. On Google Maps mobile it will show little moving icons. 

[KJHburg]

45 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I'm not sure I understand what they have made available? CATS feeds their bus locations into Google Maps already. If you click on a stop it will show you the real time arrival information. On Google Maps mobile it will show little moving icons. 

well maybe CATS is already using that for the buses here.  

[KJHburg]

Here is what the framework for transit looks like in Nashville to be voted on this November.

Lots of BRT,

from the Nashville Biz Journal

The plan presented at the meeting by Metro Transportation Planning Director Michael Briggs includes a wide scope of projects that will be paired down to match revenue projections.

Plans presented at the meeting include:

Four bus-rapid transit lines spanning 38 miles: Murfreesboro Pike (with a connector to the airport), Gallatin Pike, Nolensville Pike and Dickerson Pike
Three priority corridors: Clarksville Pike, James Robertson Parkway and West End (West End could be upgraded to bus-rapid transit)
Sidewalks around transit centers and stops
Interconnected signals on Nashville corridors
Fourteen transit centers
24/7 service on 14 routes
New services on eight routes and service improvements on 12 routes
Bus stop improvements
Intersection improvements
The distinction between bus-rapid transit and priority corridors remains unclear. Priority corridors will have "high-level station amenities" and "are essentially [bus-rapid transit]," Justin Cole, livability planner at Nashville Department of Transportation, said at the meeting, speaking specifically about routes through downtown.

Metro estimates bus-rapid transit will cost from $38 million to $48 million per mile. In contrast, light rail is estimated to cost between $200 million and $500 million.

Briggs also highlighted key dates moving forward.

March 29: Determine financial plan for audit
May 31: Financial certification from state comptroller
June 7: Ordinance filed with Metro Council
Aug. 6: Metro Council’s final reading on the ordinance
Aug. 22: Transportation improvement program submitted to Election Commission
Oct. 16: Early voting begins
Nov. 5: Election day

[DEnd]

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Metro estimates bus-rapid transit will cost from $38 million to $48 million per mile. In contrast, light rail is estimated to cost between $200 million and $500 million.

Not to dis on BRT at all, but $48 million is a totally different level of service vs $200 million, you are not going to get the same passenger throughput or travel times for that. To get light rail level of service you will spend about the same amount of money as you would for light rail.  That said they could still get a very good system for that, but I'm skeptical anywhere in the US will make the right decisions to actually get a good BRT system.  

[jthomas]

Agree - BRT only looks attractive because of this country’s complete inability to build rail at a reasonable price. Most of what gets billed as “BRT” is really just what regular bus service should look like.

[TheMightyBK]

Am I misremembering that Independence was already BRT’ified back in the’90s?  Why are we thinking it will be successful now if it wasn’t then?

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, TheMightyBK said:

Am I misremembering that Independence was already BRT’ified back in the’90s?  Why are we thinking it will be successful now if it wasn’t then?

Nah, only that short section from 277 to Albemarle (ish)