The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Luvemtall]

The dedicated ROW seems to always be the problem. And having BRT although less expensive per mile than elevated lite Rail or monorail, is always going to have to deal with road conditions. Even with those dedicated lanes , there’s intersections to cross , accidents that can block ROW , and other variables that can interfere with the speed and flow of the buses. The ROW ALREADY EXISTS to add elevated rail , with elevated stations if desired. First floor commercial space , second level rail stations, and even levels above the station for parking and/or residential. Stop thinking of the same old excuses and start thinking big and into the future, it’s like we’re stuck in a time warp . I see the transit problem here as being the fact that everyone is so comfortable with the openness of space, just spead it out and it will be fine. Places like Boston, NYC , etc don’t have the open spaces to accommodate more roads and people on them. So trains make a lot of sense, and I’m in my 60’s was born and raised in Connecticut til I was 28 . We grew up with hoping on the train to NYC , it’s just instinct to do so. It’s changing the mindset of the people here, that I think is the biggest challenge.

[go_outside]

I hope that the next transit plan seriously considers BRT with dedicated ROW rather than light rail. I know light rail looks cooler on a brochure, but I'm skeptical that it justifies the enormous extra expense. 

That said, I still think grade-separated light or medium rail could play a role, and justify the extra expense, in dense places where at-grade ROW is not feasible.

[tragenvol]

On 4/29/2023 at 1:20 PM, Luvemtall said:

It makes no sense but when most of your people in power come mostly from rural farming areas , roads and infrastructure are not a priority. 

I get the frustration, but that doesn't appear to be the case.  TDOT falls under the governor within the executive branch in Tennessee; the governor sets his budget priorities.  The last three governors, two terms each, have been from non-rural, non-farming areas (Bredesen and Lee from Nashville and Haslam from Knoxville).  Legislators do not create fiscal year budgets, they approve or don't approve budget proposals.  Legislators add admendments to the governor's proposed budget, and many times their district benefits from added admendments involving roads.  But, the governor's administration sets the tone for spending.  Also, decades of policy and practice have been handed down from TDOT Commissioner and Senior Staff to the next; I wouldn't know if they've ever presented indebtedness plans for spending on roads at the governor's budget hearings, but I would speculate perhaps not.

Edited May 5, 2023 by tragenvol

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 5/1/2023 at 9:16 AM, PaulChinetti said:

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

Good Lord. This is what intersection design looks like when you completely ignore everything other than moving the maximum number of cars in the least amount of time. It's clear that zero consideration was given to making this accessible, convenient, or safe for pedestrians.

[markhollin]

A federal appeals court on Wednesday ruled against Nashville in a lawsuit over the city’s sidewalk construction requirements for new development, but it's still unclear exactly what practical implications the ruling will have.

The ordinance, last updated in 2019, requires that property owners on or near busy roads either build a sidewalk on their property for public use or pay a fee into a sidewalk construction fund to receive a building permit.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2023/05/11/nashville-sidewalk-ordinance-federal-appeals-court-rules-against-city/70207360007/

[PaulChinetti]

Time to raise taxes to pay for sidewalks then. I'm sure the libertarian think tank will just love that. 

"Knight and Mayes, represented by Nashville libertarian think tank Beacon Center, appealed the ruling."

Solution, no more building permits on any street until you can connect the entire street with sidewalks. That should please all parties right, right? (sarcasm)

I can't even find either Knight or Mayes on the parcel viewer, I wonder where they did/were building.

[Luvemtall]

I’m not understanding why it’s such a big deal for developers, anyone for that matter, to install sidewalks. I recently had 145 feet of 4 foot wide sidewalk installed for 6500.00 dollars. It’s not a big dealbreaker, just do it and move on stop whining about it.

[PaulChinetti]

Because that’s 6500 dollars that’s not profit…

*I’m guessing

[BeaveStirs]

Single family residential is typically more straight forward although remember it is not just the sidewalk. What you have to remember speaking in terms of commercial development is it not simply adding the sidewalk. They have stretched it to include the curb, gutter, sidewalk, stormwater infrastructure (including tie ins to the existing system) and right of way dedication. So they make you do a "sidewalk" but really it is more than that, the forced ROW dedication in itself is huge. This can be substantial along the major corridors and the government is getting that for free. Where we know from history the government is required to pay fair market value for land they take from eminent domain, they have not been doing this in Nashville. I am not aware of any other cities that have put the burden on the private sector to build infrastructure in the way Nashville has.

[Luvemtall]

I could tolerate complaints from small SFH or small businesses more so than big developers. If you’re building a multi million dollar project and these cost are placed upon the developers, then that’s the cost of doing business. Who would think about a major project without it being finished off with proper infrastructure including sidewalks and connections to public utilities? Like really , some developer says we are building this 450 unit apartment building, but we’re not going to put in any sidewalks or drainage or connections to utilities. What’s wrong with that picture? 

