Inner Loop - CBD, Downtown, East Bank, Germantown, Gulch, Rutledge

[Guest]

I'm just wondering if anyone has really looked at the numbers on this. Aside from all the subterfuge, this is a property that someone in the Mayors office described as the most valuable piece of real estate in the south. 6+ acres, multiple metro built parking facilities, not a lease as first presented, $5m upfront? $5m in five years. Am I missing something? Someone please work up a schedule of values on this for us.

Business Journal has a good article that spells out some more.

http://m.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/real-estate/2015/03/metros-deal-for-convention-center-site-sweetheart.html?page=all&r=full

Definitely way lower than market, but it sounds to me like some of that is a deal because of the developers undertaking in improving it all, tearing that thing down, building the museum, charging no rent to the museum, and probably making the hotel lease issue go away.

[Guest]

Are they fixing the stair access to Church?

[UTgrad09]

Business Journal has a good article that spells out some more.

http://m.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/real-estate/2015/03/metros-deal-for-convention-center-site-sweetheart.html?page=all&r=full

Definitely way lower than market, but it sounds to me like some of that is a deal because of the developers undertaking in improving it all, tearing that thing down, building the museum, charging no rent to the museum, and probably making the hotel lease issue go away.

 

I definitely get that it's not going at market rate because of those reasons....but the price still seems low. There may not be a higher profile site that is actually available to developers in the entire city.

 

I also understand that in the long run, the revenues generated and jobs created will probably far outweigh any incentives given to the developers (and hotel). That doesn't mean that the city didn't sell itself short. My guess is they wanted to make this happen now, not later.

[Guest]

I definitely get that it's not going at market rate because of those reasons....but the price still seems low. There may not be a higher profile site that is actually available to developers in the entire city.

I also understand that in the long run, the revenues generated and jobs created will probably far outweigh any incentives given to the developers (and hotel). That doesn't mean that the city didn't sell itself short. My guess is they wanted to make this happen now, not later.

I think you are right. I also believe in the long view what's a couple million really? If this gets this project done the downtown and all of Nashville will be much better for it. It will generate other development and provide a catalyst for other projects because of all that retail.

[volsfanwill]

well, overall I like the new design better, but, I did like the super pointy end of the old rendering

[rookzie]

Are they fixing the stair access to Church?

 

They've added an amendment to funding.  They actually are building yet a so-called "fly-zone" bikeway that will serve as the "north-bridge" complement to Mayor Dean's and Councilwoman Gilmore's "south-bridge" over the railway gulch plane.

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[NOT really!!!  but don't put that past Eleven-North's dreams, though!]

[DoermanPhoto]

Is 11th going to remain 2 lanes :-( :-( :-(

 

It really, really needs to be 4.

[nvestnbna]

I think you are right. I also believe in the long view what's a couple million really? If this gets this project done the downtown and all of Nashville will be much better for it. It will generate other development and provide a catalyst for other projects because of all that retail.

I think one of the problems I have is that the original RFP was for "leasing" the property and now without "re-proposing" they sell at a price that is not a couple of million but more on the order of tens of millions short. There is a property on a side street in SoBro that as listed above sold for almost $5m an acre, without the city building them, if the NBJ article is correct, a parking garage that cost $34k/space to build($30m+). I just wonder how the, I think, five other bidders on the original contract feel about the drastically different parameters. Whatever goes there is going to generate sales taxes lots of taxes, and bring people into town, so that shouldn't be the rationale for this "all aboard" mentality. As far as the African Museum, I believe the offer was to "finance" the construction of it, that is quite a bit different than building and giving it to them.

Edited April 2, 2015 by nvestnbna

[rookzie]

Is 11th going to remain 2 lanes :-( :-( :-(

 

It really, really needs to be 4.

 

Eleventh, never will regain four-lane status, as it boasted during the pre-redevelopment period of the early 2000s.  They have to allow on-street parking at the expense of the thoroughfare.  Eleventh therefore no longer will afford the pace of "express", uninterrupted movement that it once did between Charlotte and Division.  Standard indifferent sentiment among city [non-]planners, for removing the only real bypass motorists once had to skirt DT north and south.  Nothing changed ─ nothing will change in that regard.

-==-

[Bezoar]

Is 11th going to remain 2 lanes :-( :-( :-(

 

It really, really needs to be 4.

 I don't know, I've driven through here while it's been down to 2 lanes during rush hour frequently, and it's been fine.  Though, now that they're detouring through 12th for construction it's kind of a nightmare.  It will be 1000x better for the bicycle commuter once it's all done, though.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Bezoar

[Guest]

Is 11th going to remain 2 lanes :-( :-( :-(

It really, really needs to be 4.

Why? Because of 5:00pm? I'd rather it felt more intimate and pedestrian.

