The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

5 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

I just don’t get the lack of a Louisville link in their plans. Makes me wonder if there’s not some grandfathered prohibition by the old L&N (now CSX), as that’s a well traveled freight route. 

Agreed---especially because that would create the final link between Chicago and Atlanta (and on down to FLA).  Seems like a no-brainer. 

[BnaBreaker]

3 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

I just don’t get the lack of a Louisville link in their plans. Makes me wonder if there’s not some grandfathered prohibition by the old L&N (now CSX), as that’s a well traveled freight route. 

Same here.  It's a really bizarre omission to me, not even because of Nashville necessarily, but because it would be the direct link between The Great Lakes cities and Atlanta/Florida that has been sorely lacking this whole time.  

EDIT: Just seeing Mark made the same point above.   Let me rephrase that then.... ^What he said!  

Edited May 2 by BnaBreaker

[andywildman]

There's no ban or prohibition on it. But it's not a priority for Amtrak's shorter routes (which include Nashville-to-Atlanta and Nashville-to-Memphis).

Amtrak's long-distance studies are looking at those bigger routes that will require Nashville-to-Louisville connections.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/fra-releases-long-distance-study-interim-report-invites-comments/

[PaulChinetti]

Nashville to Chicago would seem like a bigger concern to me than Nashville to Memphis.

Unless they are going for interstate connectivity but then why leave Knoxville out

[colemangaines]

The youtuber CityNerd did a video about rail suitability for city pairs a few months ago. His methodology was a little bare, he only used the populations of the metro areas at each end and then divided by the travel time between them. So any extra factors like economic or cultural connections between cities wouldn't show up. Anyway, here's the map he made of the 56 highest weighted city pairs for rail connections in North America.

 

Here's an example of the calculation he did for each city pair:

 

Long story short, I think Nashville has a ton of great rail pairing opportunities with nearby cities (Atlanta, Chattanooga, Memphis, Louisville, Knoxville, Huntsville, etc.) but there's just so many great potential routes elsewhere in the country for Amtrak/Brightline/whoever to focus on right now.

 

[markhollin]

Crestmoor Rd. Glen Echo Rd, realignment at Hillsboro Pike intersection update: not much change in last month.

Looking west from Hillsboro Pike, just north of Glen Echo Rd:

[nashville born]

If you haven't seen it, good recap of a recent vist to Nashville was left on the Bits and Pieces string by Nashmoney.  The recap mentions how coworkers making their first visit to town were very pleased overall, yet commented on the lack of mass transit.

I keep reading debates about BRT lines and dedicated lanes.  How are either of those realistically EVER going to work in Nashville????  To me, both those options are like shuffling chairs on the Titanic.  I don't care which chair you pick, you're going down.    I was there in March and the traffic was horrible period.  Rush hour or not, just horrible.  I distinctly remember driving ftom downtown to get to I-24 south and thinking, these lanes and interchanges look exactly the same from when I left Nashville THIRTY YEARS AGO.   That is just incredible to me.  And the state of disrepair with potholes and gravel and litter about was sad.  How can we ever be ready for our closeup with Mr. DeMille like this???

Nashville needs REAL mass transit...yesterday.

 

[smeagolsfree]

This is an opinion article in the Tennessean and not being a Davidson County resident it is not my place to respond to this fool, but maybe one of you good people should. This guy is so off base and ill-informed it is laughable. I wonder if he has even read the plan.  He talks about the busses in Bellevue being empty. Well, if the good folks in Bellevue had higher ridership they would be included in a plan. It also does not help that the TN editorializes his piece further with their cheesy sub headlines. This guy needs to realize that the majority of the traffic coming onto Nashville on the interstate s is from out of County. That is up to the State to fix and not Metro.

Electric busses are a huge investment and would add a lot of cost to the plan. A fleet of Electric busses to replace the current fleet would at least 200 million not to mention the infrastructure involved.

This is just for starters. I am sure you guys could go in and shred him a new one.

