The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[GregH]

Yeah I can't imagine any large-scale eminent domain happening for highways (or anything else) today. It would be a huge fight.

Just now, MLBrumby said:

Does anyone know if the very expensive SMART project on I-24 to M'boro has made any difference?  I have been skeptical of it since I first heard about it. So wondering how it's working.

I'm also curious. I'm not a regular 24 commuter but I've never seen anything displayed on the new signs and was never clear on what they were supposed to do  anyway.

[donNdonelson2]

Just updating this stretch of Briley Parkway (and some exit upgrades on the north side) would create an excellent bypass for lots of through traffic headed from I-24 to points north and northwest via I-65 and I-24. Much easier than trying to extend 440.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by donNdonelson2

[MidTenn1]

9 minutes ago, erdichia said:

 

If they added a few miles to the east side of 440 they could connect it to Briley Parkway and create a loop around the city. Not clue why no one is pushing for this.

 

 

Here's some 'clues'....

• You are putting another complex interchange within a few thousand feet of another, perhaps the most complex interchange in the city. The required weaving plus lane marking and signage requirements would be impossible to comply with national standards.
• The existing I-40 /Briley Parkway interchange on the east side of town is at the foot of an airport runway. To build any higher would require some bridges to be in the flight path and that's not going to happen. A thousand-foot tunnel was originally planned to carry traffic from east-bound I-40 to northbound Briley Parkway., however the costs were prohibitive. So, some clever engineering with some functional compromises managed to appease the FAA.
• Originally, in the 1970's, I-440 was to be extended to I-40 before the Briley Parkway interchange to allow traffic to flow to and from the east (Lebanon/Mt. Juliet) to access I-440. However, the FHWA (FEDERAL Highway Administration) nixed this, as I recall. I don't know why.
• And everyone, keep in mind the Interstate system in Nashville was 'planned' in the 1960s when Nashville's population was 149,000, so we are dealing with that.

Good luck in asking Johnson County to pay exclusively for Nashville's highway improvements. We live in a political world.

[MidTenn1]

37 minutes ago, GregH said:

Yeah I can't imagine any large-scale eminent domain happening for highways (or anything else) today. It would be a huge fight.

I'm also curious. I'm not a regular 24 commuter but I've never seen anything displayed on the new signs and was never clear on what they were supposed to do  anyway.

The I-24 Smart Corridor project will be fully operational in the Spring of 2023.

There will be significant benefits relative to the costs. The costs of adding lanes to I-24 would have been many times more expensive, but with similar benefits.

OK, I'm out'a here. 

 

[Bos2Nash]

41 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

Just updating this stretch of Briley Parkway (and some exit upgrades on the north side) would create an excellent bypass for lots of through traffic headed from I-24 to points north and northwest via I-65 and I-24. Much easier than trying to extend 440.

 

Not sure this is necessary. We already have an interstate within a mile of this stretch of road. Similar to the sentiments MidTenn1 mentioned above, why would we want to have two quite complex interstate interchanges within this close proximity to one another. 

[donNdonelson2]

2 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Not sure this is necessary. We already have an interstate within a mile of this stretch of road. Similar to the sentiments MidTenn1 mentioned above, why would we want to have two quite complex interstate interchanges within this close proximity to one another. 

I don’t think the Briley/I-40 interchange at the airport needs an upgrade, the “north side” I refer to is where Briley meets 65 & 24 on the north side. Those interchanges are very antiquated and insufficient.

[KJHburg]

Since I came  up TN 109 I thought of this for a bypass.  Why not upgrade this highway to interstate standards to complete 1-840 loop northward to I-65.  It has a wide right of way and around Gallatin is a bypass with grade separated interchanges.  It cuts through the rock (a problem some have told me) and can be connected back to I-65 north and west of Portland.  I did notice quite a few trucks on the highway already and not sure if they were local deliveries or trying to avoid central Nashville to get to I-840 east. 

The through traffic is choking your city especially near downtown and will not get better in the next decades only much worse.  

This would spur growth in these towns and surely the legislators from those areas would like that. 

