CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Reverie39]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:57 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t know but So many cities are experiencing historical investments (federal and local) in transit. The federal Government is even saying they rather grant fewer rewards that will go to large and transformational projects, large rewards that moves projects forward (rather than just paying for studies and not enough to make large impacts.) So many transformational projects. 

Philadelphia & Baltimore will probably be next in line for new heavy rail subway  lines to get enormous federal funding (Baltimore red line, Philadelphia Roosevelt Blvd. Subway) 

Yet we have CATS slashing gold line frequencies and operating the agency as if it’s still 2021.  All I hear is “but Covid”. Covid Pandemic is over. Everywhere else seemingly had their service restored. Bus ridership all over the country is breaking even pre-pandemic records, etc. Apparently Charlotte is one of the only places with transit worker shortages still. But at the end of the day, Charlotte is growing and that’s the ultimate trump card on not having vision for local leaders it seems. 

It is absolutely bonkers that Baltimore is getting a second heavy rail subway line with tons of funding while Charlotte sits considering whether a second light rail line is a good idea or not. Nearly identical metros by population, and Charlotte is growing a hell of a lot faster.  If Charlotte was smart it would point to Baltimore as a prime example of why it should also be receiving huge grants for transit. Why do I get the sense that with the right effort, Charlotte could have at least gotten a 3-car Silver Line that runs underground through Uptown in the works by now? Am I wrong about that? 

[15895]

3 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

It is absolutely bonkers that Baltimore is getting a second heavy rail subway line with tons of funding while Charlotte sits considering whether a second light rail line is a good idea or not. Nearly identical metros by population, and Charlotte is growing a hell of a lot faster.  If Charlotte was smart it would point to Baltimore as a prime example of why it should also be receiving huge grants for transit. Why do I get the sense that with the right effort, Charlotte could have at least gotten a 3-car Silver Line that runs underground through Uptown in the works by now? Am I wrong about that? 

The Legislature of Maryland had this project ready to go as soon as a Democrat became governor. Hogan I believe turned down federal dollars but the Democratic legislature kept passing bills to be able to hit the ground running for when a Dem (Wes Moore) was elected and one of  his top priorities is the Red Line and has an aggressive timeline to have shovels in the ground by the end of his first term.

A Twitter account I’ve enjoyed for a while, Jerome Alexander Horne @jahorne actually just announced he moved to Baltimore to take a position with the Maryland Department of Transportation (MDOT) as communications director for the red line. https://redlinemaryland.com That is the website from MDOT for the red line.  Compare that state support compared to what Tim Moore has said about mass transit in NC…
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a sense that there’s no end in sight to the GOP rule of NC that leaders feel adequate transit is pie-in-the-sky & it is what it is. If NC had a pro-urban legislature (or at very least  a legislature that wasn’t anti-urban), who knows what Charlotte leadership would look like regarding transit. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[carolinaboy]

15 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

It is absolutely bonkers that Baltimore is getting a second heavy rail subway line with tons of funding while Charlotte sits considering whether a second light rail line is a good idea or not. Nearly identical metros by population, and Charlotte is growing a hell of a lot faster.  If Charlotte was smart it would point to Baltimore as a prime example of why it should also be receiving huge grants for transit. Why do I get the sense that with the right effort, Charlotte could have at least gotten a 3-car Silver Line that runs underground through Uptown in the works by now? Am I wrong about that? 

I've been saying for a while that Charlotte ought to build a new line from the airport to uptown and the uptown portion could be underground. Then if demand is there, extend that line to other locations. But at least connect the airport to a new Amtrak terminal to uptown. Focus on fixing the Blue Line issues also instead of building some additional line (except for the airport to uptown portion of course). If future demand is not there to extend light rail so-be-it.

I read posters on here complain about not getting funding from the GOP led state legislature. Can the city "by-pass" the state and seek funds directly from the Feds or, you know, raise city taxes or find other municipal funding mechanisms? If the state is a roadblock, are there ways around them? Is approval required from the state for Charlotte's transportation needs? I ask because I don't know.