He also thinks that the downtown resident are the only ones that will benefit from the transit plan. What planet does this guy live on. I am going to copy and paste the entire letter as it should not be a copyright issue as it is a letter to the editor.

Nashville transit: $3.1 billion plan needs tweaks before I vote for it (tennessean.com)

Steve Jones

Letter to the editor

Mayor Freddie O'Connell is attempting to fix a problem that has plagued Nashville for years: traffic and congestion.

Adding sidewalks and using technology for upgrading traffic lights is a step in the right direction. Updating and adding buses in theory should help tremendously.

Where I am confused is the mayor’s vision centers riding the bus.

How is this going to help the car traffic on the side roads and interstates? Will not taking away lanes for dedicated bus routes not add to the problem?

The white elephant in the room is the downtown area. All interstates go through downtown. We keep promoting an area that is overbuilt. Oracle is building a 70-acre campus, we are building a multibillion-dollar football stadium and even new shops and housing.

 

You can’t even drive in this area as it is now. Parking is a nightmare and unaffordable. Nashville needs to expand where they build and not have everything downtown. Nashville has and continues to ignore all commonsense approaches to addressing the problem with congestion and traffic. Now we as a city are being asked to spend billions of dollars to force a round peg in a square hole.

 Many people have suggested smaller buses and I agree. In the Bellevue area the larger buses only have a handful of riders. With the price of fuel continuing to rise this should be addressed.

Are the new buses going to be electric and if so has a long term cost analyst been run for maintenance? New mechanics, equipment and buildings for upkeep will be needed. The traffic coming into Nashville on the highways is not being addressed, neighborhoods where you can't drive card down streets because of being overbuilt is being ignored. I just don't see how this will solve the Nashville traffic chaos.

I cannot support a $3 billion dollar investment as it is presently written.

More time and input needs to be given to make such a lasting decision. I do believe Mayor O'Connell is heading the right direction but we must not be rushed by the upcoming election.

Solve all of Nashville residents traffic problems not just downtown residents and employees.

 Steve Jones, Nashville 37221

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, nashville born said:

And the state of disrepair with potholes and gravel

The city definitely hasn't caught up from the winter, especially with the rainy spring we've had so far. 

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

This is an opinion article in the Tennessean and not being a Davidson County resident it is not my place to respond to this fool, but maybe one of you good people should. This guy is so off base and ill-informed it is laughable. I wonder if he has even read the plan.  He talks about the busses in Bellevue being empty. Well, if the good folks in Bellevue had higher ridership they would be included in a plan. It also does not help that the TN editorializes his piece further with their cheesy sub headlines. This guy needs to realize that the majority of the traffic coming onto Nashville on the interstate s is from out of County. That is up to the State to fix and not Metro.

Electric busses are a huge investment and would add a lot of cost to the plan. A fleet of Electric busses to replace the current fleet would at least 200 million not to mention the infrastructure involved.

This is just for starters. I am sure you guys could go in and shred him a new one.

He also thinks that the downtown resident are the only ones that will benefit from the transit plan. What planet does this guy live on. I am going to copy and paste the entire letter as it should not be a copyright issue as it is a letter to the editor.

Nashville transit: $3.1 billion plan needs tweaks before I vote for it (tennessean.com)

Steve Jones

Letter to the editor

Mayor Freddie O'Connell is attempting to fix a problem that has plagued Nashville for years: traffic and congestion.

Adding sidewalks and using technology for upgrading traffic lights is a step in the right direction. Updating and adding buses in theory should help tremendously.

Where I am confused is the mayor’s vision centers riding the bus.

How is this going to help the car traffic on the side roads and interstates? Will not taking away lanes for dedicated bus routes not add to the problem?

The white elephant in the room is the downtown area. All interstates go through downtown. We keep promoting an area that is overbuilt. Oracle is building a 70-acre campus, we are building a multibillion-dollar football stadium and even new shops and housing.