TN 109 photos from today on my way to Kentucky.   I was staying in Mt Juliet and my GPS told me this was the quicker way to go instead of through Nashville this morning.  

[donNdonelson2]

KJHburg, I agree, and have tossed that out there in conversation on UP before. This would provide great bypass potential for truckers, especially. Even as is, it’s a pretty good option!

[MLBrumby]

I think that was the intent behind TN109 (as a NE bypass after the northern 840 arc was nixed), but in typical TDOT fashion it was done so bassackwardly with grade intersections and stop lights all along the way. It is not an old road, and (once again in TDOT fashion) it has "only" taken 20 years to get what you see now. The link from Portland to I-65 is not even under construction r.n. (Yay! "pay go"), and by the time it is finished it will be woefully out-of-date.  I just don't get their planning process. It never seems to get ahead of growth. Yes, we are all aware of the bone-throwing to podunk towns/counties, but when they have a dire need staring them in the face, they do it completely wrong. TN109 should have been done with the 4-lane limited-access with access roads along most of the major segments. There was already an overused highway before the "expansion" began construction. Instead of building parallel, they (unwisely) built on the same ROW.  

Above, someone mentioned the old Briley Pkwy link between I-24 and I-40; and that was (as I understand) done 60 years ago. Regarding TN109 it's apparent that TDOT never learned a thing in that 6-decade span. Sorry folks, I know some here are bigtime supporters of TDOT, but they're failing!  I can't even drive to Nashville now without counting on a 20-minute delay (increasingly more so) now when I go REGARDLESS of the day or time. And (the worst part) there are very few alternate routes) when it becomes a parking lot. So if you love TDOT, at least understand my frustration and sheer pissed-offness with them. Living in Chattanooga, I realize that we're a bit of a stepchild because we're the 4th-5th ranked city and we only have one Interstate through our city (yes, I-75 skirts the east side)... and so much funnels through here. Fortunately, we locals know the drive-arounds to avoide the standstills that happen EVERY DAY! We're now in the midst (the FIFTH year) of a construction project on a mere 2-mile stretch of I-24 and junction with I-75. And they haven't even started on Phase 2!!!!!!  Disgusted here!  To paraphrase a cable guy... "Git it f...king done!" 

[Luvemtall]

109 isn’t going to be a route that truckers will take, or people on a time crunch. To many traffic lights and slow intercity speed zones. Just in the section from I-840 though Lebanon to the bridge into Gallatin they have already installed 3-4 new traffic signals and I know of at lest 3 more coming 

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

109 isn’t going to be a route that truckers will take, or people on a time crunch. To many traffic lights and slow intercity speed zones. Just in the section from I-840 though Lebanon to the bridge into Gallatin they have already installed 3-4 new traffic signals and I know of at lest 3 more coming 

that is why I suggested it be converted to a freeway.  It seems TDOT does not like to build highways like other states.  In Texas TxDOT would have converted that highway to a limited access freeway.  In NC they would have designated it a future interstate corridor and worked on it in pieces until it is done.  We have future interstate corridors all over NC.  

Kentucky where I am tonight has freeways some former tollways all over the state.  They seem to have a great  highway system here. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by KJHburg

[donNdonelson2]

In the last fifteen years I have traveled to and from Houston, often driving U.S. 59 from Texarkana to Houston. That is a heavily traveled route down through East Texas and is being developed to evolve into Interstate 69. It goes through lots of small town right now, with travelers subject to slower speed limits and traffic lights. It also has many wide and long stretches that have 75 mph limits. Lots of truck traffic! I much prefer this route to Houston over going through Birmingham, then over through Mississippi to hit I-10 and across into Texas. And going through Birmingham all of the roads are interstate highways.

Edited April 21, 2023 by donNdonelson2
Spelling

[chc3]

As discussed occasionally, perhaps TNDOT should consider a toll roads authority. People in Orange County never imagined that they’d use a toll road, but in the late 90’s they built 4 and they’ve made life much more bearable for commuters from South OC to the Irvine/Newport Beach business centers and for going over the Santa Ana Mountains to the Inland Empire and the 91 Freeway which also has toll lanes out to Riverside.

https://www.thetollroads.com

Edited April 21, 2023 by chc3

[Luvemtall]

People get the wrong perspective of toll roads. Most think it’s just a way for government to control them more and take their money, like taxes. But they forget about the extra 100 dollars per month they spend on gas sitting in traffic. 

