The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Luvemtall]

20 minutes ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

Totally agree. 

Tn: I have a great invisible number.

Ky: Good for you. We have great physical roads you can actually use.

It's just me and I know this, but I can't understand the thinking behind pay as you go. It seems backwards because inflation is a real thing that has always and will always happen. Prices on materials and labor will only grow. Proactive is always better than retroactive. The roads are falling behind other state's roads and it shows. It will be costlier (is that a word?) later than currently, and that's a fact!

It’s just not you, there’s a lot of us out here that believe the same as you . It makes no sense but when most of your people in power come mostly from rural farming areas , roads and infrastructure are not a priority. 

[BnaBreaker]

9 hours ago, markhollin said:

Coverage of the official opening of the improved 12th Ave. South with bicycle lanes from The Gulch to Douglas Ave:

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/12-avenue-south-redesign-project-complete-after-a-year-of-construction

Was hoping to see some of the new road in that news coverage feature, but instead the video package they put together featured fascinating close-up shots of a tree, then a sign, then another tree, then a stake in the ground.  Thanks Channel 5, very informative.  

4 hours ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

Totally agree. 

Tn: I have a great invisible number.

Ky: Good for you. We have great physical roads you can actually use.

It's just me and I know this, but I can't understand the thinking behind pay as you go. It seems backwards because inflation is a real thing that has always and will always happen. Prices on materials and labor will only grow. Proactive is always better than retroactive. The roads are falling behind other state's roads and it shows. It will be costlier (is that a word?) later than currently, and that's a fact!

Well said!  

Edited April 29, 2023 by BnaBreaker

[markhollin]

Progress on massive reworked intersection for I-40 and Donelson Pike:

[donNdonelson2]

It is a massive project. Just posting this as a reminder:

Reconfiguration of I-40/Donelson Pike/Airport interchange.

images from TDOT website

[KJHburg]

We have 4 of these DDI interchanges (and counting)  in Charlotte as NC DOT loves them now and building those (and traffic circles) all over the state.  They have changed existing interchanges to these and with little to no problems.  They do move traffic much more efficiently and you will like them once you get used to them as driving on them is a like a slalom course.   (they I have not seen one like that at your airport)

https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/safety-mobility/diverging-diamond-interchanges/Pages/default.aspx#:~:text=A diverging diamond interchange allows,of lanes and traffic signals.

[donNdonelson2]

On 4/30/2023 at 4:35 PM, KJHburg said:

We have 4 of these DDI interchanges (and counting)  in Charlotte as NC DOT loves them now and building those (and traffic circles) all over the state.  They have changed existing interchanges to these and with little to no problems.  They do move traffic much more efficiently and you will like them once you get used to them as driving on them is a like a slalom course.   (they I have not seen one like that at your airport)

https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/safety-mobility/diverging-diamond-interchanges/Pages/default.aspx#:~:text=A diverging diamond interchange allows,of lanes and traffic signals.

I’ve driven the diverging diamond style interchange a few times in my travels. A little shocking on first encounter, but they ARE good at moving traffic efficiently. I will especially appreciate the elimination of left turns across traffic at this very busy airport interchange.

Edited May 1, 2023 by donNdonelson2

[KJHburg]

Wait until TN DOT discovers one of these the Continuous Flow Intersections    One of these just opened a year ago here in Charlotte and the intersection is really moving a lot better now.  This one is weird the first time you go through it and use it but then it makes sense.   I am sure somewhere in Nashville you could use one of these for a heavily travelled at grade intersection.  

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2019/2019-10-14-charlotte-intersection-getting-innovative-pattern.aspx

and now NC is building a couple of these.  

 

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update.

Several views from where 11th Ave. passes under the bridge:

[PaulChinetti]

11 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Wait until TN DOT discovers one of these the Continuous Flow Intersections    One of these just opened a year ago here in Charlotte and the intersection is really moving a lot better now.  This one is weird the first time you go through it and use it but then it makes sense.   I am sure somewhere in Nashville you could use one of these for a heavily travelled at grade intersection.  

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2019/2019-10-14-charlotte-intersection-getting-innovative-pattern.aspx

and now NC is building a couple of these.  

 

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

[chc3]

I’ve always had a weird interest in traffic signals and Nashville stands out in a peculiar way. While the Western US always uses black housing and the East generally uses yellow, Nashville has been installing more black housing signals lately. Is there a standard color, or are we migrating to the West Coast standard now. I think the black ones are easier on the eyes and make the three colors more visible and prominent.

 

[GregH]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

Agreed. Plus, they're going to need to special-order pedestrian walk signals to display a three-digit crossing time (and be visible from 90 ft away) 

 

53 minutes ago, chc3 said:

I’ve always had a weird interest in traffic signals and Nashville stands out in a peculiar way. While the Western US always uses black housing and the East generally uses yellow, Nashville has been installing more black housing signals lately. Is there a standard color, or are we migrating to the West Coast standard now. I think the black ones are easier on the eyes and make the three colors more visible and prominent.

