CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[ajfunder]

Is there any timeline for CATS fixing the Blue Line and Gold Line headway issue? Cities who have returned to full schedules have seen a lot of solid ridership come back. 

[15895]

10 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Is there any timeline for CATS fixing the Blue Line and Gold Line headway issue? Cities who have returned to full schedules have seen a lot of solid ridership come back. 

No. I don’t even think the blue line is considered an issue? 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

This is the I-73/I-74 connection and interchange in Rockingham.   Won't really do anything for the Wilmington bound traffic from Greensboro but elminates a bottleneck for those coming from the Triad.  Now if we can get the Wadesboro bypass underway that would really help eastbound traffic from Charlotte.   this is going westbound on 74.  

Edited November 19, 2023 by KJHburg

[ajfunder]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:34 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

No. I don’t even think the blue line is considered an issue? 

 

Is the Blue Line running every 8 minutes like it used to at peak? Otherwise, it still has an issue.  Ideally it would run at least every 10-15 minimum all day. 20 and 30 minute headways are unacceptable long-term.

[15895]

1 hour ago, ajfunder said:

Is the Blue Line running every 8 minutes like it used to at peak? Otherwise, it still has an issue.  Ideally it would run at least every 10-15 minimum all day. 20 and 30 minute headways are unacceptable long-term.

I’m not saying it’s not an issue, I’m saying If there’s no timeline, if theres no statements from officials, if there are no blurbs in the final monthly MTC agenda and they’re focused on on-time performance, it’s hard to think the frequencies are an that big of an issue to the powers-that-be. 

It seems to me like the measures they’re using (on-time performance) show improvement in CATS [and that they’re not actual riders. On-time performance matters but from a riders perspective, slashing frequency or keeping it low to achieve higher on-time performance isn’t a great trade off. I rather have unreliable rapid service than reliable reduced service.]

The below is the Final MTC agenda for November 2023. 

https://www.charlottenc.gov/files/sharedassets/cats/v/1/cats-docs/final-mtc-agenda-packet-for-wednesday-november-15-2023.pdf

I haven’t seen anything, timelines, etc so. I just don’t think it’s anything urgent to the city or agency.

Edited November 20, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[ajfunder]

4 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’m not saying it’s not an issue, I’m saying If there’s no timeline, if theres no statements from officials, if there are no blurbs in the final monthly MTC agenda and they’re focused on on-time performance, it’s hard to think the frequencies are an that big of an issue to the powers-that-be. 

It seems to me like the measures they’re using (on-time performance) show improvement in CATS [and that they’re not actual riders. On-time performance matters but from a riders perspective, slashing frequency or keeping it low to achieve higher on-time performance isn’t a great trade off. I rather have unreliable rapid service than reliable reduced service.]

The below is the Final MTC agenda for November 2023. 

https://www.charlottenc.gov/files/sharedassets/cats/v/1/cats-docs/final-mtc-agenda-packet-for-wednesday-november-15-2023.pdf

I haven’t seen anything, timelines, etc so. I just don’t think it’s anything urgent to the city or agency.

And I think that is my main point, the fact there isn’t an urgency to restore service shows complacency which is concerning.  Just like the greater issues surrounding CATS, it shows a lack of leadership. 
 

If CATS can’t expand for broader state political reasons, it needs to focus on making the system it has run more effectively. It just feels like it is going through the motions and providing mediocre transit without trying to be better. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by ajfunder

[kermit]

The federal govt has agreed to make up to $35 billion in subsidized TIFIA and RRIF loans (around 5%) available for multifamily construction within a half mile of mass transit stations.  This is in addition to the funds made available to subsidize office to residential conversions.

If only Charlotte had our second light rail line underway…

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-offering-loans-housing-shortage-real-estate-building-downtown-apartments-2023-11

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:44 PM, KJHburg said:

This is the I-73/I-74 connection and interchange in Rockingham.   Won't really do anything for the Wilmington bound traffic from Greensboro but elminates a bottleneck for those coming from the Triad.  Now if we can get the Wadesboro bypass underway that would really help eastbound traffic from Charlotte.   this is going westbound on 74.  

The most typical NCDOT BS that Charlotte to Wilmington has be so deprioritized over the years. Kinston, Goldsboro and New Bern always pull so much more from the state government than they produce. Its unbelievable. 