 

You can’t even drive in this area as it is now. Parking is a nightmare and unaffordable. Nashville needs to expand where they build and not have everything downtown. Nashville has and continues to ignore all commonsense approaches to addressing the problem with congestion and traffic. Now we as a city are being asked to spend billions of dollars to force a round peg in a square hole.

 Many people have suggested smaller buses and I agree. In the Bellevue area the larger buses only have a handful of riders. With the price of fuel continuing to rise this should be addressed.

Are the new buses going to be electric and if so has a long term cost analyst been run for maintenance? New mechanics, equipment and buildings for upkeep will be needed. The traffic coming into Nashville on the highways is not being addressed, neighborhoods where you can't drive card down streets because of being overbuilt is being ignored. I just don't see how this will solve the Nashville traffic chaos.

I cannot support a $3 billion dollar investment as it is presently written.

More time and input needs to be given to make such a lasting decision. I do believe Mayor O'Connell is heading the right direction but we must not be rushed by the upcoming election.

Solve all of Nashville residents traffic problems not just downtown residents and employees.

 Steve Jones, Nashville 37221

I think his zip sums up his feelings, and I imagine nothing would change them. 

That is has to be one of the most card dependent zip codes in the entire county?

[MLBrumby]

I wrote a letter to the mayor about 3 months ago containing the points I've listed here at least a couple times before: Nashville has approximately a dozen disconnected streets between downtown and outer areas that (IMHO) are the best candidates for dedicated lanes for transit by connecting them. I won't repeat myself here, but suffice it to say these new transit lanes would not use existing arteries into the core (they would add to the mix) and avoid state highways, which I've learned from this board and elsewhere are off-limits for and robust future transit infrastructure. Anyway, as a non-resident who's watching things there with a great deal of interest, I put in my $.02. 

[Bos2Nash]

My letter response would be way more than 250 words haha. I may write back thought.

My wife and I have a similar conversation though. There are a couple stereotypes that this referendum - and transit as a whole - need to tackle head on.

1. Transit does not equal congestion/traffic relief! In the grand reality, it actually will increase congestion in certain areas in the short and long term. When we talk about taking away SOV lanes for bus lanes there is the construction of said lanes and then there is the fact that more cars will back up more in certain places. The long, long term solution is more people ride the bus, but the bus needs to prove itself to folks. Specifically the Metro buses, I don't care if out-of-county, express bus riders sit in traffic.
2. The bus itself needs to kick its stereotype. Folks like the XPLR Nashville page continually harp on "buses are dated technology" or other comments like "why would I ride the bus?" The bus needs a PR move that breaks its own stereotypes. I try to ask this question when folks challenge the use of buses instead of rail - What makes a train better than a bus?
   1. The people who ride the main line of the bus network will also ride the trains
   2. Buses are actually MORE flexible than trains
   3. Trains are something like 5x to 10x more expensive than buses
   4. This is an interesting take on buses for the MBTA and an advocacy group called TransitMatters, https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6b0KE_u8x9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

The "All Access Corridors" will be an important aspect of this referendum, but unfortunately Metro needs to be careful about overpromising too many dedicated lanes due to the political climate and the control of many of our main corridors. 

I think the biggest challenge that folks aren't understanding is this is a Davidson County transit system. The economies rail really do not work out until you get to a more regional system. This current topic is not supposed to be looking regional. This referendum is working on getting us the dedicated funding for the Davidson County transit funding. Out-of-County residents are not voting or paying for this specific system, so those interstate travelers can pound sand. I will say though, this kind of referendum amplifies the challenges of the county-wide government.

[markhollin]

One of the fiercest critics of Nashville's previous attempt at expanding mass transit will not oppose the plan Mayor Freddie O'Connell has crafted.

Not only that, the organization actually had nice things to say.

The Tennessee chapter of Americans for Prosperity, a group funded by the conservative billionaire Koch family, made its position on O'Connell's transit plan known on May 2. The group financed much of the opposition to a 2018 transit plan by then-Mayor Megan Barry and mounted a door-to-door voter outreach effort. That roughly $9 billion plan, which called for almost 30 miles of light rail and a tunnel under downtown, failed by a nearly two-to-one margin at the polls.