[Guest]

I think one of the problems I have is that the original RFP was for "leasing" the property and now without "re-proposing" they sell at a price that is not a couple of million but more on the order of tens of millions short. There is a property on a side street in SoBro that as listed above sold for almost $5m an acre, without the city building them, if the NBJ article is correct, a parking garage that cost $34k/space to build($30m+). I just wonder how the, I think, five other bidders on the original contract feel about the drastically different parameters. Whatever goes there is going to generate sales taxes lots of taxes, and bring people into town, so that shouldn't be the rationale for this "all aboard" mentality. As far as the African Museum, I believe the offer was to "finance" the construction of it, that is quite a bit different that building and giving it to them.

In a development deal the $34K a space number is the all-in price including construction, land basis, design, development, financing, carry cost... Everything. Construction cost is probably in line with everywhere else in the city right now for underground parking-- 20-23K a space.

Just sounds like sour grapes to me honestly. I just think people are negative on the deal and want to find a reason to complain out it. This isn't even close to the kind of corporate welfare we saw go on at Bridgestone.

The deal that was cut for Giartanna at 5th and Church could be construed as far more sweetheart than this. People are going to complain no matter what and the ones I really don't want to hear from are the unsuccessful entities that proposed on this project. They have obvious ulterior motives and wouldn't exactly be the unbiased voice of "fair" in this case. Also, any group that would have gone down this development path would have run into the same obstacles and roadblocks as this team.

It seems every project is getting some sort of help or TIFF nowadays. It isn't a Nashville trend, it is any everywhere trend. Without unilateral disarmament of government subsidy it isn't going away any time soon. I just don't find this unusual or really all that objectionable when the whole picture is spelled out.

[DoermanPhoto]

Why? Because of 5:00pm? I'd rather it felt more intimate and pedestrian.

 

No, because of growth. Even at 5:00 it's not bad. But, 11th is currently the only road that can circumvent going from Charlotte/"North" Side to the 8th S/12th S area without having to hit every major light (church, broadway, demonbreun). Once more people figure this out, it will be slammed with traffic. Having 11th four lanes will allow people not to hit these major intersections.

Edited April 2, 2015 by DoermanPhoto

[PruneTracy]

But, 11th is currently the only road that can circumvent going from Charlotte/"North" Side to the 8th S/12th S area without having to hit every major light (church, broadway, demonbreun). Once more people figure this out, it will be slammed with traffic.

 

From a traffic engineering perspective, simply not having intersections with significant crossing volume increases the capacity of a two-lane road substantially. TDOT most recently (2013) shows an AADT of about 7,800 vehicles per day on 11th Avenue, down from 10,000–13,000 in the early 2000s and up to 14,000 vehicles per day in the late 1980s with the old configuration of the 11th/12th intersection. I would think that even with two travel lanes 11th Avenue could handle those previous volumes, though this might run counter to the "Complete Streets" philosophy that's driving the current construction.

[nvestnbna]

In a development deal the $34K a space number is the all-in price including construction, land basis, design, development, financing, carry cost... Everything. Construction cost is probably in line with everywhere else in the city right now for underground parking-- 20-23K a space.

Just sounds like sour grapes to me honestly. I just think people are negative on the deal and want to find a reason to complain out it. This isn't even close to the kind of corporate welfare we saw go on at Bridgestone.

The deal that was cut for Giartanna at 5th and Church could be construed as far more sweetheart than this. People are going to complain no matter what and the ones I really don't want to hear from are the unsuccessful entities that proposed on this project. They have obvious ulterior motives and wouldn't exactly be the unbiased voice of "fair" in this case. Also, any group that would have gone down this development path would have run into the same obstacles and roadblocks as this team.

It seems every project is getting some sort of help or TIFF nowadays. It isn't a Nashville trend, it is any everywhere trend. Without unilateral disarmament of government subsidy it isn't going away any time soon. I just don't find this unusual or really all that objectionable when the whole picture is spelled out.

So ....if they do it in New Jersey ...or everywhere, it is okay? lowest common denominator? Where is the CVB getting another $40m to build garages? Certainly not from this deal, uhm "sale".  I'm just a taxpayer, if I was a member of 1st Baptist, I'd want the best deal as well. As for the bidders that didn't win the competition for the "red herring" deal, that is hardly sour grapes, the "sale" scheme, presumably, was orchestrated after the RFP. I wouldn't mind losing a bid on a deal as long as the deal wasn't dramatically altered behind closed doors after I made my proposal. A private entity may have a right to do that, but what other deals, ahem, for the taxpayer's(?) benefit, were made behind closed doors, just curious? On the parking analysis, isn't this land they already own, are they buying it back, carrying cost ....puhlease. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by nvestnbna

[Leif]

I don't know, I've driven through here while it's been down to 2 lanes during rush hour frequently, and it's been fine. Though, now that they're detouring through 12th for construction it's kind of a nightmare. It will be 1000x better for the bicycle commuter once it's all done, though.

The detour sucks, they can't finish that fast enough.