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The most typical NCDOT BS that Charlotte to Wilmington has be so deprioritized over the years. Kinston, Goldsboro and New Bern always pull so much more from the state government than they produce. Its unbelievable. 

I think this one had more to do with Myrtle Beach making it easier for Ohioans to reach them.  What a waste. Actually runs parallel to I-77 in places in WVA.

FWIW, habitat fragmentation is the number one cause for species extinction. 

[nicholas]

12 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

Actually runs parallel to I-77 in places in WVA.

Where does it do that? I thought NC was the only state that had built any of I-74 (other than the existing route heading west out of Cincinnati) and assumed I-74 would follow I-77 northward through Virginia and into WV until it reached I-64 in Charleston?

[Windsurfer]

12 hours ago, nicholas said:

Where does it do that? I thought NC was the only state that had built any of I-74 (other than the existing route heading west out of Cincinnati) and assumed I-74 would follow I-77 northward through Virginia and into WV until it reached I-64 in Charleston?

Okay, roughly speaking. Perhaps they've adjusted it, but still, this interstate seems so redundant to me overall.  http://www.i73.com/Map/default.html

[rancenc]

Maybe we will see a marked improvement in bus service beginning next year.

https://www.wbtv.com/2023/11/27/charlotte-city-council-expected-vote-contract-new-cats-bus-operating-company/

[Reverie39]

17 hours ago, rancenc said:

Maybe we will see a marked improvement in bus service beginning next year.

https://www.wbtv.com/2023/11/27/charlotte-city-council-expected-vote-contract-new-cats-bus-operating-company/

Change is most likely good in this case. Do we know how well this company has fared in those other cities it operates in like Greensboro and Durham?

[kermit]

On 11/28/2023 at 11:10 AM, Reverie39 said:

Change is most likely good in this case. Do we know how well this company has fared in those other cities it operates in like Greensboro and Durham?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Old Boss = RATP, a massive French transit operations company

New Boss = National Express, a massive UK transit operations company

FWIW: RATP has a much better reputation in their home country than National Express does in theirs. Of course their North American subsidiaries are largely peripheral to their core revenue streams. Basically just expect more bureaucratic management with little sensitivity to local conditions.

Edited December 26, 2023 by kermit

[RANYC]

8 minutes ago, kermit said:

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Old Boss = RTAP, a massive French transit operations company

New Boss = National Express, a massive UK transit operations company

FWIW: RTAP has a much better reputation in their home country than National Express does in theirs. Of course their North American subsidiaries are largely peripheral to their core revenue streams. Basically just expect more bureaucratic management with little sensitivity to local conditions.

Bingo.  By the way, it would appear RATP didn’t even want to bid on working with us again.   Bad outcomes were likely a result of “our” mismanagement of the RATP relationship, among other factors.  If we do see improvements, it’s probably as much to do with an improvement in third-party management on our end as it is with a change in vendor.

[KJHburg]

another city expanding its Bus Rapid Transit and their ridership is up to prepandemic levels.   From Richmond

Richmond releases alignment of second Pulse bus rapid transit route – Greater Greater Washington (ggwash.org)

[davidclt]

We should retitle this thread CATS Cares - because clearly they do.

Still they are soliciting feedback about their bus shelters: Bus Shelter Design Survey - PublicInput (I commented that EVERY stops should have shelter and pavement)

[Hushpuppy321]

Raleigh BRT first segment is planned along New Bern Ave at 5.4 miles for $97 Million in dedicated bus lanes.  Do you all believe it’s time for CATS/Charlotte/MTC to go all in on BRT?  I do prefer fixed (light) rail but it seems that’s very much a funding long shot with ballooning costs and No NCGA support.  Look - NCGA are even allowing Articulated Buses for GoRaleigh BRT

Edited December 26, 2023 by Hushpuppy321

[kermit]

15 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Raleigh BRT first segment is planned along New Bern Ave at 5.4 miles for $97 Million in dedicated bus lanes.  Do you all believe it’s time for CATS/Charlotte/MTC to go all in on BRT?  I do prefer fixed (light) rail but it seems that’s very much a funding long shot with ballooning costs and No NCGA support.  Look - NCGA are even allowing Articulated Buses for GoRaleigh BRT

IMO the city decided they were unwilling to sacrifice car lanes for BRT when it pulled the plug early on the Central ave bus lane trial. BRT without dedicated lanes is just a bus, and we all know how well buses have been working in Charlotte. 

