CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Very much agree on 30 min all day frequencies inbound and outbound if possible. Essentially operating more as long-range rapid transit than a true commuter service. 77 is a busy freeway and gives the sense that lots of people are trying to get from Charlotte to the Lake Norman area and vice versa pretty constantly. I have a feeling electrification will never be a possibility given how hard it has been to even get Red Line talks off the ground. Are the examples provided above (Denver airport, etc.) regular non-electric (diesel?) train lines? Basically I'm asking if there is a precedent to using conventional trains in such a relatively high-frequency regional service. If so, and Charlotte can implement that, I think we could see the Red Line/77 corridor absolutely explode with pockets of dense development.

Edit: I'm looking at downtown Cornelius on Google Earth. Developers would be salivating over all this empty land and parking. Thousands of people could live, work, and play from here if connected by a Red Line like the one described above.

Denver’s heavy rail is electric, but there is plenty of high frequency service like this worldwide that is still diesel (particularly in the UK and parts of Germany). In general electric rail begins to make sense when you exceed 20 trains per day (ish). NS would not be happy about wires however. There is remote possibility of hydrogen or battery electric, but high frequency service on the red line would certainly need to be diesel to start.

Rail to Camp Northend would  be a thing.

Edited September 22, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

Very much agree on 30 min all day frequencies inbound and outbound if possible. Essentially operating more as long-range rapid transit than a true commuter service. 77 is a busy freeway and gives the sense that lots of people are trying to get from Charlotte to the Lake Norman area and vice versa pretty constantly. I have a feeling electrification will never be a possibility given how hard it has been to even get Red Line talks off the ground. Are the examples provided above (Denver airport, etc.) regular non-electric (diesel?) train lines? Basically I'm asking if there is a precedent to using conventional trains in such a relatively high-frequency regional service. If so, and Charlotte can implement that, I think we could see the Red Line/77 corridor absolutely explode with pockets of dense development.

Edit: I'm looking at downtown Cornelius on Google Earth. Developers would be salivating over all this empty land and parking. Thousands of people could live, work, and play from here if connected by a Red Line like the one described above.

For electrified “commuter rail” services, SEPTA, CAL Train just got electrified, MARC Penn Line, Metra has a line, NJT, Metro North (NY), South Shore Line, Denver & MBTA is studying electrification as far as I know. Others mentioned DMU’s which seem to still be M-F systems mostly? Denver is new so I think that’s proof enough Charlotte could do it too IMO. 

And since I mentioned them:

CALTrain’s new trains:

A lot of people don’t even know Metro North exist. Ridership is hitting 200,000+ these days 

 

IMO Developers would build so fast your head would spin around red line stations with all day frequency & could be great areas to live car-free (as I’ve stayed a ton of times, LKN in North Meck is quite car-free friendly. At least when they had their village riders) 

Edited September 21, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[SMSRedux]

Plenty of new examples of modern DMU regional lines in north America. See DART Silver line (U/C), Ottawa updated O-Train, Texrail (Fort Worth to DFW), Austin MetroRail, Arrow, eBART and of course the EMU version mentioned above for Caltrain electrification. These are all versions of Stadlers FLIRT and KISS trainsets. These lines offer more consistent service/intervals in both directions. They are/can be manufactured in the U.S (Salt Lake City), are available in various configurations and compliant with US rail regulations.

[kermit]

The Red Line -could- be electric (under wire) but NS will certainly push back against that due to height limitations created by the cat wires for freight (Denver only has freight conflicts on one of their three commuter lines IIRC). Some freight (including double stack intermodal) does run under wire in the US so it is possible, but its unusual outside the NEC.

All of this discussion is governed by how much control NS is willing to give up on their wholly-owned tracks. All of the indications so far are that they are unwilling to make -any- compromises on horizontal (for level boarding at stations) or vertical (for Cat wires) clearances or capacity.

Edited September 29, 2023 by kermit

[seththom]

It'll be interesting to see what comes of the redesign for sure. I'm also sure NS isn't going to play ball with electrification due to their >$2.5 Billion investment to make the whole Crescent corridor able to run double-stacks, especially if they still see the O-line as an alternative to the NCRR in the future.

Living in Fort Worth now (recently departed), the DMU approach is surprisingly better than a lot of people give it credit for. I'd love TEXRail to run 30 minutes all day (it's currently only peak periods) but the DMUs are quiet, comfortable, and really a great experience.

I think electrification only makes sense from an economic perspective if the stations are a lot denser than TEXRail for the acceleration purposes. In reality, most of the stations on the line have at least 3-5 miles of separation, so there's good opportunity to run at 60 mph. Trips to DFW (27 miles) take about 50 minutes or so. Really a big fan of the service in Fort Worth, and with Charlotte's proven success on TOD, am sure the service would be immensely successful if they ever get around to it, even with no electrification.