By contrast, O'Connell's plan avoids rail entirely. His proposal would cost $3.1 billion to fully build today. It includes what's poised to be several dozen miles of rapid-bus service, with buses traveling in dedicated lanes, as well as extensive sidewalk construction, more bike lanes and upgrades to traffic lights.

In a statement, Americans for Prosperity's state director, Tori Venable, took a hands-off posture, noting the "more reasonable" price tag of O'Connell's plan. The mayor will be asking voters to raise sales taxes by half a percentage point, to 9.75%, to supply the city's first-ever dedicated transit funding.

"It's up to his office to make the case for a higher sales tax to fund more bus services, improved lights and better city crosswalks," Venable said. "Ultimately, Nashville will decide if the transit services and improvements are worth the tax hike."

In an interview with the Nashville Banner, Venable went even further.

"There’s a lot of actually good improvements in there," she said. The Banner reported that she specifically highlighted sidewalks, safety improvements and "a focus on buses rather than fixed-route trains." The Banner reported she was skeptical of a few pieces of the plan, including the potential dedicated lanes just for buses.

Notably, Venable said O'Connell sought out a conversation about the plan — which she called "a pleasant surprise."

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/05/03/koch-backed-americans-for-prosperity-transit-metro.html

[Luvemtall]

I always say that we should strive to “think out of the box” in design and development, but it’s becoming apparent to me that a lot of folks around here , like Steve Jones in Smeags post above simply can’t. And it’s surprising how many are misinformed and/or uneducated about what an urban environment actually is, like Mr Jones talking about the core being “overbuilt “ when we still have upteen surface parking lots . He suggests that they spread out the development that called suburbs MrJones. Mayor Barry’s Transit plan was just to “outside the box” and forward thinking for people to grasp, Mayor O’Connell’s Transit Plan has buses at it core which is something familiar to people that they can relate too. Nashville is growing up fast and is getting more Urbanized, but oh so many can’t understand what that entails. They seem to want just a bigger version of Franklin.

[markhollin]

'The golden opportunity': Developers double down on future transit hotspots:

Nashville’s transit referendum won’t be voted on until November, but developers are already doubling down on its potential.

“As soon as [developers] hear these little fairytales that there's going to potentially be a transit referendum, and it's going to be on these corridors. Guess what — every developer is now looking at Nolensville, Murfreesboro, Gallatin, Dickerson, Clarksville and West End,” says Evan Holladay, CEO of development firm Holladay Ventures.

“Every single landowner or business owner on those corridors is getting calls today. … It's happening already, and the transit referendum hasn't been passed.”

The “golden opportunity" in Nashville’s transit plan is not transit, according to Holladay.

“If we have transit centers, if we have bus rapid engine lines, those all-access corridors, that's where a lot more developers are going to be looking because they know that there's going to be billions of dollars invested in those areas, and that's where people are going to be moving to. Jobs are going to be moving. Parks are going to be there. Every single service or opportunity is going to go there,” Holladay said.

Affordable housing development will be key on the five “all-access corridors.”

“That’s really where we try to focus in on our affordable housing developments and our mixed-use developments because we know that that's where the opportunities are," Holladay said. "They're there today, and they will be there tenfold if we have focused mass transit on those corridors.”

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/05/09/developers-transit-referendum-housing-projects.html

[markhollin]

Great Circle Rd. in SE portion of MetroCenter has new surfacing and dedicated bike lines on both sides heading towards Cumberland River Greenway:
 

[chc3]

14 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Great Circle Rd. in SE portion of MetroCenter has new surfacing and dedicated bike lines on both sides heading towards Cumberland River Greenway:
 

That was greatly needed!

[markhollin]

North Nashville WeGo Transit Center update.