I also have concerns about the ability of BRT to stimulate density and walkability, fortunately Raleigh will tell us that tale soon.

Edited December 26, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

49 minutes ago, kermit said:

IMO the city decided they were unwilling to sacrifice car lanes for BRT when it pulled the plug early on the Central ave bus lane trial. BRT without dedicated lanes is just a bus, and we all know how well buses have been working in Charlotte. 

I also have concerns about the ability of BRT to stimulate density and walkability, but Raleigh will tell us that tale soon.

The BRT trend gives me “Obama-era” streetcar vibes. 

It also seems the areas getting BRT are places that have less optimal transit & less state support for mass transit. Sort of like how Streetcars were pursued due to seeming that was the only transit that was viable to pursue from a funding standpoint.

Looking at Houston where they’re spending a ton on BRT, it looks like some portions are in the middle of giantttt roads. For me, I’m always a split between… no transit improvements vs. bad transit improvements. I’m still not sure which is better. Because bad transit seems to be future justification of less investment in the future.

Are there any good examples of BRT in the U.S.? 

[kermit]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:17 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Are there any good examples of BRT in the U.S.? 

This is a good question, and I don’t know the answer. The pattern I have seen w BRT projects in the US is: a) lots of fanfare and excitement when first opened; and the b) absolutely no discussion of performance or effectiveness after opening, they just seem to disappear from our consciousness. Its possible I missed these analyses, but I do a bunch of reading on transit effectiveness so its possible this analysis has not been done at all.

The only BRT lines I have personal experience with are:

• Richmond (VA) Pulse: Its short (just under 7 miles). Runs in separate lanes through downtown (but mixed traffic at either end). Ridership is reported as good, but service is much slower than planned and reliability has been reported to be poor (promised 10 minute all day service cut back to 30 minutes (or worse) nighttime frequency, ghost buses not uncommon).
• Cleveland Health Line: From my perspective the line has really disintegrated. Also a short route. Off board payment stopped. Some mixed traffic running. Dramatically downgraded frequencies. Ridership has been declining. IMO this is a classic example of what was originally a very good BRT route suffering death from 1000 cuts and morphing back into a normal bus route.
• I have looked at (but not ridden) the Indianapolis Red Line. No visible evidence of development along the route, Ridership is reported as well below expectations, construction was badly mismanaged (lots of repair work happening on the line that opened in2019), riders complain the BRT service is even slower than the original bus route it replaced (which, honestly sounds kinda impossible?), and frequency has been substantially downgraded.
• The LA G-Line (formerly Orange Line) is likely (by far) to be the most successful BRT in the US. Its success is instructive, it was built on an old Pacific Electric trolley line and it runs wholly separate from traffic (but it does have grade crossings of streets). Its stops are separated by about a mile, so it is fast amd rarely stuck in traffic. The line is at capacity, it cannot add more busses at rush hour due to that fudgeing up traffic on the cross streets. Given the capacity limitations, they are looking at converting the line to LRT (bigger vehicles ease the capacity crunch). They did not build the line as rail initially due to NIMBY opposition which is too bad since building rail off the bat would have saved a ton of money. IMO this line is the execution that proves the rule, BRT can be great where it runs in a completely separated ROW and is FAST.  The more a BRT line looks like a normal bus the less successful it tends to be (based on my very limited observations). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_Line_(Los_Angeles_Metro)

I would think that there are lots of other stories about BRT performance, but those stories are conspicuous in their absence from my usual sources. I agree with your sense of the effectiveness of these things, they get lots of attention when they open, but (from my perspective) service appears to decay quickly after opening. For all of the CATS’ Blue Line faults, it is at least providing the same basic service that it was promised to (other than frequency). That does not seem to be the case for the BRT systems I have experience with.

 

Edited January 3 by kermit

[DownEast]

Richmond's BRT has been very successful. One line going down Broad St from downtown through some historically dense hoods. It has spurred a decent amount of TOD as well. 

Damn. Beat me to it. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by DownEast
Tardiness

[Hushpuppy321]

Seems like development / growth along planned BRT & Streetcar Routes are an open question as well?  Not much here in Charlotte so I wonder how Raleigh will fare once their East and South BRT Routes come online.