[CenterHill]

I'm not letting myself go there - complaining about construction detours.    Sure, all this new downtown construction happening at once impacts your ability to get around.   The Gulch is clogged with traffic barriers, Demonbreun is one continuous construction zone, Hermitage Ave/KVB traffic in the morning is a total CF.   Heck, I tried to get downtown on my bike on Saturday and got stuck in Eakin construction traffic so long I finally gave up on the idea.    It's all part of the phenomenal growth so I won't complain.   I have about 25 years of smooth sailing downtown traffic that I can look back on.  

 

Of course, I'm talking right now about construction traffic.   There is the other element of increasing traffic volume, which I am deeply concerned about.   But save that for the mass transit thread.     

[Guest]

So ....if they do it in New Jersey ...or everywhere, it is okay? lowest common denominator? Where is the CVB getting another $40m to build garages? Certainly not from this deal, uhm "sale". I'm just a taxpayer, if I was a member of 1st Baptist, I'd want the best deal as well. As for the bidders that didn't win the competition for the "red herring" deal, that is hardly sour grapes, the "sale" scheme, presumably, was orchestrated after the RFP. I wouldn't mind losing a bid on a deal as long as the deal wasn't dramatically altered behind closed doors after I made my proposal. A private entity may have a right to do that, but what other deals, ahem, for the taxpayer's(?) benefit, were made behind closed doors, just curious? On the parking analysis, isn't this land they already own, are they buying it back, carrying cost ....puhlease.

A $400 MM retail oriented mixed use development is hardly lowest common denominator.

Do you know that the sale of the property was orchestrated after the RFP? I don't know that. Was the purchase or ground lease terms spelled out in the RFP? If not the argument is just total speculation. I'd like to know.

The article lists that the CVB will finance the construction of the garage. The final piece they are buying would be on improved land with a new property value and improved position. None of which would exist without the project. Isn't that fair since they will get the parking income? If their projections show they will make money on the parking, which I believe at this location, then what's the big deal there?

[CenterHill]

10-story hotel for Printers Alley

 

This keeps getting better.

 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2015/4/2/bza_approves_10_story_structure_for_printers_alley_hotel_project

 

 

 

 

 

[smeagolsfree]

I had to keep that one quiet as I saw the rendering a few weeks ago. I think it will work out to be a cool project.

[fieldmarshaldj]

My concern is the new addition on the north end (Bass) could overwhelm the rest of the project and I'm not crazy about the floors added to the Embers.

[nvestnbna]

A $400 MM retail oriented mixed use development is hardly lowest common denominator.

Do you know that the sale of the property was orchestrated after the RFP? I don't know that. Was the purchase or ground lease terms spelled out in the RFP? If not the argument is just total speculation. I'd like to know.

The article lists that the CVB will finance the construction of the garage. The final piece they are buying would be on improved land with a new property value and improved position. None of which would exist without the project. Isn't that fair since they will get the parking income? If their projections show they will make money on the parking, which I believe at this location, then what's the big deal there?

The value to the city seems to be low. I think according to the Tennessean the development group proposed "after" the award that they would like to buy the center. That would indicate it was after the RFP. My understanding separately is that the RFP did not include a sale scenario. Adding in all the costs, some of which are normal excavation, demo, site prep, I think it adds up to about $36m or $135/sf. That is less than the city paid Tower for their property not including these other costs in this convention center deal. This is substantially less than 1st Baptist is hoping for and a recent deal announced this week at 4th and Peabody seems to be in the $150/sf range. The papers seem to be full of unsubsidized deals every week at these levels or higher. I am just curious why this Broadway / CBD property is so worthy of a lower valuation? Especially since some of the parties described it as one of the most valuable sites in the southeast a year and a half ago, have things turned already? I also heard the city is paying the hotel $4m to get out of their lease deal. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by nvestnbna

[Jamie Hall]

No, because of growth. Even at 5:00 it's not bad. But, 11th is currently the only road that can circumvent going from Charlotte/"North" Side to the 8th S/12th S area without having to hit every major light (church, broadway, demonbreun). Once more people figure this out, it will be slammed with traffic. Having 11th four lanes will allow people not to hit these major intersections.

 

My hunch is that the days of getting through the Gulch area quickly are nearly over. With the influx of traffic, tourism and Capital View down there, I'd expect lots of delays and slow traffic even after construction is finished.

 

That might be an argument for making 11th four-lanes, but that appears to be a non-issue at this point since it won't happen.

[volsfanwill]

I like that, the middle part is my least favorite, but seriously, if more developers used old building and just built on top, I doubt people would complain so much.  

we mentioned that for the umph site. 

I really like the fact that the historic facades will remain. 

[CenterHill]

I like that, the middle part is my least favorite, but seriously, if more developers used old building and just built on top, I doubt people would complain so much.  

we mentioned that for the umph site. 

I really like the fact that the historic facades will remain. 

 

And are being restored.   The image is a bit small, but I like what I see for the restoration of the street level entrances, windows, etc.     This has the potential to be a really cool project.