[seththom]

Also did some digging, the contract is apparently going to HDR for the red line who also developed the Connect Beyond plan: https://www.connect-beyond.com/plan/

RFQ and Selection are here: https://www.charlottenc.gov/Growth-and-Development/Doing-Business/Contract-Opportunities/LYNX-Red-Line-Design-Update

Edited September 22, 2023 by seththom

[tozmervo]

Added July data to the March data posted in the past. Still seeing some healthy clawing-back of ridership, but still trailing far behind other systems. As repeated ad naseum, I agree that failure to staff and restore pre-pandemic schedules has really hurt the recovery in ridership. 

[kermit]

13 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Added July data to the March data posted in the past. Still seeing some healthy clawing-back of ridership, but still trailing far behind other systems. As repeated ad naseum, I agree that failure to staff and restore pre-pandemic schedules has really hurt the recovery in ridership. 

Are the farebox issues legit? They have been using them as an excuse for at least 4 years and I had thought they had gotten a grant to replace all bus fareboxes already.

[tozmervo]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

Are the farebox issues legit? They have been using them as an excuse for at least 4 years and I had thought they had gotten a grant to replace all bus fareboxes already.

Who knows. They called out specific months from last year, which made it seem more legit. (But no less frustrating)

[15895]

19 minutes ago, kermit said:

Are the farebox issues legit? They have been using them as an excuse for at least 4 years and I had thought they had gotten a grant to replace all bus fareboxes already.

I thought even before 4 years ago, revenue from bus ridership seemed to be falling steadily for years and they suspected it was from lost fare collections so they installed new fare boxes and ways to count riders and it too showed lower ridership than expected that matched up with the lower revenue. 

That’s the last I remember 

Edited September 26, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[elrodvt]

All the more reason we should spend less time on expanding lrt or adding commuter vs. improving bus. More people are helped by bus despite the extreme negligence of CATS. The GOP legislature doesn't seem to hate bus either for some reason? Maybe because it still uses carbon in many cases? :⁠-⁠(

I'd love to see these columns combined into this data:  "maint expenses", "labor expense", "# stops late by over 2 minutes", "Capital cost ", " debt servicing cost". Does any of that data get published somewhere? 

[kermit]

Something appears to be afoot at the MTC and disruptive efforts to determine who actually controls CATS are underway.

https://x.com/ESPortillo/status/1706684063916916817?s=20

I can't imagine why a stakeholder group might be concerned about how CATS is being operated.

Honestly, after watching Brent Cagel fail to clean much up, I am fully supportive of doing a Coach Prime transfer portal purge strategy on CATS.

(why do embed links only work about 25% of the time?)

Edit: longer format story on this from WFAE: https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-09-26/not-a-rubber-stamp-mecklenburg-towns-and-county-demand-transit-changes-from-charlotte

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by kermit

[Windsurfer]

Too bad we can't declare railroads integral to our defense, as Eisenhower did for interstate highways., and just allocate funding from our endless Defense budget. https://us.yahoo.com/news/official-russia-starts-building-railway-081311418.html

[tozmervo]

20 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Added July data to the March data posted in the past. Still seeing some healthy clawing-back of ridership, but still trailing far behind other systems. As repeated ad naseum, I agree that failure to staff and restore pre-pandemic schedules has really hurt the recovery in ridership. 

Case in point: my 77x just had to leave about 10 people at a park and ride because they can't have standing passengers on the interstate. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by tozmervo

[davidclt]

41 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Case in point: my 77x just had to leave about 10 people at a park and ride because they can't have standing passengers on the interstate. 

All of the northern express buses need to run 15 minutes headways all day long and 20 minutes in the evening. No local bus line should run at less than 10 minutes head ways 6:30 a.m. - 8 p.m. We can't afford not to build an amazing system.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Quote

CHARLOTTE — Who should govern the Charlotte Area Transit System? Seven elected leaders say the Metropolitan Transit Commission, not the Charlotte City Council. Mecklenburg County Commissioner Leigh Altman, an MTC member, sent a letter to Mayor Vi Lyles Tuesday calling for changes in the interlocal agreement that formed the MTC. It was signed by the six mayors of Mecklenburg County’s towns, who also serve on the MTC. The topic is expected to be discussed at the MTC meeting Wednesday night.

“The MTC was formed to ensure that the county and towns would have a say in how that money was spent, as well as to ensure CATS was operated in a safe, efficient, and effective manner,” the letter stated. “Over the past year, it has become increasingly clear that the parties’ original agreement did not provide the MTC sufficient authority to direct and oversee CATS’s operations or to ensure its accountability to the taxpayers.”

The dispute goes back to last year’s light rail derailment. After that incident was disclosed many months later, the MTC voted for an independent investigation of CATS. The Charlotte City Council refused and instead opted for a federal review.

