The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Nashville Cliff]

20 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Freddie O'Connell

https://www.readyforfreddie.com/issues

Heidi Campbell

https://www.voteheidicampbell.com/_files/ugd/cb5360_d4c5fb90761640e8826e8abca8633021.pdf

Jeff Yarboro

https://www.jeffyarbro.com/issues/

None seem to have a specific plan set out anywhere. Freddie and Heidi talk the most about it and have some specifics. 

I think I heard or read somewhere that there is going to be a transit based forum with the candidates at some point but I can't find it now. Has anyone else seen that?

And Matt Wiltshire:

Transit and Infrastructure

Nashville has been making transit and infrastructure plans for years. And in that time, traffic has gotten worse. 1,200 of our bus stops still lack shelters. And a recent survey ranked our transit system among the least used in the nation. Nashvillians are ready to move from plans to action, and Matt is the strong leader who can make that happen.

Nashville has fallen behind our peer cities when it comes to public transportation. In fact, we’re the last city of our size without dedicated funding for transit. In the long-term, finding a source of sustainable funding will be key, and Matt will work with advocates to determine the optimal time to go to voters. In the short-term, Matt will prioritize transit projects that help build a culture of mass transit, along with investments that offer better service to current riders and help bring in new ones.

Build gold-standard mass transit along Murfreesboro Pike to the airport

Before the end of the year, Matt will prioritize and accelerate the process to bring dedicated-lane mass transit to Murfreesboro Pike along a route that connects downtown to the airport. And because Matt knows that transit and affordable housing go hand in hand, he will lead efforts to put affordable housing options near the transit stops along that route. That way, workers can get to jobs downtown or out to the airport, which is a large employer, without getting stuck in traffic or having to pay up to $40 for parking.

Carrying 4,000 people a day, the Murfreesboro Pike route boasts WeGo’s highest daily ridership. Building a premium transit line here will pull traffic off the interstate and help build a culture of mass-transit in Nashville. This project, which the airport can help pay for, has been included in Nashville’s transit plans for years. Matt will move beyond planning and start building. This project is well-positioned to receive funding for up to 70% of the cost from the federal government and the Airport Authority can pay for all of the infrastructure from the airport to the first transit stop. The remaining cost for Metro government is well within the city’s existing financial capacity.

Provide more buses, more often, along with better transit centers in more places

Matt will bring Nashvillians the bus system they deserve. With more buses running more hours each day, riders’ commute times will be shorter. Increased crosstown bus routes will mean they are able to reach their destination without having to transfer downtown. And new neighborhood transit centers with upgraded bus stops will improve riders’ overall experience and help spur transit-oriented development.

WeGo has been pushing to upgrade our bus system for years, but plans have faltered under a lack of funding. As Mayor, Matt will lead the way – and direct the resources – to move from plans to action.

[Nashville Cliff]

4 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Cliff, I respect your efforts and thank you for your service. I hope you are correct as you have a feel for what may be going on in the legislature better than any of us. As we both know that can change every two years when we get a new group of buffoons in office. I do think there is needed rail service between Nashville and Knoxville to connect the rest of Upper E TN to Middle TN. That is a huge missing tooth. Trying to pry folks away from their cars is about as hard as it would be to pry them away from their guns. Both are attached at their hips. I also think once people see the cost and time involved in taking rail to a destination it may be a hard sale. It will be a mindset change. As long as the rail is affordable it may have a decent chance if it is done like some of the rail in Florida.

I do not have to worry because it will never happen in my lifetime unless I live to be 90 and you guys will have to help me to the toilet if you take me on a train excursion. Then you will probably lock me in there and leave me as punishment!

 

Ron, thanks.  Problem with Nashville to Knoxville is that there isn't an existing, live freight line, which means the state would have to lay a lot of new track over very difficult terrain.

[rookzie]

14 hours ago, Nashville Cliff said:

…

There is actually bipartisan support for passenger rail, so I would put the odds a bit higher. Still, a lot of work to do before we see any new intercity routes in Tennessee.

 

13 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Cliff, I respect your efforts and thank you for your service. I hope you are correct as you have a feel for what may be going on in the legislature better than any of us. As we both know that can change every two years when we get a new group of buffoons in office.

…

I do not have to worry because it will never happen in my lifetime unless I live to be 90 and you guys will have to help me to the toilet if you take me on a train excursion. Then you will probably lock me in there and leave me as punishment!

 

I believe the excerpt referred to by newschannel9  from the report issued by theTennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations (TACIR) mentions that the “Tier-1” priority Nashville-Chattanooga-ATL route would enable connectivity with multiple long-distance passenger rail routes in Atlanta:

“…Nashville and Atlanta, this route would also connect to the greater Amtrak network as several long-distance routes pass through Atlanta to destinations such as New York City and New Orleans.”

Not to quibble, but the reference is misleading.  True, Nashville-ATL indeed had been determined a viable passenger rail route, but the New York - NOLA destinations constitute only a single long-distance route — known as the Amtrak “Crescent” train 19 (southbound), 20 (northbound).  No other passenger rail currently serves Atlanta, which used to host a number of options during the early and mid 1960s.  Nashville-ATL is a great start, but my hope is that the Georgia legislature — which shares some of the same intransigence and transit-apathy as TN does — finally will push for an ATL-Savannah corridor.   I believe such a route has been formally submitted to the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) Corridor ID program, a requirement for all proposed expansion routes.

An ATL-Savannah mini-corridor also has been determined as viable and popular.  The last service between those points was the Central of Georgia Railway’s “Nancy Hanks”, discontinued 1971.  With Atlanta serving as a hub and with a new and much more accommodating terminal (replacing the current Peachtree Station), a Nashville-ATL route, in conjunction with the proposed ATL-Savannah line could connect with three existing long-distance routes — not only with the “Crescent”, but also the “Silver Star” (NY - DC - Richmond - Raleigh - JAX - Orlando - Tampa - MIA) and the “Silver Meteor” (same except via Fayetteville NC instead of Raleigh; and not Tampa).

I’ve ridden all three of those routes in their entirety more than once.  The key to value-added connectivity in the long-term is to identify and to collaborate with both federal and state officials among neighboring states to transcend the severe constraints of limited connectivity at points like Chicago, DC, and NY.

Edited July 12, 2023 by rookzie
mismatched typeset; "Silver Star" and "Silver Meteor"

[drewbert]

Nashville Banner has statements on transit from the candidates:

https://nashvillebanner.com/2023/06/12/at-issue-transit/

[Sean blackdog]

Today this evening. 
 

Continue working on Broadway Bridge.
Holy Smokes. 

[PaulChinetti]

32 minutes ago, Sean blackdog said:

Today this evening. 

With how fast I-95 was rebuilt they are really stretching this one out haha. 

[MLBrumby]

Admittedly, I know nothing about rail travel, but I'd likely use it if it were speedy and reliable. My current threshold for air-vs-driving is to fly for anything over 6 hours (especially when the 2 hours precheck is accounted for). 

I find it interesting that Tennessee is actually more central to the predominant traffic directions (i.e. it's more of a crossroads than Atlanta) to many routes today, but the state's lack of leadership on this matter probably will (again) cede being a potential hub to Atlanta. I realize the state has virtually nothing in passenger rail infrastructure.  Granted the mountains made railroad networks more difficult to build in the 1800s and Tennessee lacked significant E-W routes, but the NE/SW orientation of the Appalachians would accommodate new lines to connect to Virginia, which is the southern terminus of the Acela corridor.  I'd even guess that NY-TX routes would be just as commerically viable as the NY-NO and possibly NY-FL too. I think a route from Nashville to Dallas (as a hub to Houston, Austin/SA and OKC) would be a key link. Last I checked on those Amtrak maps, there seems to be a preponderance of N-S routes, but limited E-W routes. 

TL:DR.... Nashville is more centrally located than Atlanta for many routes, but I expect TN leaders will let the opportunity pass.

[andywildman]

58 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Admittedly, I know nothing about rail travel, but I'd likely use it if it were speedy and reliable. My current threshold for air-vs-driving is to fly for anything over 6 hours (especially when the 2 hours precheck is accounted for). 

I find it interesting that Tennessee is actually more central to the predominant traffic directions (i.e. it's more of a crossroads than Atlanta) to many routes today, but the state's lack of leadership on this matter probably will (again) cede being a potential hub to Atlanta. I realize the state has virtually nothing in passenger rail infrastructure.  Granted the mountains made railroad networks more difficult to build in the 1800s and Tennessee lacked significant E-W routes, but the NE/SW orientation of the Appalachians would accommodate new lines to connect to Virginia, which is the southern terminus of the Acela corridor.  I'd even guess that NY-TX routes would be just as commerically viable as the NY-NO and possibly NY-FL too. I think a route from Nashville to Dallas (as a hub to Houston, Austin/SA and OKC) would be a key link. Last I checked on those Amtrak maps, there seems to be a preponderance of N-S routes, but limited E-W routes. 

TL:DR.... Nashville is more centrally located than Atlanta for many routes, but I expect TN leaders will let the opportunity pass.

The mountains make this far more expensive than would ever be feasible with Tennessee's relative auto dependency, but "higher speed" rail (like the ~110mph that Amtrak runs in Illinois now) would be the killer ingredient for Nashville as a train destination to Louisville, Indy, Cincy to the north, Memphis & St. Louis to the West, Birmingham & Atlanta to the South, and Chattanooga and Knoxville to the East.

[PaulChinetti]

Seems like with all the interstate right away this country already has running rail on that takes care of the land problem at least right??

Is rail on the ground more expensive than elevated? Is there anywhere to read about the pros/cons of each?

[Nathan_in_DC]

10 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Seems like with all the interstate right away this country already has running rail on that takes care of the land problem at least right??

Is rail on the ground more expensive than elevated? Is there anywhere to read about the pros/cons of each?

The big problem is grades, especially going across the Cumberland Plateau. The ROW for I-40 between Kingston and Crossville would be extremely challenging to incorporate a rail line through due to the steep grades involved. It would have to involve significant tunneling to even begin to be feasible, and would have to be aligned in such a way that it came off the Plateau near a suitable river crossing, too. Unless the State and Federal government are willing to pay the literally billions of dollars it will take to have tunnels that would make the Swiss proud, we won't see a rail line following I-40 between Nashville and Knoxville any time soon, which is extremely unfortunate. I think that if it were built to a standard allowing moderately high speeds and relatively high frequencies (I'm thinking at least 5 round trips per day) it would be a hugely successful route. Distance and time wise it's right in that sweet spot for rail travel...long enough to be annoying to drive, but too short to justify flying.

Regarding elevated vs. ground, almost always elevated is going to be more expensive due to the increased infrastructure costs, and it is generally only used when other options aren't feasible.  There are plenty of places where viaducts across valleys or elevated rails through cities make real sense, but putting rails on the ground makes much more sense most of the time. 

I do wish they'd complete a Chattanooga-Knoxville-Bristol connection, which could then extend up the Shenandoah Valley towards Harrisonburg and Winchester and then cut across northern Virginia to DC. That'd not only be a beautiful ride, but I imagine it'd be an extremely popular route and would be a huge boon for the medium sized towns and cities like Morristown, Abingdon, and Wytheville.

[smeagolsfree]

As far as the mayoral candidates go, I have not really seen anyone with anything solid as far as proposals and how to pay for anything. I read the TN article yesterday and it seemed like a lot of Blah blah blah! None of the candidates are coming out with any bold plans on anything and there does not seem to be a genius in the mix. Sorry if I offend any of them reading this, but I would like to see some bold statements on how to fix something and how to pay for something. It more or less looks like politics as usual with every candidate saying what the voters want to hear. Oh, I heard the State and Federal Funds option, but those have to be applied for, approved, and granted and as we all know that can be a long shot at best sometimes and is never guaranteed. It also never covers the full bill!

I think Metro can be run better and much more efficiently and it starts with department heads that are not a match for the department they are running. There are probably overlap in services from different departments such as grass cutting crews working for Parks, Schools and NDOT. Why have three separate groups when you can more efficiently have one. The job is not getting done as it is now when you see some of the crap I see driving and walking the streets. That is probably just one example, but they would counter about cost tracking. It all comes out of the same pot and that is for the bean counters. I am sure there are multiple examples of crossover services of this nature all across Metro that would save millions in the long term. Building maintenance, fleet maintenance is two more right off the bat. You just track parts and hours. But Metro police, fire, schools and transit all have their own fleet maintenance. Diesel is diesel and gas combustion is that. These vehicles are built by the same manufacturers and there are only cosmetic differences except on the ladders and pumpers on the fire trucks.

[jkc2j]

I wonder what the feasibility is for Nashville to build something similar to Vancouver's skytrain. It's an above grade system that doesn't require acrquiring ROW on existing roads to my understanding. I believe a skytrain line from the airport to downtown could be very successful.

 Not sure what the cost would be but apparently the Vancouver system startup cost was $854 million. Not sure how that would translate into today's dollars.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_(Vancouver)

Edited July 12, 2023 by jkc2j

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, jkc2j said:

I wonder what the feasibility is for Nashville to build something similar to Vancouver's skytrain. It's an above grade system that doesn't require acrquiring ROW on the main roads to my understanding. I believe a skytrain line from the airport to downtown could be very successful.

 Not sure what the cost would be but apparently the Vancouver system startup cost was $854 million. Not sure how that would translate into today's dollars.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_(Vancouver)

That's exactly what I was thinking of, much easier to put pillars down then all of the rail.

[chc3]

The SkyTrain is wonderful. And for the first five years it was free. I take the Amtrak Cascades route from the beautiful Everett WA station to Vancouver’s Pacific Central Station and then jump on the SkyTrain to downtown. It’s heavily used.

[MontanaGuy]

The SeaTac airport has something very similar: 

[PaulChinetti]

"In 2022, the system had a ridership of 116,569,000, or about 403,000 per weekday as of the first quarter of 2023."

Wowza

[samsonh]

14 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

"In 2022, the system had a ridership of 116,569,000, or about 403,000 per weekday as of the first quarter of 2023."

Wowza

Yeah it is fantastic. Absurd we don't have something similar. 

[PruneTracy]

23 hours ago, Nashville Cliff said:

Ron, thanks.  Problem with Nashville to Knoxville is that there isn't an existing, live freight line, which means the state would have to lay a lot of new track over very difficult terrain.

The ROW of the historical Tennessee Central Railway (which closed in 1968) is largely still intact between Monterrey (the terminus of the Nashville and Eastern Railroad) and Crab Orchard (private spur to Norfolk Southern). This railway was operational as late as 1992 and likely still has much of the railbed intact.

[Bos2Nash]

42 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

The ROW of the historical Tennessee Central Railway (which closed in 1968) is largely still intact between Monterrey (the terminus of the Nashville and Eastern Railroad) and Crab Orchard (private spur to Norfolk Southern). This railway was operational as late as 1992 and likely still has much of the railbed intact.

Similarly to what some folks have asked for in regards to Metro owned property, is there a database of some sorts of Road/Rail/Public ROW? 

I know this would be a very outlandish idea, but what if we were to lay rail along the high voltage utility line easements? With some creative thinking could those monstrous utility poles be "redesigned" to move them to one side or the other and have rail follow those easements? I feel like we would still run into grade issues and possibly a crap ton more bridges, but the Land and ROW is technically already there, no?

[NissanvilleTitans]

Can the state use their wonderful credit score and actually get this train idea going?

[tragenvol]

On 7/10/2023 at 1:14 PM, smeagolsfree said:

As always as the story states TN is starting from scratch and has no money in place unlike surrounding states. Why is it that Tn is always lagging behind other states? I think the main reason is leadership or lack thereof and any forward thinking on the part of the state legislature.  This is far from reality, and it is interesting that Cliff stated bus routes and not train routes between other cities. The way you connect your train routes with other cities is with more train routes and I know he was being careful there. As we all saw on the proposed map there is no rail connection to Middle Tn from Knoxville and that leaves a gaping hole in the transportation system if you want it to be comprehensive.  I commend Cliff for doing a great job explaining this and wish we had more people getting the message out.

My percent in seeing this done is about 10%. My outlook on the future of rail in this state is dim at best when the state cannot even build roads to keep up with the demands of the growing population needs and to spend billions of dollars on rail would end up being a waste of money to most of those legislators. I am driving back and forwards between here and Huntsville and it seems that there is always a 15 mile back up due to volume at the Saturn Parkway entrance now on I-65 that continues till the 8 lane at Goose Creek. The state cannot get a handle on the growth. Till then I think the money will continue to go into roads and not rail.

Right.  May as well be DOA.  Tennessee missed the deadline to apply for the "once in a lifetime" funding from the recent infrastructure bill awaiting a "report" from TACIR...did we not?  "Nah, bruh...we're good....give me some of that grant funding from the $5.8 million pot rather than that $1.8 billion one."  We have a plan to start planning.  Please someone correct me; why is this story getting so much positive traction?  I'd love to be wrong on this one. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by tragenvol

[smeagolsfree]

16 hours ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

Can the state use their wonderful credit score and actually get this train idea going?

They could, but they don't borrow money and that's the problem. Pay as you go just does not work. You could build a lot of roads, rails, or transit cheaper 5, 10 ,25 years ago if you borrowed the money even with the interest and it cost a lot more in materials and labor 5 and 10 years later when you wait. But the dingdongs in the state can't see that prices just keep going up and pay as you go just end up costing more as you go on. Inflation outweighs interest and now interest with inflation just screw them even worse.

[markhollin]

WeGo Transit has a public survey on studying future ideas for the 7 station train route from downtown to Lebanon:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WeGoStar?utm_term=nashtoday&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=nashtoday&utm_content=nashtoday

They will also hold in-person public meetings:
 

• Riverfront + Downtown | Tuesday, July 18 | 6-7:30 p.m. | Meet at the Nashville Chamber of Commerce, 500 11th Ave. N.
• Donelson + Hermitage | Wednesday, July 19 | 6-7:30 p.m. | Meet at Fifty Forward, 108 Donelson Pk.
• Martha + Hamilton Springs | Thursday, July 20 | 6-7:30 p.m. | Meet at Body Kneads Coffee, 1050 Hamilton Station Blvd., Unit 103, Lebanon
• Mt. Juliet | Tuesday, July 25 | 6-7:30 p.m. | Meet at Mt. Juliet Chamber of Commerce, 2055 N. Mt. Juliet Rd. #200
• Lebanon | Wednesday, July 26 | 6-7:30 p.m. | Meet at City Hall – Town Meeting Hall, 200 N. Castle Heights Ave.

[Xanitus13]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:17 PM, Nashville Cliff said:

And Matt Wiltshire:

Transit and Infrastructure

Nashville has been making transit and infrastructure plans for years. And in that time, traffic has gotten worse. 1,200 of our bus stops still lack shelters. And a recent survey ranked our transit system among the least used in the nation. Nashvillians are ready to move from plans to action, and Matt is the strong leader who can make that happen.

Nashville has fallen behind our peer cities when it comes to public transportation. In fact, we’re the last city of our size without dedicated funding for transit. In the long-term, finding a source of sustainable funding will be key, and Matt will work with advocates to determine the optimal time to go to voters. In the short-term, Matt will prioritize transit projects that help build a culture of mass transit, along with investments that offer better service to current riders and help bring in new ones.

Build gold-standard mass transit along Murfreesboro Pike to the airport

Before the end of the year, Matt will prioritize and accelerate the process to bring dedicated-lane mass transit to Murfreesboro Pike along a route that connects downtown to the airport. And because Matt knows that transit and affordable housing go hand in hand, he will lead efforts to put affordable housing options near the transit stops along that route. That way, workers can get to jobs downtown or out to the airport, which is a large employer, without getting stuck in traffic or having to pay up to $40 for parking.

Carrying 4,000 people a day, the Murfreesboro Pike route boasts WeGo’s highest daily ridership. Building a premium transit line here will pull traffic off the interstate and help build a culture of mass-transit in Nashville. This project, which the airport can help pay for, has been included in Nashville’s transit plans for years. Matt will move beyond planning and start building. This project is well-positioned to receive funding for up to 70% of the cost from the federal government and the Airport Authority can pay for all of the infrastructure from the airport to the first transit stop. The remaining cost for Metro government is well within the city’s existing financial capacity.

Provide more buses, more often, along with better transit centers in more places

Matt will bring Nashvillians the bus system they deserve. With more buses running more hours each day, riders’ commute times will be shorter. Increased crosstown bus routes will mean they are able to reach their destination without having to transfer downtown. And new neighborhood transit centers with upgraded bus stops will improve riders’ overall experience and help spur transit-oriented development.

WeGo has been pushing to upgrade our bus system for years, but plans have faltered under a lack of funding. As Mayor, Matt will lead the way – and direct the resources – to move from plans to action.

I hope this “premium mass transit” on Murfreesboro Pike isn’t just BRT, but rather some form of rail. Be it heavy or light rail, I don’t care as long as it’s not just more buses. I mean, they purposely left space in the airport for a rail station for god sake! Matter of fact, why not put another extension up to the Star station in Donelson? Give people some options to get around from the airport 

[PaulChinetti]

59 minutes ago, Xanitus13 said:

And because Matt knows that transit and affordable housing go hand in hand, he will lead efforts to put affordable housing options near the transit stops along that route.

AND hopefully in a 10 minute walking circle around the stop. Not just in a one block vicinity.