If transportation via light rail is paramount to Charlotte it ought to be very high priority. If a billionaire needs public funding for a new stadium or arena.....tell them to pound sand or finance it themselves. Limited public dollars ought to be used for public needs like light-rail, commuter-rail, BRT, regular bus lines, etc. rather than aiding billionaires. Get out of expensive public/private partnership development projects. Let the market work. If it's financially feasible let private developers foot the bill and assume the risk. Use those public dollars on transportation or other important public projects (parks, bike lanes, libraries, schools, sidewalks, police, fire, EMS........)

[kermit]

2 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

I read posters on here complain about not getting funding from the GOP led state legislature. Can the city "by-pass" the state and seek funds directly from the Feds or, you know, raise city taxes or find other municipal funding mechanisms? If the state is a roadblock, are there ways around them? Is approval required from the state for Charlotte's transportation needs? I ask because I don't know.

We are at the point now where Charlotte no longer expects any funds from the state for transit, we are only asking for permission from the state to raise our own funds by increasing the  county-wide sales tax. Legislators have made it clear that they will not provide this permission unless the ‘transit’ plan adds a large road spending component. The city could increase property taxes without state permission to fund transit, but it is politically reluctant to do so because of the once a year visibility of such an increase. 

Even if we did find a reasonable way to increase local revenues to make the federal funding match, the state could still ‘take revenge’ for daring to build transit without their permission. Back when McCrory was gov, Raleigh threatened to cut other money it was sending to Charlotte as retaliation for building Gold Line phase 2 with local money against their wishes. The threats of the state to seize the airport came after the city asked the airport to -investigate- funding some Silver line components on airport property. (Not saying the causality was 100%, but this was mentioned in Raleigh). The right wing nut jobs in Raleigh have shown themselves to be incredibly vindictive against transit, even when they don’t pay a dime for it.

Edited September 12, 2023 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

4 minutes ago, kermit said:

We are at the point now where Charlotte no longer expects any funds from the state for transit, we are only asking for permission from the state to increase the county-wide sales tax (and the state has been refusing to allow this self-imposed tax increase). The city could increase property taxes without state permission to fund transit, but it is politically reluctant to do so because of the once a year visibility of such an increase. 

Even if we did find a reasonable way to increase local revenues to make the federal funding match, the state could still ‘take revenge’ for daring to build transit without their permission. Back when McCrory was gov, Raleigh threatened to cut other money it was sending to Charlotte as retaliation for building Gold Line phase 2 with local money against their wishes. The right wing nut jobs in Raleigh have shown themselves to be incredibly vindictive against transit.

Forget the sales tax increase if you have to beg the state for permission. If officials are too afraid to "raise" taxes because of the optics, don't raise taxes but find other areas to cut costs (remove redundant positions, don't give money for stadiums, don't give money for half of a development, don't buy new this or that for a while) and allocate those savings towards transit options. If not enough money could be saved then raise local property taxes. This is why taxes are collected......to pay for items the citizenry deems important (which by reading Urban Planet seems to be transit options).  Seems like the state is being used as an excuse by your local leaders to not make tough or unpopular decisions.

[kermit]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:35 AM, carolinaboy said:

Forget the sales tax increase if you have to beg the state for permission. If officials are too afraid to "raise" taxes because of the optics, don't raise taxes but find other areas to cut costs (remove redundant positions, don't give money for stadiums, don't give money for half of a development, don't buy new this or that for a while) and allocate those savings towards transit options. If not enough money could be saved then raise local property taxes. This is why taxes are collected......to pay for items the citizenry deems important (which by reading Urban Planet seems to be transit options).  Seems like the state is being used as an excuse by your local leaders to not make tough or unpopular decisions.

While I agree in theory, in practice its not so straightforward. The trimming municipal costs angle would, at best, be a tiny fraction of needed revenues (the city budget is $3 billion ish, we need to find $4 billion of local money for the Silver based on current numbers). I agree that massive stadium upgrade spending sole to benefit billionaires is stupid, however, the hospitality taxes used for the stadium are earmarked for things that increase hotel room night spending (and cant legally be spent on things like transit).

I do agree that the city could be doing much more with TIF and municipal service districts and I would really like to see a parking tax.

FWIW, Ron Carlee did find $75 million in city hall couch cushions for the GL2. But even that source of local funding earned the wrath of the state.

Edited September 13, 2023 by kermit

[kayman]

18 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

It is absolutely bonkers that Baltimore is getting a second heavy rail subway line with tons of funding while Charlotte sits considering whether a second light rail line is a good idea or not. Nearly identical metros by population, and Charlotte is growing a hell of a lot faster.  If Charlotte was smart it would point to Baltimore as a prime example of why it should also be receiving huge grants for transit. Why do I get the sense that with the right effort, Charlotte could have at least gotten a 3-car Silver Line that runs underground through Uptown in the works by now? Am I wrong about that? 

 

15 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The Legislature of Maryland had this project ready to go as soon as a Democrat became governor. Hogan I believe turned down federal dollars but the Democratic legislature kept passing bills to be able to hit the ground running for when a Dem (Wes Moore) was elected and one of  his top priorities is the Red Line and has an aggressive timeline to have shovels in the ground by the end of his first term.

A Twitter account I’ve enjoyed for a while, Jerome Alexander Horne @jahorne actually just announced he moved to Baltimore to take a position with the Maryland Department of Transportation (MDOT) as communications director for the red line. https://redlinemaryland.com That is the website from MDOT for the red line.  Compare that state support compared to what Tim Moore has said about mass transit in NC…
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a sense that there’s no end in sight to the GOP rule of NC that leaders feel adequate transit is pie-in-the-sky & it is what it is. If NC had a pro-urban legislature (or at very least  a legislature that wasn’t anti-urban), who knows what Charlotte leadership would look like regarding transit. 

 

3 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

I've been saying for a while that Charlotte ought to build a new line from the airport to uptown and the uptown portion could be underground. Then if demand is there, extend that line to other locations. But at least connect the airport to a new Amtrak terminal to uptown. Focus on fixing the Blue Line issues also instead of building some additional line (except for the airport to uptown portion of course). If future demand is not there to extend light rail so-be-it.

I read posters on here complain about not getting funding from the GOP led state legislature. Can the city "by-pass" the state and seek funds directly from the Feds or, you know, raise city taxes or find other municipal funding mechanisms? If the state is a roadblock, are there ways around them? Is approval required from the state for Charlotte's transportation needs? I ask because I don't know.

If transportation via light rail is paramount to Charlotte it ought to be very high priority. If a billionaire needs public funding for a new stadium or arena.....tell them to pound sand or finance it themselves. Limited public dollars ought to be used for public needs like light-rail, commuter-rail, BRT, regular bus lines, etc. rather than aiding billionaires. Get out of expensive public/private partnership development projects. Let the market work. If it's financially feasible let private developers foot the bill and assume the risk. Use those public dollars on transportation or other important public projects (parks, bike lanes, libraries, schools, sidewalks, police, fire, EMS........)

 

2 hours ago, kermit said:

We are at the point now where Charlotte no longer expects any funds from the state for transit, we are only asking for permission from the state to raise our own funds by increasing the  county-wide sales tax. Legislators have made it clear that they will not provide this permission unless the ‘transit’ plan adds a large road spending component. The city could increase property taxes without state permission to fund transit, but it is politically reluctant to do so because of the once a year visibility of such an increase. 

Even if we did find a reasonable way to increase local revenues to make the federal funding match, the state could still ‘take revenge’ for daring to build transit without their permission. Back when McCrory was gov, Raleigh threatened to cut other money it was sending to Charlotte as retaliation for building Gold Line phase 2 with local money against their wishes. The threats of the state to seize the airport came after the city asked the airport to -investigate- funding some Silver line components on airport property. (Not saying the causality was 100%, but this was mentioned in Raleigh). The right wing nut jobs in Raleigh have shown themselves to be incredibly vindictive against transit, even when they don’t pay a dime for it.