Davidson Mayor Rusty Knox says that the incident was the tipping point.

“I believe that’s what started it all. That’s where the acknowledgment of the fact we felt we were more than a policy board came to light,” he said.

The MTC’s interlocal agreement is set to expire in June 2024 but it can be extended.

The letter from the seven elected leaders asks for several amendments:

• Clarify that the governance of CATS rests with the MTC, as the body that represents the interests of all the local governments that contribute to the system.
• Ensure participation of the MTC and its members in the selection and evaluation of the CATS CEO.
• Revise the CATS budget process to ensure the MTC’s early involvement in the development of CATS’s operating and capital budgets each year before it is recommended to the city council.
• Provide mechanisms for resolving differences between the MTC and the city council regarding the recommended budget for CATS.

“We don’t want anything other than our voices to be heard on a more equitable basis,” Knox said.

Altman says the changes are important for restoring trust in the system.

“This is the public’s money. This is a public transit service, and the public deserves and is entitled to transparency and accountability,” she said. “When you have a rash of very serious problems, like we had last March, and the MTC wanted an independent third-party investigation, the public was entitled to that. And we didn’t get it.”

In a statement, Lyles said she is reviewing the proposed amendments.

Statement from Mayor Vi Lyles:

“We are reviewing the proposed amendments provided today by some members of the MTC regarding the future of public transit governance in our county. As I have previously stated publicly, there are two principles that we have broad agreement on. One is the need to update the interlocal agreement and the second is that a regional transit authority is in our future. I am in general agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in the letter that I received today from the town mayors and county MTC delegate. The proposed amendments to the interlocal agreement give us an opportunity to have open discussions and continued dialogue. We remain committed to addressing the concerns of our regional partners as we work toward our common goal of building a comprehensive transit system to enhance mobility and economic opportunity for all residents across our region. This spirit of cooperation to reach the best solutions is what is expected of us as public officials.”

 

[elrodvt]

Thanks for posting that statement.

Do people here think this will just add more politics and inaction? 

[kermit]

^ I honestly don't think "more inaction" on transit in Charlotte is possible. We are at rock bottom.

[kayman]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:57 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

How do you (and anyone else) feel about red line being commuter rail? 

Im not big on commuter rail in the ways the Red Line has been presented. The most successful commuter rails seem to operate as a “rapid transit system” with 30 minute or less frequencies (and typically even less for the inner portion as lines mostly overlap). But I’d loveee if the region doubled down in the corridor and really refreshed the vision for the red line!

I’m thinking Denver’s Airport heavy rail, DC’s MARC Penn Line, etc. A lot of systems are actually converting lines to electric and making upgrades to their commuter rails (including changing some signage from commuter rail to “Regional Rail”) to be even more rapid similar to RER in Paris. 

I think the most likely scenario for Charlotte may be something similar to VRE in DC, Nashville or Austin’s rail. Austin at least has some weekend service. I just think Charlotte’s red line would be M-F, trains into the city the morning, trains out in the evening. I think the corridor indisputably could handle more service, I just have a hard time seeing that panning out based on regional leadership (though maybe if NC outright owned the tracks and electrified it, maybe it wouldn’t be a stretch?)

Something interesting to watch as a model for the red line IMO will be Salt Lakes Front Runner. They’re in the process of expanding and double tracking. From Wikipedia:

“In 2021, Utah passed legislation to fund a project to double track FrontRunner at strategic locations.^[35]The double tracking would allow for the system to increase maximum frequency from 30 minutes to 15,^[36] and potentially add express trains with limited stops.^[37] In May 2023, UTA officials said construction on the next phase of double tracking would begin in 2025 and be completed by 2029.”

Now that would be *amazing* if the Red Line had 15/30 minute bi-directional frequencies.  And purely opinion, I’d really geek out if the red line had Trains similar to Denver’s commuter trains:

Red Line conceptual designs so far (which the train people here can correct anything I said because I’m dumb with trains) gives M-F vibes for sure and doesn’t seem capable of high frequency due to no electrification or something. 

Denver Airport line is light rail not heavy rail. 

[elrodvt]

↑are you sure of that? I've ridden and lived there when it was being built and I could've sworn they called it something other than LRT ? It felt different too.

That said, I don't know the exact definitions personally.

[15895]

9 minutes ago, kayman said:

Denver Airport line is light rail not heavy rail. 

It’s Heavy /Commuter Rail. 

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

Thanks for posting that statement.

Do people here think this will just add more politics and inaction? 

