CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Nathan2]

18 hours ago, nicholas said:

Look how narrow it is along most of N Graham St, up along Derita Ave, through Huntersville and Cornelius and Davidson, etc.  As someone who isn't a railroad nerd I'd be curious to know if it would be possible to double track through those areas as they are now, and still meet the necessary minimum setbacks.  If not then I mean yeah it's still possible but from my perspective would seem astronomically expensive and very destructive through established areas.

They have a decent amount of room but double tracking is not necessary the entire length. You can have a decent frequency, probably up to 15 minutes, using a single track through the downtowns as long as there are sections where you add double tracking for trains to pass. There are plenty of examples out there of good lines that exist entirely of single track, with the stations as the only spot for trains to pass. 

[Third Strike]

2 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

They have a decent amount of room but double tracking is not necessary the entire length. You can have a decent frequency, probably up to 15 minutes, using a single track through the downtowns as long as there are sections where you add double tracking for trains to pass. There are plenty of examples out there of good lines that exist entirely of single track, with the stations as the only spot for trains to pass. 

Spot on. I used to live at the terminus of the Pascack Valley Line, which runs from Hoboken, NJ to Spring Valley, NY. The line is mostly single track, except for some areas where it double tracks for train passing. The line is also about 30 miles, which is only about five more miles in length than the Red Line. There were times when the train would have to stop on these sidings for another train to pass, but the PV Line also runs trains in both directions every hour or so, which would be significantly more than the frequencies the Red Line would have, at least in the beginning. 

[Professor]

If we get the red line, I wonder if it will be available for passengers before stations (sheds or whatever) are available. In other words, will temporary passenger waiting (board and unboarding) areas be used initially. I'm not getting any younger, therefore, I wonder how long it will be before I can start planning my pub hop tours by rail to uptown from the lake?   

[southslider]

Always thought Graham St could use a road-diet for sidewalks, but double-tracking Red Line sure would be a nice bonus.

[tozmervo]

Today's Ledger Transit Time focuses on something that's been a major concern of mine for years. For all the hemming and hawing about adding a commuter rail up the corridor, our BRT "lite" system is just faster, no matter how you cut it. If it became full BRT (and a much lower cost), a commuter line would never be competitive.

https://open.substack.com/pub/charlotteledger/p/a-new-red-line-would-be-slower-than?r=1yh1m&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

[videtur quam contuor]

Does BRT run in toll lane when available?

[CLT2014]

26 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Does BRT run in toll lane when available?

Yes it does allowing the bus to go full speed. It is only 28 minutes from the Cornelius Park and Ride to the corner of Church / Trade. Add 6 minutes if you work more in the government offices to the 3rd/McDowell intersection. 

[kayman]

4 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Today's Ledger Transit Time focuses on something that's been a major concern of mine for years. For all the hemming and hawing about adding a commuter rail up the corridor, our BRT "lite" system is just faster, no matter how you cut it. If it became full BRT (and a much lower cost), a commuter line would never be competitive.

https://open.substack.com/pub/charlotteledger/p/a-new-red-line-would-be-slower-than?r=1yh1m&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

The elected officials of Northern Mecklenburg County towns and their gripes along with attempts to win political buy-in from them for the transit sales tax referendum for expansion are why this is the exercise is going on. 

I-77 North BRT full rollout is on the books, but implementation is being held up due to the lack funding (tied to the transit sales tax referendum)

[TCLT]

8 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Today's Ledger Transit Time focuses on something that's been a major concern of mine for years. For all the hemming and hawing about adding a commuter rail up the corridor, our BRT "lite" system is just faster, no matter how you cut it. If it became full BRT (and a much lower cost), a commuter line would never be competitive.

https://open.substack.com/pub/charlotteledger/p/a-new-red-line-would-be-slower-than?r=1yh1m&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Steve Harrison is oddly antagonistic towards CATS and his articles have been very critical of transit in Charlotte writ large and I'm not sure why. In this case he wrote a treatise on trip times but never once mentioned capacity...