[WebberThomas4]

One positive from this: no more zigzagging sidewalks or sidewalks to no where. There are several new homes along Riverside Dr with sidewalks that don’t connect on either side. It does not make any sense. 

[markhollin]

More info on the 8 week shutdown of the Broadway Viaduct for the new version at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/05/12/q-a-clayton-markham-broadway-viaduct.html
 

[PaulChinetti]

4 hours ago, WebberThomas4 said:

One positive from this: no more zigzagging sidewalks or sidewalks to no where. There are several new homes along Riverside Dr with sidewalks that don’t connect on either side. It does not make any sense. 

I’m ok with those though, they give pedestrians a little refuge on streets that have nothing. 

I would hope it has the benefit of neighborhoods banding together to get them connected. But I might be thinking of a whole neighborhood of Urban Planet posters, haha. 

[GregH]

23 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

I can't even find either Knight or Mayes on the parcel viewer, I wonder where they did/were building.

I believe it was to be a SFH on Acklen Park Dr. in Sylvan Park

[PruneTracy]

23 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

I’m not understanding why it’s such a big deal for developers, anyone for that matter, to install sidewalks. I recently had 145 feet of 4 foot wide sidewalk installed for 6500.00 dollars. It’s not a big dealbreaker, just do it and move on stop whining about it.

I'd be curious to know the circumstances around that price. Much of the problem in Metro is that MWS or other departments are making the developers install closed-system drainage, curb and gutter, etc. to go with the sidewalks. $11/sf is a reasonable price for just the concrete paving but when you add in the incidentals it can easily be five or ten times that amount. That's why NDOT is paying such a high price to install sidewalks themselves (and putting the money in a general fund instead of leaving it to developers to build them isn't going to change that).

[Luvemtall]

Points taken, but even at $55/sf a 100 foot section equates to 22,000 dollars. Yeah that’s high for smaller projects, but in the scope of a Multi Million Dollar project such as these going up say along Division it’s not that expensive in the overall cost. I mean I understand what some of you are trying to say, but I still strongly believe that that burden should fall onto the developers, not on the taxpayers from the city budgets 

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update.

Various angles where 11th Ave. passes under the viaduct:

[sambo]

Is it possible to just make a light rail line from the airport to the Music City Star Donelson station? It's only 1.9 miles from airport

[MontanaGuy]

1 hour ago, sambo said:

Is it possible to just make a light rail line from the airport to the Music City Star Donelson station? It's only 1.9 miles from airport

That's an interesting idea that I haven't heard mentioned before and it seems like a good idea because it's so close.  I'd be interested in hearing some informed opinions about this idea.

[Bos2Nash]

2 hours ago, sambo said:

Is it possible to just make a light rail line from the airport to the Music City Star Donelson station? It's only 1.9 miles from airport

  I think connecting the terminal to Donelson Station is our best move for connecting the airport to downtown. The issue with a Donelson station connection is we do not have enough frequency on the WeGo Star for it to work correctly. We could technically tie it into the bus system at Donelson Station, but then it is the same discussion as the Murfreesboro BRT line. Light Rail for this small length almost doesn't make sense. Rail is so expensive here in the country, there needs to be a larger project to get to the economies that make light rail make sense. One thing to keep in mind when referencing light rail is it's not just laying some track and procuring some trains. It is those two things, plus a layover/store yard, a maintenance facility it is investment in land for those items, etc. So for light rail to work we really need to get to a certain scale to see the economies in it.

At the encouragement of some of the CMs I forwarded the below post from last July to all the CMs in which the WeGo Star serves. It resulted in a conversation with Jeff Syracuse and Steve Bland where we chatted about the Star as a whole and where things stand with Positive Train Control (this is why WeGo cut the late trains on Friday and Titan game trains), TOD and overall system expansion. The plan below shows a tunnel that goes from Donelson Station to the Airport, but I have been told rail tunnels are running approximately $1 billion per mile (!!!). A solid modification to the idea below could convert the segment from the Airport to Donelson to shuttle busses (natural gas/electric/hydrogen powered) and then the train on 15 to 30 minute headways could pick folks up.

On 7/23/2022 at 1:58 PM, Bos2Nash said:

I think modifying the WeGo Star is the best place to start too as there is a certain amount of established infrastructure already in place. Stations really do not need to be the most impressive thing. That article posted by @japan(thank you by the way) specifically called out how some of the overly designed stations on the GLX project created huge budget inflation. The biggest thing is ADA accessibility and level access boarding (so you don't need to climb those steps into the train). I agree about upzoning around the stations but within that half mile range step down the zoning so that we don't go from MUL immediately to and R policy.

I would take the WeGo Star a step further though. The first step is a full electrification (and safety upgrading) of the entire line and replacing the currently locomotive fleet with Electric Multiple Units (EMUs). EMUs are the standard for subways, high-speed trains, and high-frequency Regional Rail service, because of their reliability, ease of maintenance, and superior acceleration. This acceleration aspect could be capitalized on by adding a series of new stops, making the line much more convenient to residents and workers. This new electrification would add 7 new stops to the line with plenty of opportunity to add more. Additionally, I would propose an underground tunnel from Donelson Station (area, elevation changes for a tunnel would move the tunnel entry away from the actual station), under Donelson Pike (SR255) to the Airport. Finally, I would extend the train service down to where Sparta Pike (SR 70) meets I-40. These EMUs could run on 15 to 30 minute schedules and the stations would be expanded to two tracks to allow for train bypassing.

I do believe this line is shared with freight still, so there would be negotiations there, but that is a solvable problem, I believe. Freight would not be required to use the electrification components. Due to the freight corridor though, this line would never be able to upgrade from Regional Rail to Heavy Rail (subway, third rail).

Here is my proposed WeGo Star map

New stations are numbered below, in all the WeGo Star main line could be 15 stops, with 2 additional connecting to the airport. The first two new stations has the potential to stretch the bigger development out to where Mill Creek feeds into the Cumberland.

RiverFront Station (existing)
1 – Railyard District @ Fesslers Lane ––– The entire Railyard district should be rezoned to MUI-A, most likely with a UDO over the top to allow density here. The north/south railroad (crosses the Cumberland at Shelby Bottoms) would be the eastern border of the area. I think a pedestrian bridge could then cross the Cumberland and connect to Davidson St/Shelby Bottoms Greenway. 
2 – River Hills Station ––– This station would connect to some of the industrial land, but also existing SFH stock that otherwise must make use of Lebanon Pike. There is space for a generous park and ride or a parking structure that TOD could be built around.
3 – Two Rivers/ McGavock Pike ––– This makes sense as it is a major crossing in an otherwise isolated area. Upzoning may be a hard sell in the area, but upzoning could be done between the train station and up to Two Rivers Middle School to create a solid corridor. This would again be able to connect into the Greenway network at Two Rivers.
Donelson Station (existing)
    3a – Elm Hill Pike (Underground)  ––– Major intersection/commercial node between Donelson and Airport
    3b – BNA @ Terminal Drive (Underground or Above)  ––– Major airport terminal. Every other train departing Riverfront Station could have the airport as the destination.
Hermitage Station (existing)
4 – S Greenhill Road @ W Division St ––– Area at intersection has a lot of open space for a station and track expansion. Provide a corridor between the station and  Mt. Juliet Elementary.
Mt. Juliet Station (existing)
5 – Golden Bear Gateway @ E Division Street ––– While this area does not have a lot of residential at it now. Providing transportation options for employees would be a great benefit, plus having a station with development friendly zoning could increase the development around it allowing employees to move closer and potential sparking more commercial around the industrial. 
Martha Station (existing)
6 – Cairo Bend Rd @ Lebanon Rd ––– Major road intersection between two existing stations.
Hamilton Springs Station (existing)
7 – W Baddour Pkwy ––– Station could be before or after the crossing (positioned so a stopped train never blocks the road) but would allow for easy access to established commercial node. Could allow for non-personal vehicle improvements between S Hartmann Dr and Maple Hill Road
Lebanon Station (existing)
7a – Sparta Pike @ Briskin Lane ––– This is a major road connection with other large are employers. Improvements to the area could include pedestrian pathway and/or shuttle service to a certain entertainment venue rumored to be in close proximity to the station.

I'd be very interested in getting @rookzie's take on this proposal.

No matter what though, a connection to Donelson would involve a serious investment and upgrade for one of our existing systems or the other.

[markhollin]

Bollard installation on both sides of Broadway between 4th and 5th Avenues nearly complete:

[smeagolsfree]

16 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

  I think connecting the terminal to Donelson Station is our best move for connecting the airport to downtown. The issue with a Donelson station connection is we do not have enough frequency on the WeGo Star for it to work correctly. We could technically tie it into the bus system at Donelson Station, but then it is the same discussion as the Murfreesboro BRT line. Light Rail for this small length almost doesn't make sense. Rail is so expensive here in the country, there needs to be a larger project to get to the economies that make light rail make sense. One thing to keep in mind when referencing light rail is it's not just laying some track and procuring some trains. It is those two things, plus a layover/store yard, a maintenance facility it is investment in land for those items, etc. So for light rail to work we really need to get to a certain scale to see the economies in it.

At the encouragement of some of the CMs I forwarded the below post from last July to all the CMs in which the WeGo Star serves. It resulted in a conversation with Jeff Syracuse and Steve Bland where we chatted about the Star as a whole and where things stand with Positive Train Control (this is why WeGo cut the late trains on Friday and Titan game trains), TOD and overall system expansion. The plan below shows a tunnel that goes from Donelson Station to the Airport, but I have been told rail tunnels are running approximately $1 billion per mile (!!!). A solid modification to the idea below could convert the segment from the Airport to Donelson to shuttle busses (natural gas/electric/hydrogen powered) and then the train on 15 to 30 minute headways could pick folks up.

No matter what though, a connection to Donelson would involve a serious investment and upgrade for one of our existing systems or the other.

Agree with your assessment and the fact is that they would have to do major upgrades to the Donelson line (Positive Train Control) to allow it to run more than a few times a day. That would still be cheaper than a whole new line down Murfreesboro Rd. The problem with Metro leadership is they do not think outside the box that is placed squarely atop their heads as there are no holes for them to see outside the box. All the see is black.

[chc3]

17 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

  I think connecting the terminal to Donelson Station is our best move for connecting the airport to downtown. The issue with a Donelson station connection is we do not have enough frequency on the WeGo Star for it to work correctly. We could technically tie it into the bus system at Donelson Station, but then it is the same discussion as the Murfreesboro BRT line. Light Rail for this small length almost doesn't make sense. Rail is so expensive here in the country, there needs to be a larger project to get to the economies that make light rail make sense. One thing to keep in mind when referencing light rail is it's not just laying some track and procuring some trains. It is those two things, plus a layover/store yard, a maintenance facility it is investment in land for those items, etc. So for light rail to work we really need to get to a certain scale to see the economies in it.

At the encouragement of some of the CMs I forwarded the below post from last July to all the CMs in which the WeGo Star serves. It resulted in a conversation with Jeff Syracuse and Steve Bland where we chatted about the Star as a whole and where things stand with Positive Train Control (this is why WeGo cut the late trains on Friday and Titan game trains), TOD and overall system expansion. The plan below shows a tunnel that goes from Donelson Station to the Airport, but I have been told rail tunnels are running approximately $1 billion per mile (!!!). A solid modification to the idea below could convert the segment from the Airport to Donelson to shuttle busses (natural gas/electric/hydrogen powered) and then the train on 15 to 30 minute headways could pick folks up.

No matter what though, a connection to Donelson would involve a serious investment and upgrade for one of our existing systems or the other.

I’ve given up hope that we’ll ever get light rail in my lifetime. Given the animosity of the state and the absurd costs, we’ll be condemned to increasingly enervating traffic. It’s not really a first-class airport without a rail link. 

[Luvemtall]

2 hours ago, markhollin said:

Bollard installation on both sides of Broadway between 4th and 5th Avenues nearly complete:

IMO I think they should’ve used some of the millions they get from tourists taxes ( hotel, MCC, etc) to apply some nicer lighting and street scape to lower Broadway. Like what’s about to take place on 2nd Avenue, and definitely redo the sidewalks so as they no longer are tripping hazards. If it’s going to be the tourist magnet and center of all so many events , it should at least be presented in a fashionable manner.

[Archibum]

21 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

  I think connecting the terminal to Donelson Station is our best move for connecting the airport to downtown. The issue with a Donelson station connection is we do not have enough frequency on the WeGo Star for it to work correctly. We could technically tie it into the bus system at Donelson Station, but then it is the same discussion as the Murfreesboro BRT line. Light Rail for this small length almost doesn't make sense. Rail is so expensive here in the country, there needs to be a larger project to get to the economies that make light rail make sense. One thing to keep in mind when referencing light rail is it's not just laying some track and procuring some trains. It is those two things, plus a layover/store yard, a maintenance facility it is investment in land for those items, etc. So for light rail to work we really need to get to a certain scale to see the economies in it.

At the encouragement of some of the CMs I forwarded the below post from last July to all the CMs in which the WeGo Star serves. It resulted in a conversation with Jeff Syracuse and Steve Bland where we chatted about the Star as a whole and where things stand with Positive Train Control (this is why WeGo cut the late trains on Friday and Titan game trains), TOD and overall system expansion. The plan below shows a tunnel that goes from Donelson Station to the Airport, but I have been told rail tunnels are running approximately $1 billion per mile (!!!). A solid modification to the idea below could convert the segment from the Airport to Donelson to shuttle busses (natural gas/electric/hydrogen powered) and then the train on 15 to 30 minute headways could pick folks up.

No matter what though, a connection to Donelson would involve a serious investment and upgrade for one of our existing systems or the other.

Why not a train at grade on Donelson Pk if we are dreaming? I feel like Donelson Pk doesn't get the traffic now to warrant as many lanes as it has.