I think it’ll dramatically change course for CATS in a positive way. Based on the post, it seems like a sound form of governance that will focus on CATS, it’s performance & future. Even if CATS weren’t performing dismally, this would still IMO be a solid decision.  I think it’s great if it goes through and starts an important conversation. 
 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, kayman said:

Denver Airport line is light rail not heavy rail. 

yea, I am not sure about that. The A, B, G and N lines use traditional heavy rail equipment, on traditional heavy rail tracks, operate tracks occasionally used by freight  (Union Station throat) and are regulated by the FRA rather than the FTA.

[kayman]

22 hours ago, kermit said:

Something appears to be afoot at the MTC and disruptive efforts to determine who actually controls CATS are underway.

https://x.com/ESPortillo/status/1706684063916916817?s=20

I can't imagine why a stakeholder group might be concerned about how CATS is being operated.

Honestly, after watching Brent Cagel fail to clean much up, I am fully supportive of doing a Coach Prime transfer portal purge strategy on CATS.

(why do embed links only work about 25% of the time?)

Edit: longer format story on this from WFAE: https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-09-26/not-a-rubber-stamp-mecklenburg-towns-and-county-demand-transit-changes-from-charlotte

 

I've been explaining to you all that since jump that the City of Charlotte CoC controlling CATS as a de facto city department would blow up in their face sooner than later. CATS should have been operated by an independent regional transit authority since 2008 to mitigate and as a proactively move to operate the LYNX Rapid Transit Services division of regional transit infrastructure. No practical person thought the CoC running things with a politically insular city manager (management) as the final say of hiring and firing the CATS CEO was a wise move.

Also the organizational chart shows the MTC has equal footing with the CoC City Manager to hire/fire the CATS CEO because Mecklenburg County and the 6 other municipalities are fiduciary co-partners of the countywide Mecklenburg County transit sales tax that is collected and daily managed by the Mecklenburg County Tax Assessors office. If they are partners on funding then it makes sense for all 6 municipalities & Mecklenburg County ought to lead the oversight and policy body equally with the CoC not just the CoC only over daily oversight alone with no regard for others for operational transparency.  It's why this independent regional transit authority idea should have happened a long-time ago.  

I've been traveling a lot lately and Charlotte is the only major metropolitan area that tries to hyperlocalize our metropolitan area-wide infrastructure.  Charlotte Water as joint entity works, Charlotte-Douglas International Airport as a city-owned entity works,  Charlotte-Mecklenburg Stormwater as a joint entity works, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools as a city-county combined school district works, but CATS shouldn't be controlled by the City of Charlotte, period. There's a 50-50 split for operations (50% non-federal either through state support, hybrid state/local support or all locally funded support & 50% federal funding) so this has to be equitably done for all jurisdictions involved in the local funding. 

As a bonus, neither should Charlotte Regional Transportation Planning Organization (CRTPO), the Charlotte urban area metropolitan planning organization (MPO) shouldn't be housed in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Planning Department that d/b/a as the Charlotte Planning, Design, and Development Department. That should also be housed at the Centralina Regional Council, the regional council of governments (regional planning, economic development, agency on aging, & lead agency on the Connect Beyond bi-state regional mobility and transit study). The Durham-Chapel Hill Carrboro MPO recently moved their host entity from the City of Durham to the Triangle J Council of Governments now known as the Central Pines Regional Council back in this past July (2023).

Charlotte is going to have to embrace regionalism when it comes to transit and transportation planning.

Edited September 27, 2023 by kayman

[kayman]

34 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

It’s Heavy /Commuter Rail. 

I think it’ll dramatically change course for CATS in a positive way. Based on the post, it seems like a sound form of governance that will focus on CATS, it’s performance & future. Even if CATS weren’t performing dismally, this would still IMO be a solid decision.  I think it’s great if it goes through and starts an important conversation. 
 

 

 

https://www.rtd-denver.com/sites/default/files/files/2019-04/East_Rail_CU_A_Line_Fact_Sheet_2016_FINAL.pdf

No it's not. It's light rail that operates as commuter. The technology is overhead catanary powered lines in lieu of a trunk third rail. It could be considered medium or light rapid rail but the at-grade crossings along the A-Line causes to be classified as light rail/regional commuter rail but not heavy rail/rapid rail.  I know my transportation mode technologies. 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by kayman

[15895]

10 minutes ago, kayman said:

https://www.rtd-denver.com/sites/default/files/files/2019-04/East_Rail_CU_A_Line_Fact_Sheet_2016_FINAL.pdf

No it's not. It's light rail that operates as commuter. The technology is overhead catanary powered lines in lieu of a trunk third rail. It could be considered medium or light rapid rail but the at-grade crossings along the A-Line causes to be classified as light rail/regional commuter rail but not heavy rail/rapid rail.  I know my transportation.

 

I have no doubt you know way more than me on transportation. In any event, a commuter rail light rail with the frequency of Lynx Light Rail and differentiated vehicles and service from the other light rail lines in Denver (outside of the 4 that are commuter) 

Edited September 27, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD