CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[15895]

The Largest bus ridership (excluding rail) figures between Atlanta & DC. Another data point showing charlottes ridership in a broader context. 
 

DC, Maryland & Virginia:

• WMATA: 345,000
• Baltimore MTA: 186,000
• Montgomery County Ride On: 46,000
• Richmond GRTC: 29,000
• Fairfax County Connector: 26,000
• Norfolk/Virginia Beach HRT: 18,000
• Blacksburg Transit: 17,000
• Alexandria DASH: 16,000*
• Arlington ART: 7,000

The Carolinas & Georgia:

• Atlanta MARTA: 106,000
• Durham GoDurham: 17,000
• Chapel Hill Transit: 16,000
• Raleigh GoRaleigh: 14,000
• Charlotte CATS: 16,000*
• Charleston RTA: 7,000
• Columbia CMRTA: 7,000

https://ggwash.org/view/89211/ride-on-is-bigger-than-any-transit-agency-between-dc-atlanta

Charlotte’s numbers is based off 4Q22 but the numbers aren’t much different. Per CATS data, June 2023 ridership for everything including vanpools, gold & blue line etc on weekdays are 41,477 - Saturdays 34,803 and Sunday 23,855. 
https://www.charlottenc.gov/files/sharedassets/cats/mtc-meeting-summaries-amp-agendas/final-summaries-2023/final-mtc-summary-july-2023.pdf

(on a blue line note. Ridership in June 2023 for the blue line is 16,500 on weekdays, 17,300 on Saturday’s & 9,500 on sundays)

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT2014]

^ Our terrible ridership numbers are reflective of a transit system with bus network that is not operating efficiently in connecting people to where they need to go and a light rail system largely used for commuting Uptown to work 2 - 3 x/week and special events. For most households in Charlotte, transit is competing against walking or driving also (including Uber). Due to frequency on bus and rail here, walking is usually faster for close trips around a mile. Other than our very specific windows of traffic, driving is usually faster and more predictable if you need to go more than a mile. 

I think the bus is viewed as last resort (for good reason given frequency) and the light rail is viewed as a work shuttle... but I can't think of anybody I know that is like "Hey, want to go to dinner at Atherton Mill and take the light rail?" I think they'd look at me like I'm crazy and be like "Uhhh why would we do that?" and prefer to Uber or drive and park. Transit is still struggling to become part of the lifestyle in Charlotte for getting around for all aspects of life beyond a shuttle to the office. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by CLT2014

[SpiritOf76]

First time taking gold line to uptown. Wait is over 15 min now with a train parked at end of the line   Probably could have walked to next few stations by now. Concrete is already cracking and no idea where to buy a ticket …? If this is “free” who is paying?  

[davidclt]

delete

Edited August 5, 2023 by davidclt
delete

[CLT2014]

Couple of things CATS management wants to remind you while you wait on the Gold Line pedestrian island for 20 minutes while cars drive by:

1.) Taking transit on the weekend? Crazy! Get a 4Runner or Jeep like everybody else. We all have one at CATS.

2.) This is more for looks than actually getting around. So drive that Jeep to Elizabeth, park at People's Market, and then watch the train go by every 25 minutes and say "Wow, World Class. This adds a real European vibe."

3.) While you wait, calculate how far you could have driven in 25 minutes. Like while you've been waiting on a traffic island, a person with a car drove from Elizabeth to Hello Sailor on Lake Norman and is already seated enjoying a summer drink with a view of the lake. Another person walked from South End to Uptown and is hanging out with friends at a bar. As you ponder this, you will remember to avoid the Gold Line like 99.99% of the rest of Charlotte for getting around unless you enjoy standing.

^All blue font, but maybe not...

Edited August 5, 2023 by CLT2014

[SpiritOf76]

Half hour wait.  Again no ticket area? Do I pay? Who pays ? Concrete is full of cracks on most platforms. Maybe kermit has insight or answers ……

[CLT2014]

18 minutes ago, SpiritOf76 said:

Half hour wait.  Again no ticket area? Do I pay? Who pays ? Concrete is full of cracks on most platforms. Maybe kermit has insight or answers ……

It is currently free to ride until further notice as they cannot operate the route reliably and can't justify charging.