 

Wow, can honestly say that this has never occurred to me to think about.

[PruneTracy]

16 hours ago, KJHburg said:

We have 4 of these DDI interchanges (and counting)  in Charlotte as NC DOT loves them now and building those (and traffic circles) all over the state.  They have changed existing interchanges to these and with little to no problems.  They do move traffic much more efficiently and you will like them once you get used to them as driving on them is a like a slalom course.   (they I have not seen one like that at your airport)

https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/safety-mobility/diverging-diamond-interchanges/Pages/default.aspx#:~:text=A diverging diamond interchange allows,of lanes and traffic signals.

When the Donelson Pike interchange opens, it will be Tennessee's fifth DDI (all TDOT projects):

• SR 115 (US 129, Alcoa Highway) at Middlesettlements Road in Blount County (the OG, open to traffic)
• I-40 at SR 66 (Winfield Dunn Parkway) in Sevier County (open to traffic)
• I-24 at Hickory Hollow Parkway / Century Farms Parkway (open to traffic)
• I-65 at June Lake Boulevard (nee Buckner Road) (under construction)
• I-40 at SR 255 (Donelson Pike) (under construction)

I like them just fine but TDOT tends to latch onto the latest "fad" in interchange design, which is why there are so many 90's-era SPUIs around the state. There are better options for new builds; DDIs were developed for interchange reconstructions.

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

They can be fixed by including refuges between the through and left-turn lanes. For example, in your attached photo on the near-side approach three refuges would drop the crossing length to a max of three lanes. Of course, those take up even more right-of-way and probably not ideal for pedestrians to have to use three cycles to cross the road. The phasing on continuous flow intersections is also not conducive to getting pedestrians across the road on the main approaches (the ones with the offset turn lanes).

45 minutes ago, chc3 said:

I’ve always had a weird interest in traffic signals and Nashville stands out in a peculiar way. While the Western US always uses black housing and the East generally uses yellow, Nashville has been installing more black housing signals lately. Is there a standard color, or are we migrating to the West Coast standard now. I think the black ones are easier on the eyes and make the three colors more visible and prominent.

There is not a standard color; typically they are yellow, black, dark green, or dark brown. (Some may remember the older 80's-style integrated mast arms and signal heads in downtown Nashville that were dark brown.) Per the MUTCD the hoods, louvers/fins, and backplates must be dull black to reduce glare. Cities are moving to black signal heads (along with black strain poles and mast arms) because it looks classier, I think. 

As far as visibility goes, you may see newer signal heads with a yellow reflective strip around the backplate. It's not a requirement but a suggestion in the MUTCD. This is to help differentiate the signals from background lights and also call attention to it if the signal is not working (i.e., if a bulb is burned out or the electricity is cut). Of course it doesn't matter because no one knows what you're supposed to do at an intersection with malfunctioning signals.

One of the problems with black signal heads (or any sufficiently dark color) is that the MUTCD requires signal heads that are not intended to be operational (for example on a roadway under construction) to be covered. Typically contractors just put a black trash bag over the hoods. This works when signal heads are yellow but when they are black it's not immediately obvious it's covered. It's worse when they have reflective strips on backplates because contractors never cover that, which makes the signal look like it's malfunctioning instead of intentionally not operational, leading to the same ambiguities in how drivers are supposed to behave.

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

 

that is not the one they built in NC.  Ours has a grassy median in it and it it it not that wide.  It is 6 lanes main road and 4 lanes the other road.  It really works and they are pedestrian crossings that are much safer than the original regular intersection that was there before.  

[chris holman]

On 4/30/2023 at 8:57 AM, donNdonelson2 said:

It is a massive project. Just posting this as a reminder:

Reconfiguration of I-40/Donelson Pike/Airport interchange.

images from TDOT website

Visual demonstration of DDI.

[BnaBreaker]

11 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

This looks like a hell scape for pedestrians. Are those streets 9 and 6 lanes wide?

Right?  I'm sure we'd never have a traffic flow issue ever again if just covered the entire county with asphalt!

[smeagolsfree]

This is where Metro sets the crosswalk timer for 15 seconds to get across the street. That is pretty typical for NDOT.  You have to be fleet footed to get across an intersection I have found in many places.

[smeagolsfree]

 

From WKRN yesterday!

Transit Alliance calls for dedicated transportation, infrastructure funding from Nashville (wkrn.com)

[markhollin]

New railroad ties waiting for installation on CSX tracks in northern Gulch.

Looking south from Church Street Viaduct where it crosses over the tracks:

[markhollin]

Nashville Mayor John Cooper wants to spend $15 million accelerating the creation of a rapid-transit route connecting downtown and Nashville International Airport.

Cooper's budget proposal, filed May 1, earmarks that amount of surplus funding to lay the groundwork for dedicated bus lanes on Murfreesboro Pike all the way out to the airport (currently, buses are stuck in traffic with the rest of us). If approved, the budget would multiply — by 7.5 times — the money dedicated to the project so far.