[15895]

3 hours ago, DownEast said:

Richmond's BRT has been very successful. One line going down Broad St from downtown through some historically dense hoods. It has spurred a decent amount of TOD as well. 

Damn. Beat me to it. 

Nice analysis by Kermit indeed. 
 

The one thing about Richmond’s BRT is I don’t quite recall the fanfare of it being BRT. It seemed like an emphasis on the overall bus network, bus lane and optimizing the network to be overall frequent, simple and focus on stations and eyeing a new facility downtown. BRT seemed to me like, I dunno, just a part of an overall revamp whereas cities clamoring for federal dollars for  it that I’ve seen seem to be treating it like “build BRT and the rest will follow” similar to how LRT can encourage development, revitalize areas, etc. But I think BRT is only a piece of the puzzle. 
 

The GGWash actually has a lot of great articles about Richmond’s transit (for anyone interested in reading. There’s a ton of great analysis for those not interested in Richmond. I’m not interested in Richmond, but the articles have great discussions and links)

Future BRT discussions:

https://ggwash.org/view/91794/richmond-releases-alignment-of-second-pulse-bus-rapid-transit-route

High Level of the transformation (from Aug 2022)

https://ggwash.org/view/85856/richmond-has-made-monumental-progress-on-public-transit-we-must-keep-moving-forward
 

With this interesting bit about a transportation authority (which is very relevant to Charlotte as I know some here are big champions)

Finally, the establishment of the Central Virginia Transportation Authority in 2020 has created GRTC’s first dedicated revenue stream and established a regional body to foster cooperation amongst localities. 2022 could be the most exciting year for transit since the great redesign of 2018 with a historic 20% increase in bus service in the works. Plus, the city has painted the Pulse lanes red from 3rd Street to I-195, thanks in part to a state grant.

Theres a ton more of in-depth analysis (a ton that are recent) here with lots of sources to other articles  https://ggwash.org/search/908344757bc875e4ad97bb93cbca94a5

 

 

Also as DownEast notes, Richmond does have historically dense neighborhoods and the BRT essentially runs down the middle (pretty much Highway 250, which is a straight line.)

 

In the DC area, we have two BRT’s. I’m most familiar with MetroWay  (below) which is *slower* than sin despite having mostly dedicated bus lanes, grand shelters, etc. in Arlington. I’d call it a failure. Or at least not something to emulate. 
 

I think what makes it awful is that it isn’t a straight line. Partly due to highway 1 up north where it’s an elevated highway, and the turns, etc. Which is how I imagine it would be for Charlotte (having detours to hit higher densities of movement as opposed to staying mostly on one main road)

 

 

In DC, we have normal bus service that is more frequent (and 24 hour) routes. But they mostly go in straight lines. So I just get the feeling rapid bus works best in straight lines of dense areas. 
 

I don’t think Charlotte should pursue BRT in the way Houston or I guess Wake are. I mean, sure pursue it but I don’t think it’ll do much. Not in growth. Not in development. Not in improved transit much. I think just increases frequencies on certain bus routes are better uses of resources and I think the eye should be on LRT & we shouldn’t be pressed with Houston or Raleigh getting federal dollars. I’m just not sure it’s going to pan out. 
 

But. That’s my opinion on BRT. I think Charlotte isn’t missing out. And I don’t think it’d encourage much dev.  I think it’s a fad and the Silver Line in the form of LRT will be by far superior to BRT, as hard as it is to ignore the fanfare surrounding these grants. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Hushpuppy321]

On 11/21/2023 at 8:44 AM, kermit said:

The federal govt has agreed to make up to $35 billion in subsidized TIFIA and RRIF loans (around 5%) available for multifamily construction within a half mile of mass transit stations.  This is in addition to the funds made available to subsidize office to residential conversions.

If only Charlotte had our second light rail line underway…

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-offering-loans-housing-shortage-real-estate-building-downtown-apartments-2023-11

Great news (In general) but do you think\know if this applies to only Rail transit or would the Upcoming BRT Line in Wake County (East Alignment) or any BRT Line actually qualify?  If not specific - then literally any Bus Stop could be a 'Mass transit' Station.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Hushpuppy321