[southslider]

8 hours ago, kayman said:

 I-77 North BRT full rollout is on the books, but implementation is being held up due to the lack funding (tied to the transit sales tax referendum)

Except BRT doesn't require one big project, but can be built up with smaller projects, especially now that the Express Lanes are already built. The real missed opportunities are Exit 23 currently under construction and Exit 25 soon also in construction. Pull-off, in-line BRT stations are in the cost range of the planned Hambright Park and Ride, which is already funded without any sales tax increase.

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile this Tuesday up in Raleigh first of their 4 BRT lines gets underway and will open in approximately 2 years.

 

[tozmervo]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:02 PM, tozmervo said:

 

Added July data to the March data posted in the past. Still seeing some healthy clawing-back of ridership, but still trailing far behind other systems. As repeated ad naseum, I agree that failure to staff and restore pre-pandemic schedules has really hurt the recovery in ridership. 

Added September numbers. Gold line dipped vs. 2022, the report attributes to missed trips and adjustment to 20 minute headways. *insert surprised pikachu*

I also broke out a subset of north 77 express routes given all the red line discussion. Anecdotally, those busses are packed on T, W, and Th. Monday has been bouncing back significantly the past couple of months. Friday is a ghost town (and also the only day I regularly drive myself, because there's no commute traffic.) 

[kermit]

FWIW: I just did a quick dive into Indianapolis Red Line stats and a look at satellite images of the route dated 2023 on Google. I found:

• Ridership was originally estimated to be 11,000 per day, it is currently about 3,000 (covid, yada yada)
• My google maps skim of the full route showed just four lots under construction (skimmed the two blocks on either side of the route. I did not include a new highway interchange under construction in this count)
• The electric buses have been problematic and heavier than the road work was designed for. The route is now undergoing a $5 million reconstruction to replace pavement torn up by the heavier buses
• Lots of grumbling about the service being useless, take this with a grain of salt since the internet is a machine built to attract cranks

I am not here trying to say that all BRT sucks. However, most US experience with BRT shows it to be underwhelming in terms of ridership, not as cheap as initially suggested and it fails to create any tangible land use change (this is the biggest issue for me, they do essentially nothing to help densify cities the way that rail clearly does). I'll be interested to see what happens in Raleigh. (I have not looked at the lines in Albuquerque or Eugene yet, perhaps they are the exception)

Edited November 7, 2023 by kermit

[davidclt]

36 minutes ago, kermit said:

FWIW: I just did a quick dive into Indianapolis Red Line stats and a look at satellite images of the route dated 2023 on Google. I found:

• Ridership was originally estimated to be 11,000 per day, it is currently about 3,000 (covid, yada yada)
• My google maps skim of the full route showed just four lots under construction (skimmed the two blocks on either side of the route. I did not include a new highway interchange under construction in this count)
• The electric buses have been problematic and heavier than the road work was designed for. The route is now undergoing a $5 million reconstruction to replace pavement torn up by the heavier buses
• Lots of grumbling about the service being useless, take this with a grain of salt since the internet is a machine built to attract cranks

I am not here trying to say that all BRT sucks. However, most US experience with BRT shows it to be underwhelming in terms of ridership, not as cheap as initially suggested and it fails to create any tangible land use change. I'll be interested to see what happens in Raleigh. (I have not looked at the lines in Albuquerque or Eugene yet, perhaps they are the exception)

Wasn't the Sprinter supposed to be "BRT"? Regardless, I've not used it because CATS as CATSed it up. 30 minutes headways, not thanks. The 23 minutes trip time to CTC isn't all bad though, compared to 17 minutes by car.

According to this, it was: The Charlotte Sprinter: Cost Effective BRT | Metro Jacksonville

[kermit]

32 minutes ago, davidclt said:

Wasn't the Sprinter supposed to be "BRT"? Regardless, I've not used it because CATS as CATSed it up. 30 minutes headways, not thanks. The 23 minutes trip time to CTC isn't all bad though, compared to 17 minutes by car.

According to this, it was: The Charlotte Sprinter: Cost Effective BRT | Metro Jacksonville

Yea, they certainly used the BRT label back in the Ron Tober days. It does have a) shelters and b) wider stop spacing. But it does not have a) off board fare payment; b) level boarding; c) dedicated lanes; d) signal priority; e) higher frequency. Looks like a normal bus route with a few shelters to me.