Looking west from Clarksville Pike, 1/2 block east of 26th Ave. North:

Looking SE from Clarksville Pike at 26th Av
e. North:

Several angles from along 26th Ave. North, south of Clarksville Pike:

[markhollin]

Nashville transit plan supporters launch campaigns.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2024/05/12/nashville-transit-plan-mayor-freddie-oconnell-support-campaigns-launch/73589634007/?utm_source=tennessean-dailybriefing-strada&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailybriefing-greeting&utm_term=newsletter-greeting&utm_content=pnas-nashville-nletter65

[Bos2Nash]

Interesting article about what the "gold standard" for BRT actually is in the world. Shouldn't surprise anyone that not a single US city has a "gold" rated BRT system. Silver is the highest ranking any US cities received and that was in Hartford and Cleveland. 6 other cities received “bronze” or “basic” rankings. 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2024/05/13/the-definition-of-great-brt-is-changing-fast-and-most-of-the-u-s-isnt-measuring-up

Images from the article:

The big shocker to me is we should be looking toward our neighbors to the south (rather than Europe) for successful bus systems.  While the best BRT system was classified in Pakistan, Clearly Central and South America have figured this whole "bus" thing out.

[Luvemtall]

two takeaways from above post, I’m not at all surprised that Hartford (although not Gold, and still could improve) is high on the list . I posted about my recent trip to Connecticut, and how I found that even in cities with only 50,000 +/- had impressive transit options with buses leading the way. Second , this is proof that infrastructure ( not necessarily for automobiles) is the most valuable asset for any municipalities to have. You can have all the shiny buildings and fancy things possible, but without proper infrastructure it’s all mute.

[go_outside]

14 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

The big shocker to me is we should be looking toward our neighbors to the south (rather than Europe) for successful bus systems.  While the best BRT system was classified in Pakistan, Clearly Central and South America have figured this whole "bus" thing out.

This is a great point. Many Americans fawn over European transit, but our urban development patterns are much closer to cities in the Global South. What I wouldn't give to have a BRT and gondola(!) system like Bogota.

Edited Wednesday at 01:27 PM by go_outside

[AsianintheNations]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:08 PM, markhollin said:

Nashville transit plan supporters launch campaigns.

I am concerned that it is very difficult to find information about the transit plan (for the layperson, I know there's plenty that has been posted in these forums - just googling for regular search terms like Nashville transit plan comes up with a few news articles and a bunch of websites about the 2018 plan, not the actual 2024 plan details or that PDF). Also hard to find ways to support the plan. Nothing about yard signs, which council members are supporting it, etc. Hope things ramp up soon before the opposition does...

[smeagolsfree]

I would voice concerns to the mayor's office. Maybe that will get the ball in the right court.

[PaulChinetti]

O’Connell just had his first state of the Metro address (literally in front of a bus). I suspect all that will start ramping up soon. 

https://nashvillebanner.com/2024/05/14/nashville-state-of-metro-address-oconnell/

[Luvemtall]

My 34 year old son, is considering a new position within his corporate portfolio. He lives here in the ‘Boro , and had an interview Downtown at the location his new position will be located. So he decided that he would take the 84 bus and feel it out as he would be interested to use it on a daily basis to commute ( he feels that we all need to do our part, and I agree) . He said it was very comfortable , being that it’s a coach style bus instead of an intercity bus. But he did mention that he believes that increasing the number and frequency would be a big factor in his decision. If he can plan his day to coincide with the timing of the route, he will definitely use this opportunity. I have mentioned many times, that a regional transit system is a must have to make any kind of impact to improve the overall traffic conditions that currently exist , and  we know are just going to get worse with the influx of people moving into the area. Rail is just to far fetched for most to even remotely understand, so buses seem to be the logical solution for the time being. And also from a cost perspective, buses seem to be able to fit within the budget constraints. The State , including TDOT needs to get their priorities straight and start a plan to improve the infrastructure and transit needs of the Region. It’s not just building Choice Lanes and Smart Corridors that are needed, it’s reliable , affordable , frequent access to public transportation.