[SpiritOf76]

13 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

It is currently free to ride until further notice as they cannot operate the route reliably and can't justify charging.

Makes perfect sense 

[kermit]

I have been begging CATS to do this for years... Houston is paying to install real-time arrival screens at 3,000! stops in its system (both bus and rail). While there is some debate about weather signs are any better than getting the same data from an app, in my view displaying real-time arrival info on a sign in every rail station would make CATS much more accountable for OTP and lousy frequency. Social media posts showing "Next Train in 30 minutes" photos are relatively powerful tools for transit advocacy.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2023/08/08/houston-transit-makes-historic-26m-investment-into-real-time-arrival-screens

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by kermit

[davidclt]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

I have been begging CATS to do this for years... Houston is paying to install real-time arrival screens at 3,000! stops in its system (both bus and rail). While there is some debate about weather signs are any better than getting the same data from an app, in my view displaying real-time arrival info on a sign in every rail station would make CATS much more accountable for OTP (only a handful of people know how unreliable the CATS app is for arrival info)

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2023/08/08/houston-transit-makes-historic-26m-investment-into-real-time-arrival-screens

 

 

I make this request in every, single, CATS survey citing Paris, France (home of RATP, parent company of RATP Dev). Why can they run a successful transit system in France but not in Charlotte? It doesn't have to suck. Charlotteans enable CATS to suck and CATS sucks because Charlotteans enable it to suck (lather, rinse, repeat). The signs don't even need to be super fancy . . .

[kermit]

"We can't build more transit because nobody will ride it"

"I can't use transit because it doesn't go where I want to go"

Swapping Madrid and Atlanta rail transit maps. Both cities are roughly the same population.

Credit: @CarsRuinedCity

 

[Windsurfer]

Am enjoying living in London this year and riding the rails. There's a lot to be said for simple north-south, east-west routes. The simpler the better. Even London's can be a bewildering mess of lines crossing over themselves and redundant stops.  Too bad lines can't be planned out like spokes with a few (just a few!) lines that cross the outer reaches. For instance, a spoke that runs from Southpark to uptown, ALONG with another line from there to, say UNCC that would bypass a hub, or South park to the airport. Or, a spoke to and from Huntersville to uptown and another that runs to UNCC.  I hope I'm not confusing.

[15895]

5 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

Am enjoying living in London this year and riding the rails. There's a lot to be said for simple north-south, east-west routes. The simpler the better. Even London's can be a bewildering mess of lines crossing over themselves and redundant stops.  Too bad lines can't be planned out like spokes with a few (just a few!) lines that cross the outer reaches. For instance, a spoke that runs from Southpark to uptown, ALONG with another line from there to, say UNCC that would bypass a hub, or South park to the airport. Or, a spoke to and from Huntersville to uptown and another that runs to UNCC.  I hope I'm not confusing.

 I think I understand what you’re saying. 

I think that makes sense (hubs & spokes) in lower dense large cities like Charlotte, Dallas, etc. because they’re still auto-dominated and people use and want transit to go to destinations. 

For higher density areas, decentralized IMO is better (outside of key transfer points). It’d suck to run errands and have to constantly go to a “hub” in high dense areas that can support all those routes. 
 

How long have you been in London and curious as the pros and cons for you as a user? 

[Windsurfer]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 I think I understand what you’re saying. 

I think that makes sense (hubs & spokes) in lower dense large cities like Charlotte, Dallas, etc. because they’re still auto-dominated and people use and want transit to go to destinations. 

For higher density areas, decentralized IMO is better (outside of key transfer points). It’d suck to run errands and have to constantly go to a “hub” in high dense areas that can support all those routes. 
 

How long have you been in London and curious as the pros and cons for you as a user? 

Just arrived last month and will be here until end of May.  It's quite a labyrinth and, since I'm retired, I am in no rush to reach any particular destination....till dinner time. What I find really interesting is that, like the internet, when one server drops out of line, there's always another avenue or route to use. I've been using google directions mostly. It's just as accurate in real time as the "Transport for London" app.  

Having so many lines and choices to reach a destination can be overwhelming. You have to settle on the one of your choice and more or less stick to that plan or you'll go crazy with choices as google updates minute by minute.  Google even combines the bus routes with the rail and calculates when it's faster to combine the two, or wait at a station for another train, including your walk between stations if necessary.

The Oyster Card you can use is very convenient.  You tag it on a kiosk on the way in and out, except the busses where you just tag your card on a reader on the way in.  You can top off your account an any station. I'm guessing not having to use a credit card or cash to buy a ticker minimizes robbery.

I'll update more later...

[kermit]

19 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

I'm guessing not having to use a credit card or cash to buy a ticker minimizes robbery.

London in general, and train stations in particular, are pretty safe throughout the city. I think this is just a desire to reduce cash transactions which are a significant expense for transit systems (and are slow). If you have a contactless card you can tap that at fare gates in place of your Oyster, the system is smart enough to do the proper fare capping (I still prefer my Oyster however).

If you are still getting the lay of the land I highly recommend taking the Overground to Canada Water or Surrey Quays and then walking along the former canal (the stonework is still in the park) to Stave Hill Viewpoint, the views of the East End are pretty spectacular and its off the tourist track.

In the city the Sky Garden is a free (but reservations required), and spectacular, observation deck in the Walkie Talkie building. The developers were required to provide public space on a small footprint parcel so the free Sky Garden was their solution.

[Windsurfer]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

London in general, and train stations in particular, are pretty safe throughout the city. I think this is just a desire to reduce cash transactions which are a significant expense for transit systems (and are slow). If you have a contactless card you can tap that at fare gates in place of your Oyster, the system is smart enough to do the proper fare capping (I still prefer my Oyster however).

If you are still getting the lay of the land I highly recommend taking the Overground to Canada Water or Surrey Quays and then walking along the former canal (the stonework is still in the park) to Stave Hill Viewpoint, the views of the East End are pretty spectacular and its off the tourist track.

In the city the Sky Garden is a free (but reservations required), and spectacular, observation deck in the Walkie Talkie building. The developers were required to provide public space on a small footprint parcel so the free Sky Garden was their solution.

Thanks!  Am staying in Kingston...on The Thames itself. Have bought a bike and travelled up the river a ways, but am still timid about riding on the road.  Thanks for the tips!!

[kermit]

While CATS has been twiddling its thumbs (and re-railing the Blue Line vehicles) Chicago’s CTA has managed to land a $2 billion FTA grant for an extension of its Red Line (heavy rail). This is a project that is not hugely different from the BLE-E in terms of type of route (its a 5.6 mile extension of an existing line along an existing railroad ROW -- Ballantyne would be alongside 485 and would be about a mile shorter).

https://abc7chicago.com/cta-chicago-red-line-extension/13752649/

The degree to which Charlotte has collectively decided to forget about transit expansion is appalling. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

While CATS has been twiddling its thumbs (and re-railing the Blue Line vehicles) Chicago’s CTA has managed to land a $2 billion FTA grant for an extension of its Red Line (heavy rail). This is a project that is not hugely different from the BLE-E in terms of type of route (its a 5.6 mile extension of an existing line along an existing railroad ROW -- Ballantyne would be along 485 and would be about a mile shorter).

https://abc7chicago.com/cta-chicago-red-line-extension/13752649/

The degree to which Charlotte has collectively decided to forget about transit expansion is appalling. 

I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t know but So many cities are experiencing historical investments (federal and local) in transit. The federal Government is even saying they rather grant fewer rewards that will go to large and transformational projects, large rewards that moves projects forward (rather than just paying for studies and not enough to make large impacts.) So many transformational projects. 

Philadelphia & Baltimore will probably be next in line for new heavy rail subway  lines to get enormous federal funding (Baltimore red line, Philadelphia Roosevelt Blvd. Subway) 

Yet we have CATS slashing gold line frequencies and operating the agency as if it’s still 2021.  All I hear is “but Covid”. Covid Pandemic is over. Everywhere else seemingly had their service restored. Bus ridership all over the country is breaking even pre-pandemic records, etc. Apparently Charlotte is one of the only places with transit worker shortages still. But at the end of the day, Charlotte is growing and that’s the ultimate trump card on not having vision for local leaders it seems. 

[kermit]

^ even MARTA has recently increased frequencies across the board (and seen a nice ridership bump as a result). We really are the last transit system to still be “struggling with worker shortages”.

https://www.midtownatl.com/about/news-center/post/increased-marta-frequency-strengthens-transit-appeal-for-midtown-commuters

Edited September 9, 2023 by kermit

[Eastern]

Elections are coming soon in Charlotte. Its time to get visionaries into office. Not just seat warmers with smiling faces. Sweep all of the do nothings out of office from the mayor down and get a new city manager who knows the power of good logistics. Vote and take two people to the poles with you.

[Desert Power]

19 hours ago, Eastern said:

Elections are coming soon in Charlotte. Its time to get visionaries into office. Not just seat warmers with smiling faces. Sweep all of the do nothings out of office from the mayor down and get a new city manager who knows the power of good logistics. Vote and take two people to the poles with you.

Are there non-incumbents that are pro-transit? Most of the opposition to current elected officials seem even more anti-transit.

I agree with your point about the city's current leadership though. They are inept on multiple fronts. A lot of talk and very little action (unless a sports team wants money).

Edited September 9, 2023 by Desert Power

[Third Strike]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:51 AM, Desert Power said:

Are there non-incumbents that are pro-transit? Most of the opposition to current elected officials seem even more anti-transit.

I agree with your point about the city's current leadership though. They are inept on multiple fronts. A lot of talk and very little action (unless a sports team wants money).

Ben Copeland is pro-transit and running for one of the At-Large seats. Democratic primary is next Tuesday. 

[TCLT]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:58 PM, Eastern said:

Elections are coming soon in Charlotte. Its time to get visionaries into office. Not just seat warmers with smiling faces. Sweep all of the do nothings out of office from the mayor down and get a new city manager who knows the power of good logistics. Vote and take two people to the poles with you.

Look at the slate. It's awful. There aren't enough people running to sweep everyone out of office and the few challengers there are to the incumbents are mostly not serious candidates. The unfortunate reality is that there is not going to be any change this cycle.

17 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Ben Copeland is pro-transit and running for one of the At-Large seats. Democratic primary is next Tuesday. 

He's got good ideas and is exactly the type of fresh face we need, but let's be honest here a 21 year old college student is not winning an at large city council seat. 

edit: Well, with turnout this abysmal it actually might be possible (though still unlikely) for anyone to win 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by TCLT
sad turnout

[kermit]

For significantly less than half of the estimated cost of the Silver Line (29 miles), Toulouse France (population < 500,000)  is building a 17-mile, fully-automated metro line with 21 stations—most underground, including a new downtown subway.  Emphasis on fully automated and underground. Average construction worker wage in France is roughly 10% higher than here. 

We used to build things in this country...

Hat tip to Yonah Freemark.

Edited September 11, 2023 by kermit

[davidclt]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

For significantly less than half of the estimated cost of the Silver Line (29 miles), Toulouse France (population < 500,000)  is building a 17-mile, fully-automated metro line with 21 stations—most underground, including a new downtown subway.  Emphasis on fully automated and underground. Average construction worker wage in France is roughly 10% higher than here. 

We used to build things in this country...

Hat tip to Yonah Freemark.

Maybe if we spent less money doing studies (an excuse to delay if every there was one, well that and "blue ribbon" commissions), our leaders quit being afraid of taking risks and being called out when they take a risk . . . we'd see things go better.

Subway costs: we finally know why it costs so much to build public transit in the U.S. (slate.com)