The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Baronakim]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This study says TN should remove one of your major freeways downtown.  (the 2 on the NC list are likely to NEVER be removed nor should they as that is the view from NC DOT)

But I thought I share this even though I don't agree with it.   

https://southernurbanism.org/blog/southern-freeway-removal-phil-veasley

This all being said I will say it again there needs to be bypass from north of Nashville around the east side to connect with existing I-840 to get that through truck traffic out of the center city.   (and don't tell me it can't be done because of rock etc)  Make it toll to pay it off.  

I disagree. IMO one of the things that the 240 loop I think was key to Nashville's boom is the fact that it DEFINED and CONTAINED a finite area for expansion for decades.  Same with 440 which effectively limits the linear growth of West End and Charlotte,  Nashville never needed satilite city developments like in Atlantas.   I feel that a more effective solution is to extend 840 to I24 around Joelton distance.  Improving Briley Parkway to major interstate width.  A diversion off I65 weoul have to be much further North, say Portland and Gallatin distance.. I don' think a looping of 840 completely around the north side would ever work.  Disruption of the lakeside communities spread out would ne loudly protested.  The problem  really is the presence of two very large lakes.  As for making them toll, the only toll would be the bell of the death of use on them.  Tennesseans will not pay tols like our Yankee friends.  One of the really OLD ideas from the 50s and far cheaper would be to build a semi only road with a narrow right of way and only one or two exits into business arterials for trucks to serve nashville destinations.  We do not need to create morebusy car  interchanges where a bunch of fast food and motels spring up .  This principle worked fairly well  for the Turner McDonald Parkway in Atlanta getting commuters from northern counties downtown faster.  OUR problem is not so much commuters (especially with WFH these days)  but through city trucking.  A dedicated truck highway need not ne as expensive to build as a 10 lane expessway.  It doesen't work well even in California, certainly not here.

[MLBrumby]

I've concluded that TDOT is incapable of doing large projects like a "Big Dig" or even 3-laning an Interstate border-to-border (looking at I-65 and I-24).  IMO their biggest folly is a 1 mile stretch of I-75 north of Exit 11 (Ooltewah) where 4 lanes merge to 2, then after less than a mile it widens to 3 lanes for another 2 miles to go over White Oak Mountain.  It's so absurd that this was done less than 10 years ago and the 3-lane section up White Oak was there for the past 40 years. I've seen TXDOT do 5 level interchanges in less than 2 years without taking out any lanes. I saw GDOT do the Moreland Interchange 30 years ago in less than 3 years while both segments of I-85 were being rebuilt. I remember as a kid seeing I-85 being completely rebuilt above the original I-85 through midtown... and that was 40 years ago!!!!!  Georgia had 5 million people back then and a heckuva lot more geographic area with roads to build and maintain than TDOT has now with 7 million people.  The state of the federal Interstates through all the cities in TN is utterly embarrassing. I just saw a photo on social media someone posted of the NB lanes of I-65 at Melrose (south of I-440) where 6 lanes split (3 to go straight into dt... 2 to the I-440 ramp... AND THE MIDDLE "Lane Ends in 800 Feet"!!!!!!!  And the comments mocking TDOT were savage. I remember when TDOT actually used to have a decent reputation, but I'd bet they're in the bottom 10 of all state DOTs now. 

States where I regularly travel with "my" 5 best DOTs (for managing traffic during construction, planning for growth, maintenance, routing and alternates, etc.)

(starting with best) Texas, Kentucky, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina

5 Worst

(ending with worst) South Carolina, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana 

[KJHburg]

Here is what I can see happening in Nashville metro area.  If traffic continues to get worse going into central Nashville (Downtown Midtown etc) more businesses and new office users will continue to be attracted to the suburbs most notably Williamson County but other surrounding counties.  (as it will be easier to reverse commute)  Of course this could be changed with a meaningful transit corridors.    Something has to be done with the fact that all your interstates with their heavy truck traffic converge on downtown.  Okay upgrade Briley Parkway to an interstate with nice safe ramps onto 40 west not those cloverleaf out of date ramps.   I still believe the best solution is completing I-840 at least from east of Nashville at I-40 to I-65 north then it would connect to I-24 southeast and I-65 south.    And yes tolls will work.  People said the same thing about NC no one will pay a toll.  Well time is money for truckers, people getting to appointments and jobs so yes they will pay a toll.  People will always be against new freeways tollways etc.  Always.  But that does not mean they should not be built.  How good is it for your air quality to have multiple hours every day of trucks idling and inching along in your downtown area along with 1000s upon 1000s of cars?   That is not healthy for your air quality.  Nashville is smack down in the middle of major truck routes from the upper midwest Chicago to points south to Atlanta and Florida.  Sometime has to give or people and companies will look at your transportation system and look elsewhere.  Traffic congestion does affect people's quality of lives and yes all cities and urban areas have congestion but most have alternatives. 

I personally hate toll roads but the fact of the matter I will use them to save time here in NC, in Atlanta area and in Florida especially in the big cities.  FL and Texas have no income tax but extensive toll roads in all their urban areas.  

From Charlotte and 77 express lanes that are tolled:  https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2023-04-09/interstate-77-toll-revenue-jumped-nearly-70-in-last-year

I will be in Nashville in about a week and a half and I will see if the traffic has gotten better since my last visit last Fall.  I am not hopeful.  

and yes @MLBrumby I would rank TN and SC the worst in the southeast in terms of highways and upkeep.  

Edited April 11, 2023 by KJHburg

[Bos2Nash]

3 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

I agree that conversation and actions need to happen. Don’t agree fully that the inner loop goes away, and in your plan above where does I-40 reroute to? The inner loop would be a completely different animal , if as our friend KJHBurg mentioned a interstate connection from the East ( Lebanon) up across the North with connections to  major arteries and both I-65 and I-24 back to I-40 on the west ( Dickson) a northern completion of I-840 if you want to call it that. Traffic though Downtown on the inner loop is horrible, due to the large volume of unnecessary commercial truck traffic and folks just passing through. Yes I-840’s southern route is a good alternative for south and East/West travel, but does nothing for those going to the north. And if trucks are ever forced to use I-840 as Georgia does with I-285 around Atlanta, then just the southern route will not be enough to handle the volume or address those needing to head north. If the issue with just the pass though traffic is addressed, the difference for local traffic on the inner loop will surprise you all. The loop being in Downtown isn’t the problem, but I’m surely aware that in the current political climate those in the State House care nothing bout Nashville’s traffic woes. Every major city has interstates running though them, it’s basically the reason they became major cities. It’s the ones with the will to do something to help eliminate the vehicles that don’t really need to be passing through the inner city , that people will remember as a good place to move around in. 

In reality I don't think the I-40 Inner Loop will ever go away. I think a cap of the interstate is a much more realistic solution that would tie the city together.  As for re-routing traffic outside of the core, I would say We already have a northern loop in Briley Parkway. from I-40 up to I-65 it is very wide and could handle capacity, I think it is more the interchanges that would need improvement. Below is my idea for interstates around Nashville that I posted back in February of 2021. It would utilize Briley and I-440 as the bypasses and maintain I-24/I-65 through downtown. Whether I-40 is eliminated, or as I mentioned more realistically covered, is up to the growth of the city.   

On 2/3/2021 at 1:55 PM, Bos2Nash said:

I saw CityLab's post on instagram about this and considered posting about it. My mind also thought about which portion of highway could downtown remove effectively while maintaining certain vital connections. From an idealistic standpoint it would be great if we could remove the innerloop altogether and have 440 be the closest highway to the downtown core. That is unrealistic though. 

Here is my proposal based on the goal of dismantling our urban highways:

RED = Re-align and improve the 24/65 corridor that divides East Nashville from the East Bank. This was my first thought for a teardown, but if this stretch of freeway was to be removed, there isn't a ton of connections that can be re-created. Plus with developments such as River North, the redevelopment of the Truck Stop, Nissan Stadium Redevelopment and the future for PSC Metals, those will all be big money developments that will turn their back on the low income folks anyways.

Magenta = 440 and 40 become the same road and circulate around downtown to provie East/West connection. This would require a massive re-configuration of the 24/440/40 interchange along with Murfreesboro Road, but moving the East/West traffic out of downtown would be great.

BLUE = Removal of Interstate 65 extension. This provide the best chance to reconnect a decimated part of the city. North Nashville needs to have the street grid re-connected and those historic neighborhoods need to be woven back into the every day life of the city. The preferred route for drivers coming from the west and heading north would be to take Briley Parkway (see blue in second image).

GREEN = Removal of Interstate 65 from 440 to the Inner Loop. Redirect traffic east on 440/40 to connect to points north or east on 440/40 for points west. This will sow WeHo back together with the likes of Melrose and Edgehill.

CYAN = Removal of the inner loop entirely! There has been talk about the capping of this section, but that is unrealistic because the amount of ventilation and infrastructure that be needed (think Big Dig)

Obviously this would be a massive overhaul of our interstate system and would take someone an unfathomable amount of political power, but the benefits for our city - I think - would be tenfold. Sewing neighborhoods back together, expanding the plauisble footprint of our core and also remove alot of vehicle traffic out of the core. Not to mention the amount of land that could become available for actual taxable land that I'm sure the state would be able to solicit some big money for!

Here would would be an idea of what the core could look like with the inner loops whited out. Unrealistic in the grand scheme, but really not so far-fetched that it seems impossible.

 

 

[markhollin]

Connect downtown is a new initiative that seeks to improve mobility in the downtown core.  It is in its 3rd and final community engagement phase: 

• Key needs identified by the study include priority loading areas, transit priority corridors, mobility lanes, and traffic operations and congestion management strategies.
   
• Residents can provide input through the end of April via a new  Story Map linked to the project page.
   
• More than 3,700 public comments and survey responses have been recorded since the project kicked off last spring.
  
  https://www.nashville.gov/departments/transportation/plans-and-programs/downtown-traffic-project?utm_term=nashtoday&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=nashtoday&utm_content=nashtoday
  
  Provide input thru the "Story Map" here:
  
  https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/8617c5da7e514d4689fd0d00bffea618?utm_term=nashtoday&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=nashtoday&utm_content=nashtoday
  
  State of Downtown Mobility Report here:
  
  https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2022-11/Nashville_State_of_Downtown_Mobility_Report_FINAL_October2022.pdf?ct=1667405651&utm_term=nashtoday&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=nashtoday&utm_content=nashtoday

 

[smeagolsfree]

I really do not know why Metro bothers with these meetings as they will end up doing absolutely nothing in the long run. We have an outgoing mayor and not a clue as to who will be the incoming mayor and with no vision from a mayor that really gives a crap other than a bus system that does not work efficiently and can't get people to ride even if it is free, these meetings are a joke.

How many times have they had these types of meetings????

Until we have a mayor that is going to do something, then let's just save out energy and wait till we have someone with the vision because until we have a new mayor nothing is going to happen, and the next mayor is going to start the entire process over again.

Downtown is a mess and the only things you can really do is to eliminate on street parking, eliminate bike lanes on just a few streets, and a few other things, like sync the red lights for better traffic flow, enhanced pedestrian crosswalks in other areas, etc. They do not need input from the public to figure this out because the alternatives are limited as far as what they can do. The majority of pedestrians that are walking downtown are tourist and not locals!

[go_outside]

44 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I really do not know why Metro bothers with these meetings as they will end up doing absolutely nothing in the long run. We have an outgoing mayor and not a clue as to who will be the incoming mayor and with no vision from a mayor that really gives a crap other than a bus system that does not work efficiently and can't get people to ride even if it is free, these meetings are a joke.

How many times have they had these types of meetings????

Until we have a mayor that is going to do something, then let's just save out energy and wait till we have someone with the vision because until we have a new mayor nothing is going to happen, and the next mayor is going to start the entire process over again.

Downtown is a mess and the only things you can really do is to eliminate on street parking, eliminate bike lanes on just a few streets, and a few other things, like sync the red lights for better traffic flow, enhanced pedestrian crosswalks in other areas, etc. They do not need input from the public to figure this out because the alternatives are limited as far as what they can do. The majority of pedestrians that are walking downtown are tourist and not locals!

While I agree with your sentiment (too many meetings, not enough action), I think we should keep street parking wherever possible. Street parking is an excellent buffer between travel lanes and sidewalks; it's a key ingredient when it comes to making downtown feel pedestrian-friendly.

[Bos2Nash]

4 minutes ago, go_outside said:

While I agree with your sentiment (too many meetings, not enough action), I think we should keep street parking wherever possible. Street parking is an excellent buffer between travel lanes and sidewalks; it's a key ingredient when it comes to making downtown feel pedestrian-friendly.

I agree with this sentiment as well. I also think we need to be ADDING bike lanes to as many streets as possible - start with roads with multiple lanes and go from there. If we are removing street parking, than add bike lanes in their place.

[smeagolsfree]

Oh, I am not saying eliminate them, but those are the few options left for Metro other than going back to one-way streets or as William and I discussed reversable lanes. With narrow streets, your options are limited.

[Bark At The Sun]

New Donelson Interchange Bridges (median piers) at I40.       

 

[PaulChinetti]

48 minutes ago, Bark At The Sun said:

New Donelson Interchange Bridges (median piers) at I40.       

 

 

This is moving a lot faster than I thought it would. 

[donNdonelson2]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

This is moving a lot faster than I thought it would. 