[MLBrumby]

6 minutes ago, chc3 said:

As discussed occasionally, perhaps TNDOT should consider a toll roads authority. People in Orange County never imagined that they’d use a toll road, but in the late 90’s they built 4 and they’ve made life much more bearable for commuters from South OC to the Irvine/Newport Beach business centers and for going over the Santa Ana Mountains to the Inland Empire and the 91 Freeway which also has toll lanes out to Riverside.

https://www.thetollroads.com

Interesting, as I've wondered how the risk-return on a completely new road would work.  I know new toll roads have been built, such as GA400 through Buckhead back in the early 1990s and the GHWB tollway in DFW, but those roadways had been laid out for decades before that and were state funded through (new in GA at the time) a tollway authority.

I wonder how TN setting up a tollway authority would complement or compete with a private road company. And does the new law specify ONLY lanes allowed to be built? I can see where a state authority would be necessary for any new routes laid out. I have thought a "tri county" tollway between Smyrna through Antioch to Brentwood would help that fast growing area. I've been on Bell Road/OHB at various times of day and it's always clogged.  Plus, it's very tough to get from I-24 over to Cool Springs at peak traffic times during a weekday.  There is a possible route that could follow roughly Sam Ridley to Burkitt Road to Liberty Pike, but it's likely not going to be available much longer with all the development going on there. I doubt the people in that area would tolerate a full-on expressway, but a parkway with "choice flyovers" at the worst intersections could help E-W traffic. I am aware that TDOT has a plan to widen TN96 from Franklin to M'boro, but that seems too far south to help the really nasty traffic around Smyrna and Antioch. 

[Luvemtall]

Just a idea, in order to save on R.O.W expensives and not tearing down any more neighborhoods. They can start with elevated levels above the current paths and have them as toll express lanes , sorta like what you see along I-75 around Atlanta 

[Bos2Nash]

[Luvemtall]

Man, I know your opinions about more lanes and car centric infrastructure. But that’s the way society as a whole sees things. I really like some of your ideas and those of others on this forum, but and I say this reluctantly, your not going to change the world and the way it’s viewed. So with a ever increasing population and growth that is rapidly moving, it’s time to make changes to meet the demands of said traffic woes. I would much rather see other forms of transit, but we all know that’s NOT going to happen anytime soon. If toll express lanes can be built, to help ease the congestion, and it can be done with minimal new R.O.W then bring it on. 

[downtownresident]

51 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Where in Texas is this proposal from? 

[Bos2Nash]

59 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

Man, I know your opinions about more lanes and car centric infrastructure. But that’s the way society as a whole sees things. I really like some of your ideas and those of others on this forum, but and I say this reluctantly, your not going to change the world and the way it’s viewed. So with a ever increasing population and growth that is rapidly moving, it’s time to make changes to meet the demands of said traffic woes. I would much rather see other forms of transit, but we all know that’s NOT going to happen anytime soon. If toll express lanes can be built, to help ease the congestion, and it can be done with minimal new R.O.W then bring it on. 

I posted this purely as a joke. I have a very realistic view on the roads and highways, but I do disagree with the notion of double decking any highways. You made a living on the roads, which has formed your opinions and there needs to be a middle ground. We cannot continue to build highways and think that will solve a congestion problem. We have had decades of experience that show us that that just does not work.

We have plenty of road space within the Briley/440 loop.  Hell, I would argue that Briley doe not even need to be expanded to three lanes from Ellington/I-65, but that is about the only area I see road expansion being acceptable. If folks want to make the choice to either make a living on the road or live far out and commute on the roads, that is a choice they are making. We subsidize the road/car industry soooo much. I just recently started commuting by bike because my new job does not subsidize my parking. I have always said one of the big drivers to other modes of transportation is the financial component and am living to that notion. More than car centric lifestyle, our society is driven by financial decisions. Make driving a car less financially beneficial and people will seek out other modes and thus demand other modes. There is a mentality that our cars give us freedom, but a very solid argument is showing just how much freedom is stolen by sitting in traffic for multiple hours every day. Gotta be willing to find that middle road. My meme above is people who are wanting to ignore finding that middle road.