 

2 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Forget the sales tax increase if you have to beg the state for permission. If officials are too afraid to "raise" taxes because of the optics, don't raise taxes but find other areas to cut costs

2 hours ago, kermit said:

While I agree in theory, in practice its not so straightforward. The trimming municipal costs angle would, at best, be a tiny fraction of needed revenues (the city budget is $3 billion ish, we need to find $4 billion for the Silver based on current numbers). I agree that massive stadium upgrade spending so billionaires can make more is stupid, however, the hospitality taxes used for the stadium are earmarked for things that increase hotel room night spending (and cant legally be spent on things like transit).

I do agree that the city could be doing much more with TIF and municipal service districts.

FWIW, Ron Carlee did find $75 million in city hall couch cushions for the GL2. But even that source of local funding earned the wrath of the state.

(remove redundant positions, don't give money for stadiums, don't give money for half of a development, don't buy new this or that for a while) and allocate those savings towards transit options. If not enough money could be saved then raise local property taxes. This is why taxes are collected......to pay for items the citizenry deems important (which by reading Urban Planet seems to be transit options).  Seems like the state is being used as an excuse by your local leaders to not make tough or unpopular decisions.

All of these things are tied to home rule provisions. NC is the only East Coast state without a home rule provision within its state constitution.  Lobby for that and it will allow us to have control over our local taxation. 

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

This is why taxes are collected......to pay for items the citizenry deems important (which by reading Urban Planet seems to be transit options). 

I chuckled at this line and at the thought of Urban Planet bloviating as being reflective of what the “citizenry” deems important…

[Eastern]

Charlotte and Mecklenburg county should cut a secret deal to be annexed by SC in exchange for being given the right to have a Pennies for Progress program like the one in York County but with the 1 cent sales tax dedicated to transit and have no sunset clause. See more on the program in York County here https://www.cn2.com/pennies-for-progress-program-update/ 

Losing the  big chunk of revenue that the rogue republican dictatorship at the NCGA gets from Charlotte and Mecklenburg County would cripple the state  for decades and wake up even their most hardened  anti-urban supporters to the value of this county and its needs.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Eastern
clarify sentence purpose

[lit]

What if we had a company like Cintra (but not Cintra) build and operate the rail lines for us? I'm sure the fares would be more expensive, but maybe they'd be better enforced(?)

[kermit]

19 hours ago, lit said:

What if we had a company like Cintra (but not Cintra) build and operate the rail lines for us? I'm sure the fares would be more expensive, but maybe they'd be better enforced(?)

My very back of the envelope estimates:

Silver Line Capital costs $6 billion (private company gets an efficiency discount on the currently estimated $8 bill)

Ridership = 50,000 per day (double the pre covid Blue Line, because why not be generous)

Recoup capital costs over 20 years (a guess)

Fare required to recoup capital costs in 20 years = $16.50 (if my math is right). This is much lower than I had expected.

that figure does not include profit, interest, taxes, depreciation or an appropriate risk premium — bond holders will want 15% plus on a project like this (actually bond buyers would not touch this without a government backstop).

Gonna be tough to compete against heavily subsidized roads (property taxes pay for city streets and income taxes increasingly make up for state and federal DOT deficits) at such a fare.

The actual financial returns of fixed-guideway transit come from higher land use density and the associated increased tax revenues. Since private companies can’t capture many of these benefits it generally make sense for governments to pay for transit (since they will recieve the greatest ROI). The primary example people use for public companies building and operating transit is the MTR in Hong Kong, they are primarily  real estate company (they hold long term leases on the land above stations). It’s tough to build a real estate monopoly in an established US city.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

My very back of the envelope estimates:

Silver Line Capital costs $6 billion (private company gets an efficiency discount on the currently estimated $8 bill)

Ridership = 50,000 per day (double the pre covid Blue Line, because why not be generous)

Recoup capital costs over 20 years (a guess)

Fare required to recoup capital costs in 20 years = $16.50 (if my math is right). This is much lower than I had expected.

that figure does not include profit, interest, taxes, depreciation or an appropriate risk premium — bond holders will want 15% plus on a project like this (actually bond buyers would not touch this without a government backstop).