Edited November 7, 2023 by kermit

[tozmervo]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

I am not here trying to say that all BRT sucks. However, most US experience with BRT shows it to be underwhelming in terms of ridership, not as cheap as initially suggested and it fails to create any tangible land use change (this is the biggest issue for me, they do essentially nothing to help densify cities the way that rail clearly does). I'll be interested to see what happens in Raleigh. (I have not looked at the lines in Albuquerque or Eugene yet, perhaps they are the exception)

So apparently there's actually a ranking system for BRT. Albuquerque, Cleveland, and Hartford all have Silver or Gold rankings, and all appear to do well (though I don't know their initial projections). Eugene is on here as a "bronze" system. Indianapolis doesn't appear to have a ranking (yet).

BRT Standard - Wikipedia

[videtur quam contuor]

You are posting on your bus. The best UP posting.

[KJHburg]

Well BRT is under construction on the New Bern Ave line east of Raleigh opening in mid 2025.  

'Game changer:' Work begins on NC's first rapid bus line in Raleigh (wral.com)

as for land use I am pretty sure Raleigh is zoning land along the line for more intensive uses and higher density.  The same can be done in Charlotte.  10 min peak frequencies.  For Charlotte to not be looking at BRT is just wrong.  

 

look at El Paso's extensive system now 4 lines.  Our trains don't even run that frequently.   Monday to Friday all day long 15 min frequencies.  

Sun Metro | Brio (sunmetrobrio.net)

[Desert Power]

12 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Added September numbers. Gold line dipped vs. 2022, the report attributes to missed trips and adjustment to 20 minute headways. *insert surprised pikachu*

I also broke out a subset of north 77 express routes given all the red line discussion. Anecdotally, those busses are packed on T, W, and Th. Monday has been bouncing back significantly the past couple of months. Friday is a ghost town (and also the only day I regularly drive myself, because there's no commute traffic.) 

What are the circulators in Charlotte?

[tozmervo]

Just now, Desert Power said:

What are the circulators in Charlotte?

The north meck village riders and all the 200-series routes that aren't spoke or crosstown routes, like the 211 Hidden Valley. 

[kermit]

Philadelphia is now using cameras on public transit vehicles to enforce parking and bus lane violations. This should have been on the Gold Line at open!

https://iseptaphilly.com/blog/parkingenforcement

[kermit]

Steve Harrison is out with his bi-monthly transit criticism piece in the Ledger. While he does a good job of summarizing ridership statistics (the the post-covid ridership decline), he never once mentions that declines in frequency and reliability are the likely cause of the bulk of that ridership loss. (he alludes to 30 minute frequencies on the Gold Line as being a problem but does not actually say it). Nor does he mention that transit ridership recovered much more substantially in cities that have kept frequencies and reliability high. The tone of this piece is very much "transit is doomed as a mode" when the real story is CATS is doing s crapty job of managing a critical public utility.

https://open.substack.com/pub/charlotteledger/p/the-pandemic-has-long-been-over-how

EDIT: just saw this on the twit box (can't believe I am still there)

https://x.com/andyo301/status/1724908484339421208?s=20https://x.com/andyo301/status/1724908484339421208?s=20

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

Was in DC recently and rather enjoyed the sub-10 minute frequencies on the Metro.

it's a real no brainer that you have to actually run the trains if you expect people to use them. 20 minutes, let alone 30 minutes is just a sad joke.

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Was in DC recently and rather enjoyed the sub-10 minute frequencies on the Metro.

it's a real no brainer that you have to actually run the trains if you expect people to use them. 20 minutes, let alone 30 minutes is just a sad joke.

 I noticed that when the trains run so closely like this in London that sometimes they actually leapfrog each other.  It's amazing some don't collide or run into the back of another.  All it takes is one slow passenger to tie up the train a couple of minutes. Or, as in the case of Charlotte's, someone walking across the rail at the wrong time.

[DMann]

Gee, No one is referring to the LYNX as the Choo-Choo anymore.  Wonder why.