I want to be clear though, Transit is not a congestion relief tool. It is a transportation equalizer that allows folks who otherwise could not afford to live close to the city AND own a car. It is financially driven for most people. 

44 minutes ago, downtownresident said:

Where in Texas is this proposal from? 

Wish I could say. All I did was google "one more lane meme" haha

[Luvemtall]

Yes I saw the humor in it, and yes I’ve spent a long  time traveling all over this country. I’ve said it before, I value your insight and opinions and that of everyone here . I’m a old goat, seen a bunch of life and I really don’t feel that the general population will give up their “ freedom “ of the automobile, no matter how financially hard it gets. I’ve been around to pay 50 cents for a gallon of premium gas, buy a brand new pickup for 1750.00 dollars and now I see 4.00 gallon gas and 90,000.00 pickups , but people are still buying them. It’s great to have a vision of a different world, with less cars , less smog , less cost, but I just don’t think it’s going to happen. 

[KJHburg]

5 hours ago, downtownresident said:

Where in Texas is this proposal from? 

Looks like Austin to  me as they are going to expand and redo I-35 through the downtown area which is congested almost all day long.  

[BnaBreaker]

2 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

Yes I saw the humor in it, and yes I’ve spent a long  time traveling all over this country. I’ve said it before, I value your insight and opinions and that of everyone here . I’m a old goat, seen a bunch of life and I really don’t feel that the general population will give up their “ freedom “ of the automobile, no matter how financially hard it gets. I’ve been around to pay 50 cents for a gallon of premium gas, buy a brand new pickup for 1750.00 dollars and now I see 4.00 gallon gas and 90,000.00 pickups , but people are still buying them. It’s great to have a vision of a different world, with less cars , less smog , less cost, but I just don’t think it’s going to happen. 

But see, that's the part that confuses me.  How does one see an expansion of transportation options as a reduction in freedom?  It makes no sense to me.  I mean I get the general notion that car ownership equals more freedom.  People like being able to explore and go where they want, when they want.  But what does that have to do with one's commute to work?  Everyone has a single destination when they're going to work.  It's not as if anyone is driving to work and then suddenly deciding to veer off course to go journey into the Mojave Desert in their Jeep.  But even if one wanted the option to do that on their commute, what does the addition of a train line, or whatever, have to do with anything?  Nobody is trying to force anyone to go without their car.  You don't want to take the train, don't take the train.  But from where I sit, anybody that claims to be a proponent of freedom of movement, shouldn't be a supporter of a system that more or less requires that everyone, regardless of age, or income, or physical ability, own and operate an automobile if they want to be a participant in society. 

[smeagolsfree]

Yea I think it was Austin too.  heard it was going to be something like 17 lanes of pure hell through the core of Austin. We think out legislature is off the rails!

[KJHburg]

9 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Yea I think it was Austin too.  heard it was going to be something like 17 lanes of pure hell through the core of Austin. We think out legislature is off the rails!

actually it is making it better.  removing the top deck lanes and sinking the whole highway adding toll express lanes and putting more caps and stitches over the new highway.   Some freeway caps and some expanded sidewalks and pedestrian bridges.  Austin has fought this for years but it has gotten so bad now even they are on board now. 

http://www.my35.org/capital-project-capital-express-central.htm

https://my35capex.com/projects/i-35-capital-express-central/

Like downtown Nashville it has lots of truck traffic coming from San Antonio and Mexico in the south to Dallas Fort Worth and beyond to the north.  

 

speaking of transportation locally I noticed I-65 seems to be better north of the city (well at least until it goes back to just 4 lanes) I did notice some widening up to the Kentucky state line where I-65 is 6 lanes all the way north.  I sure hope they are plans for where the current widening stops to connect to the wider path closer to the city.  The cut through the rock layers is wide enough to add another lane.   The splits still slow all the traffic down with all the lane switching.