Gonna be tough to compete against heavily subsidized roads (property taxes pay for city streets and income taxes increasingly make up for state and federal DOT deficits) at such a fare.

The actual financial returns of fixed-guideway transit come from higher land use density and the associated increased tax revenues. Since private companies can’t capture all of those benefits it tends to make sense for governments to pay for transit. The primary example people use for public companies building and operating transit is the MTR in Hong Kong, they are primarily  real estate company (they hold long term leases on the land above stations). It’s tough to build a real estate monopoly in an established US city.

 

What if the city (or whatever government entity) still pays to acquire the ROW and parcels at station locations. The land stays publicly owned but the private entity is granted long term leases on the ROW and those station parcels for no cost. ROW/land acquisition has got to be one of the largest parts of the cost. Cap fares as part of the agreement so there's more incentive to develop the land at and around stations into something that generates revenue (which also usually means more amenities for riders and residents and more incentive to use and live around transit).

[kermit]

^ This is the Gateway Station PPP model. Not sure I want a repeat of that for something as urgent as intra-city transit.

[kermit]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:33 PM, kermit said:

For significantly less than half of the estimated cost of the Silver Line (29 miles), Toulouse France (population < 500,000)  is building a 17-mile, fully-automated metro line with 21 stations—most underground, including a new downtown subway.  Emphasis on fully automated and underground. Average construction worker wage in France is roughly 10% higher than here. 

Closer to home, in one of the most highly unionized areas of North America Montreal scores w reasonable transit construction costs. It is also being financed by a public pension fund.

These same costs would put the Silver Line at around $3.3 billionish. how much longer are we just going to shrug and dismiss this with ‘murica is different’?
 

The RLX mentioned is the Chicago Red Line extension which just got federal funding.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Very optimistic article in the Ledger on the prospects for a regional transit authority:

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/momentum-builds-for-regional-transit

Not much substance here, just a bunch of officials talking up good vibes. I am having a very hard time imagining Union County joining (but most of the quotes are from Waxhaw mayor). One nitpick, Mecia says there are only two Regional Transit Authorities in the state but he overlooked PART in the Triad. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by kermit

[blt23]

22 hours ago, kermit said:

Closer to home, in one of the most highly unionized areas of North America Montreal scores w reasonable transit construction costs. It is also being financed by a public pension fund.

These same costs would put the Silver Line at around $3.3 billionish. how much longer are we just going to shrug and dismiss this with ‘murica is different’?
 

The RLX mentioned is the Chicago Red Line extension which just got federal funding.

 

This is a misleading comparison because about half of those 42 miles are just conversion of a well used commuter line to rapid transit (light metro). So in terms of new rail transit service it's more like 20 miles for $5 billion. 

But that's still embarrassing for us considering it's a fully automated and grade separated metro with 2.5 minute peak headways and potential for even higher frequencies in the future.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, blt23 said:

This is a misleading comparison because about half of those 42 miles are just conversion of a well used commuter line to rapid transit (light metro). So in terms of new rail transit service it's more like 20 miles for $5 billion. 

But that's still embarrassing for us considering it's a fully automated and grade separated metro with 2.5 minute peak headways and potential for even higher frequencies in the future.

This is a completely fair point, although the currently planned route for the Silver Line uses NS ROW and runs inside Independence blvd ROW for nearly 1/2 its route. This is not to say that the Silver Line uses any existing tracks (it will not), but I believe that all of the commuter rail tracks have been removed and rebuilt. The Mount Royal tunnel has also been fully refurbished and new tracks laid. Not sure there is a ton of difference in the amount of rail being built.

[TCLT]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:05 PM, kermit said:

^ This is the Gateway Station PPP model. Not sure I want a repeat of that for something as urgent as intra-city transit.

"Urgent" being at best 15 years away from half a new line...

[kayman]

On 9/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, kermit said:

Very optimistic article in the Ledger on the prospects for a regional transit authority:

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/momentum-builds-for-regional-transit

Not much substance here, just a bunch of officials talking up good vibes. I am having a very hard time imagining Union County joining (but most of the quotes are from Waxhaw mayor). One nitpick, Mecia says there are only two Regional Transit Authorities in the state but he overlooked PART in the Triad. 

Union County might not but I could see Stallings, Indian Trail, Monroe, and Waxhaw all joining said regional transit authority via annual municipal budgetary line items.  NC law allows transit funding both counties and municipalities to implement the such measures. Stallings, Indian Trail, and Monroe have all shown significant interest in regional transit regardless of what the MAGA heehaws voted in via at-large seats on the Union County Commission says. The authority would likely comprise of Mecklenburg, Cabarrus, Gaston, and possibly Rowan initially due to the more urban and cohesive nature of these counties towards transit with fixed route buses and TOD planning are adopted. 

Mecia was also wrong about Waxhaw mayor Ron Pappas' role on a regional transit board.  He is currently chair of the Charlotte urban area MPO board, CRTPO, which does the regional multimodal transportation planning and federally-mandated metropolitan planning funds allocation body. The local media ought to understand there is a difference between the MTC which oversees transit and MPO policy board/technical advisory committee. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by kayman

[kermit]

Ed Driggs is suggesting that NS has had some type of a change of heart on the Red Line:

Quote

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — In a simple vote to fund a redesign of the LYNX's Red Line commuter rail last week, Charlotte City Council seemed to signal a big development in the city's overall mobility plan, which has been mired by inaction recently.

"There have been very promising developments. And we are hopeful that we will be able to proceed with the rest of our mobility plan, having dealt with this issue, which held us up for quite a long time," Ed Driggs, Chair of the City's Transportation, Planning and Development Committee, said.

While I hope that something has shaken loose, I haven't heard anything other than this article that makes me think NS is now more flexible. I'll be happy to discover that my skepticism is misplaced if additional news emerges. 

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/politics/flashpoint/charlotte-city-council-acting-new-rail-line/275-86bbb6f3-21bf-4657-a230-40fffc60803a

[having said that, NCDOT did submit an application for passenger corridor development from Winston to Charlotte on these tracks. Perhaps the combination of both inter-city funds and transit development might allow for construction at the scale NS would need to see? But I still doubt it.]

Edited September 22, 2023 by kermit

[Reverie39]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:11 PM, kermit said:

Ed Driggs is suggesting that NS has had some type of a change of heart on the Red Line:

While I hope that something has shaken loose, I haven't heard anything other than this article that makes me think NS is now more flexible. I'll be happy to be wrong about my skepticism. 

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/politics/flashpoint/charlotte-city-council-acting-new-rail-line/275-86bbb6f3-21bf-4657-a230-40fffc60803a

[having said that, NCDOT did submit an application for passenger corridor development from Winston to Charlotte on these tracks. Perhaps the combination of both inter-city funds and transit development might allow for construction at the scale NS would need to see? But I still doubt it.]

Woah! That's big news. Fingers crossed. 

We have been so caught up in light rail talk for so long that I almost forgot about commuter rail too. Given that Charlotte is and will continue to be a very sprawling metro area, this is just as important for the region. Hoping to hear more good news on the Red Line, and also would like to see some early action taken on the other obvious commuter option along Amtrak lines from Salisbury into Uptown and on the other side from Kings Mountain into Uptown. This is such a no-brainer in my mind.

In a theoretical future where we have the Blue Line (extended to Ballantyne), Silver Line, Gold Line (extended), Red Line, and two additional commuter lines as described above, we are actually looking at Charlotte having a pretty impressive transit system. Would look great to see all those lines on a map.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Reverie39

[15895]

35 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Woah! That's big news. Fingers crossed. 

We have been so caught up in light rail talk for so long that I almost forgot about commuter rail too. Given that Charlotte is and will continue to be a very sprawling metro area, this is just as important for the region. Hoping to hear more good news on the Red Line, and also would like to see some early action taken on the other obvious commuter option along Amtrak lines from Salisbury into Uptown and on the other side from Kings Mountain into Uptown. This is such a no-brainer in my mind.

In a theoretical future where we have the Blue Line (extended to Ballantyne), Silver Line, Gold Line (extended), Red Line, and two additional commuter lines as described above, we are actually looking at Charlotte having a pretty impressive transit system. Would look great to see all those lines on a map.

 

How do you (and anyone else) feel about red line being commuter rail? 

Im not big on commuter rail in the ways the Red Line has been presented. The most successful commuter rails seem to operate as a “rapid transit system” with 30 minute or less frequencies (and typically even less for the inner portion as lines mostly overlap). But I’d loveee if the region doubled down in the corridor and really refreshed the vision for the red line!

I’m thinking Denver’s Airport heavy rail, DC’s MARC Penn Line, etc. A lot of systems are actually converting lines to electric and making upgrades to their commuter rails (including changing some signage from commuter rail to “Regional Rail”) to be even more rapid similar to RER in Paris. 

I think the most likely scenario for Charlotte may be something similar to VRE in DC, Nashville or Austin’s rail. Austin at least has some weekend service. I just think Charlotte’s red line would be M-F, trains into the city the morning, trains out in the evening. I think the corridor indisputably could handle more service, I just have a hard time seeing that panning out based on regional leadership (though maybe if NC outright owned the tracks and electrified it, maybe it wouldn’t be a stretch?)

Something interesting to watch as a model for the red line IMO will be Salt Lakes Front Runner. They’re in the process of expanding and double tracking. From Wikipedia:

“In 2021, Utah passed legislation to fund a project to double track FrontRunner at strategic locations.^[35]The double tracking would allow for the system to increase maximum frequency from 30 minutes to 15,^[36] and potentially add express trains with limited stops.^[37] In May 2023, UTA officials said construction on the next phase of double tracking would begin in 2025 and be completed by 2029.”

Now that would be *amazing* if the Red Line had 15/30 minute bi-directional frequencies.  And purely opinion, I’d really geek out if the red line had Trains similar to Denver’s commuter trains:

Red Line conceptual designs so far (which the train people here can correct anything I said because I’m dumb with trains) gives M-F vibes for sure and doesn’t seem capable of high frequency due to no electrification or something. 

[kermit]

^ yea, the most recent (now nearly 20 years old) plan for the red line was morning into uptown, afternoons out with very little by directional, afternoon or weekend service. This is a totally pointless model in the hybrid work era. They will need to run it as regional rail (30 minute, bi-directional service) in order to get federal funding . This type of service is going to require a lot of give from both NS and CSX (which is why I am still skeptical of anything really changing with the Red Line)

Edited September 22, 2023 by kermit

[SMSRedux]

So much has changed in such a short period since the Red line was last seriously studied. I'd hope they'd re-evaluate and consider a more regional rail approach rather than commuter rail approach. I see a ton of potential with Charlotte and the eventual Gateway station with regional rail. Alignments to Mooresville, Concord, Gastonia, Rock Hill and Monroe along existing corridors for example. I'd envision something more along the lines of Stadler Flirts or other DMU type systems. See Texrail, DART, Ottawa for current systems with similar rolling stock.

Creating both inbound and outbound consistent transit availability could lay the groundwork for some great urban nodes and sensible densification radiating out from Charlotte. Some existing stops in local towns have good legacy bones already and could see great TOD where prudent. As with the Blue line, a review of zoning and long term station plans would be paramount to it's success with the lines being for residents, not just commuters.

[Reverie39]

Very much agree on 30 min all day frequencies inbound and outbound if possible. Essentially operating more as long-range rapid transit than a true commuter service. 77 is a busy freeway and gives the sense that lots of people are trying to get from Charlotte to the Lake Norman area and vice versa pretty constantly. I have a feeling electrification will never be a possibility given how hard it has been to even get Red Line talks off the ground. Are the examples provided above (Denver airport, etc.) regular non-electric (diesel?) train lines? Basically I'm asking if there is a precedent to using conventional trains in such a relatively high-frequency regional service. If so, and Charlotte can implement that, I think we could see the Red Line/77 corridor absolutely explode with pockets of dense development.

Edit: I'm looking at downtown Cornelius on Google Earth. Developers would be salivating over all this empty land and parking. Thousands of people could live, work, and play from here if connected by a Red Line like the one described above.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Reverie39