I think the entire project was estimated to take about two years.

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update where it crosses over 11th Ave:

[colemangaines]

Vonlane, the luxury bus line out of Texas, is adding a route from Nashville to Memphis next month. I rode their Nashville to Atlanta route back in November and it was a fantastic experience, I'd recommend them to anybody travelling to Atlanta or Memphis. 

When Vonlane first announced their Nashville-Atlanta route expansion a few months ago, a lot of people were wondering if they would continue expanding outward from an Atlanta hub or a Nashville hub. This Memphis route definitely points towards them establishing Nashville as their next hub, which could mean future routes to mid-distance cities like St. Louis, Knoxville, Louisville, Cincinnati, or Lexington.

[markhollin]

Murfreesboro's plans for Cherry Lane extension to I-840 covered at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/videos/news/2023/04/18/murfreesboro-government-seeks-start-cherry-lane-extension-2025/11690847002/

[KJHburg]

Your interstate highways split really cause your bottlenecks due to massive lane switching.  I know I am a broken record on this but this can all be fixed especially if there is no will for a beltway around to the north side of the metro area.  Either complete I-840 north of the city to 65 N and 24 West or upgrade Briley Parkway to a full interstate highway to remove all this through traffic out of the central city.  Or rebuild all these converging interstates downtown.  (the last option is probably the most expensive) 

[Luvemtall]

KJHBURG, I’m with you 100% !! Been preaching on this since I joined the forum, I spent decades has a professional commercial driver and drove in 95% of the lower 48. I’m shocked that these interchanges were even conceived, let alone never approved upon!! And the damn rock outcrops are just plain dangerous,( no clear line of sight of merging traffic,etc)  why the hell they just didn’t level it all out BEFORE they built is mind boggling . That is until you live here a while, and realize who we’re dealing with. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Luvemtall

[smeagolsfree]

I think we could raise money for you to go make a raising hell speech in front of the state legislature for all the good it would do. They would just argue the money would be better spent in Johnson County in the mountains where the population is only 18k cause those people need a kazoo factory.

[Luvemtall]

2 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I think we could raise money for you to go make a raising hell speech in front of the state legislature for all the good it would do. They would just argue the money would be better spent in Johnson County in the mountains where the population is only 18k cause those people need a kazoo factory.

They would just turn off my microphone 

[Bos2Nash]

Hey hey hey, we are getting braid ramps at some of these intersections and losing some exits close to the interchanges that create a ton of chaos. The state is making progress, right?

Note - read all of that in a sarcastic tone to truly appreciate my sentiments lol

[PaulChinetti]

Where 65 and 24 meet going North always gets me. People see the Trinity lane exit sign on the overpass and lose their ever loving mind trying to get across. If the state would remove that overpass sign I swear it would get rid of like 30% of the traffic at the merge. 

[erdichia]

15 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Your interstate highways split really cause your bottlenecks due to massive lane switching.  I know I am a broken record on this but this can all be fixed especially if there is no will for a beltway around to the north side of the metro area.  Either complete I-840 north of the city to 65 N and 24 West or upgrade Briley Parkway to a full interstate highway to remove all this through traffic out of the central city.  Or rebuild all these converging interstates downtown.  (the last option is probably the most expensive)

 

If they added a few miles to the east side of 440 they could connect it to Briley Parkway and create a loop around the city. No clue why no one is pushing for this.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by erdichia

[PaulChinetti]

That could help that disaster of an interchange that is 440,24, and 40. That thing takes up over 100 acres which is a travesty in itself.

[Bos2Nash]

IMO, The idea of building any new interstates is a non-starter. If we need to "add capacity" to certain existing ones to create effective bypasses, sure widen selective ones. Briley should really be the northern bypass and 440 should be the inner southern one with 840 being the outer bypass. But the idea of cutting through neighborhoods again is archaic thinking to me. We have learned the serious damage that interstates do when cutting through neighborhoods, no need to go back to do it all over again.

The 440/I-24/I-40 interchange needs to be re-designed and improved. Honestly, one of the best things for that would be to eliminate the connection to Murfreesboro Road. Maybe keep the exit on the northbound side. An on ramp on the northbound side would be okay, but only to go east on I-40. That would hypothetically clean soooo much up right here. We don't need the southbound side to connect to MR because that could be re-routed through the Fesslers exit, and the westbound on I-40 traffic could route through Spence Lane. 

[MLBrumby]

Does anyone know if the very expensive SMART project on I-24 to M'boro has made any difference?  I have been skeptical of it since I first heard about it. So wondering how it's working.