If approved, CEO of WeGoPublic Transit Steve Bland believes the funding will show the federal government that there's local commitment to the project and the city isn't just "fishing for funds." The funding also would allow WeGo to tackle more steps of the planning process simultaneously, including design, environmental studies and public engagement. Bland said he has an eye on spurring mixed-income housing development along the route while embracing strategies to retain small and minority-owned businesses and tamp down the effects of potential displacement and gentrification.

The total project would cost several hundred million dollars, Bland said. Plans could be ready for federal funding consideration in 2026, if Cooper's $15 million earmark endures in the final budget Metro Council will enact in June, Bland said.

Another factor working in Murfreesboro Pike's favor is that there's a lot more right-of-way available than other routes — essentially, more breathing room to be able to add what's formally known as bus rapid transit. "There are large segments where frankly, we wouldn't really be giving up anything," Bland said.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/05/03/cooper-budget-wego-brt-airport-bna-murfreesboro.html

[chc3]

Why oh why didn’t they build a light rail route from BNA as part of the airport remodel? If they’d started during the pandemic, it would be finished by now. The metro of lost opportunities!

[MontanaGuy]

24 minutes ago, chc3 said:

Why oh why didn’t they build a light rail route from BNA as part of the airport remodel? If they’d started during the pandemic, it would be finished by now. The metro of lost opportunities!

Exactly!  And once people used it and saw the benefits of having it they'd want more! 

[chc3]

Unfortunately the problem with buses is that they’re perceived by visitors as downscale and perhaps intimidating, although I used the airport Sound Transit express bus from downtown to SEA all the time when I worked downtown. Metro will have to devise innovative signage and marketing to encourage use, especially given the several hundred million dollars price tag.

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, chc3 said:

Why oh why didn’t they build a light rail route from BNA as part of the airport remodel? If they’d started during the pandemic, it would be finished by now. The metro of lost opportunities!

It is not a done deal yet. Cooper is a lame duck, and his plan is just a plan that can be changed by the next mayor. I do not think the guy knows how to ride a train.

[andywildman]

21 hours ago, markhollin said:

Nashville Mayor John Cooper wants to spend $15 million accelerating the creation of a rapid-transit route connecting downtown and Nashville International Airport.

My comment may belong in the transportation thread.

I really like this (long-overdue) move from Cooper - it's one of those no-regrets actions we can take without a massive referendum or a half decade of study. Establishing dedicated right-of-way for transportation is the most important transit-related action that Nashville can take in the short term.

There are a few priorities that this will help Nashville prove out:

• Bus rapid transit in dedicated bus lanes, where car commuters and tourists in ride-shares can see public transportation passing them, will encourage more people to shift trips from cars to transit
• Leveraging a rapid transit overlay to enable more density along the corridor will create a positive feedback loop of more residents and businesses that leverage transit for car-light and car-free lifestyle
• Proof-of-concept partnership with TDOT for dedicated transit right-of-way

Richmond, VA just built a BRT line for ~$7M/mile (though only half of the line is truly dedicated right-of-way, so you can argue that the cost/mile is closer to $15M). Recent light rail construction across this country has exceeded $100M/mile. This could be a proof-of-concept that helps build support for further transit expansion (both BRT lanes and light-rail).

[Bos2Nash]

My biggest concern with BRT for the airport is the directness of the BRT out on Murfreesboro Road. The dedicated ROW is absolutely the biggest hurdle for this project, but to me the optics of the bus will be right behind it. If the bus runs from the terminal to the 56 and then transfer, that may be difficult. I know this would be like any train transfer, but buses also have much more limited space for items such as luggage and having the airport traffic boarding a limited space bus could be cumbersome, especially during peak hours. I think this is a solvable problem through scheduling, but I think for the bus line to be successful it would have to be a direct, no transfer, bus route to downtown with limited stops along Murfreesboro Pike (limited to key stops near hotel areas). The airport bus would have to have its headways scheduled to avoid conflict with the 56 bus line and create blockages. The priority would need to be the 56.

I've ridden the bus a few times in Nashville and did not have a bad experience, but the bus definitely has different optics than a train service. I know I always refer to Boston, but the MBTA's Silver Line is a great mix of transit and airport traffic. The Silver Line has specific buses that leave South Station for the airport with select stops within the Silver Line tunnel before merging on to the Mass Turnpike to Logan Airport. There are other buses that service Seaport and Design Center on transit specific buses, but they share the same route for a portion of the route. So it proves it can be done, and is just a scheduling effort. The other aspect to this is Boston has the Blue Line with an airport stop and bus shuttles from the BL stop to the terminals. Both services are very heavily used and buses for both routes are airport specific in order to handle luggage for passengers. The bus will also need to be MUCH more accessible than it currently is. Someone recently pointed out to me the WeGo is literally the furthest bus stop from the terminal. There are empty bus loading zones, sitting unused, before WeGo buses are accessed. If we want bus transit to succeed, they need door access to the terminal! 

Again, this all comes down to the dedicated ROW to ensure that the buses have a clear path to and from the airport.