Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[RANYC]

28 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I blame both the city and the state. The state should not be involved though. I don't like a representative from Shelby telling me what I can or cannot vote for in my county to score political wins. They don't live here. They don't know what is best for us. 

On the flipside... maybe the city shouldn't have even bothered with a transit plan knowing the state is not interested in giving Charlotte a political win when they can use that to their advantage. Just a waste of time.  

I think the relationship between Charlotte and Raleigh politicians is a bit more nuanced than that.  Every time I hear the mayor discuss the transit plan, she sounds obscurely high-level.  The story she delivers isn't very compelling at all. 

Was CATS to be the primary "Executor" of the transit plan once approved?  Well for much of the time since the so-called transit plan was formulated, the organization running transit was a dysfunctional and mismanaged mess not even keeping up with the basics of a maintenance schedule on its fleet.  And yet we wanted a generational transit investment to fall under its purview? 

Yes, John Lewis is gone and I'm gathering that Cagle has made strides to course-correct, but Cagle is an interim head, right?  I'd heard from folks that CATS had been systemically damaged and deficient up until recently.  So how could this massive "plan," again, generational investment north of $13 billion, have been ready for primetime with the State Legislature given all the other noise and given that the governance framework of the agency with responsibility for carrying it out isn't even stable?

Why should a conservative state legislature be gung-ho for this?  Why even would a democratic legislature be on board?  The political realities of this state are what they are and I'm not sure why we ever thought this transit plan could be implemented in a vacuum.  And frankly, is CATS now under stable and strategic leadership?  Can we even pitch this to the state without a good answer to this question?  

Edited February 2 by RANYC

[MarcoPolo]

Having pretty good knowledge of the behind the scenes "goings-on" I can validate the points @CLT Development made and some of the observations @kermit made.  At the end of the day, foot traffic offered by the transit opportunities, in and through the property and adjoining blocks, is what made the site of great interest for the office portion of this mixed use development, and in turn, was the catalyst for ground breaking.  The illustrations @CLT Development showed are indeed just a glimpse of the working imagery for the Project.  It is, at least "on the boards", truly a world class ensemble of buildings, both from street and platform facing levels.  As @CLT Development more than hinted at, the City of Charlotte often relies on others to do the heavy lifting in partnerships like this and as a result, does not adequately carry enough weight or knowledge of the particulars  to ensure adequate information and support.   Developers do not like uncertainty.   The "sliver line" fiasco and a short sided lobbying team in Raleigh, allow political inclinations and ideologies to fester..... "roads first for example", without a counter balance to permit progress, or reliable assumptions for marketing purposes.  Charlotte does need to improve its game in this regard. 

The Project is not dead, but will be right sized at some point, to respond to conditions that are certain.  At the end of the day, construction will occur on the balance of the site's potential and Charlotte will end up having a grand rail station hub, just not as soon as many of us would have preferred. 

[southslider]

2 hours ago, jthomas said:

IF (and clearly that's a big if) anyone cared about the intercity rail portion of this project, you could build a sidewalk and dropoff lane in the space available now, knock out the panels circled in red, and start running trains uptown in a matter of weeks. Heck, you wouldn't even have to close the current station if it was important to have station facilities somewhere - trains could stop at both stations. Just give people the ability to get on/off the train uptown if they want!

Move this concept one block northeast or across Trade Street along Wilkes Place and you have the actual temporary station seriously considered by Amtrak.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Why should a conservative state legislature be gung-ho for this? 

because denser cities that offer multiple modes of transportation are much more productive places. Not to mention that are much less costly to operate and maintain than sprawling, auto dependent places. These are not controversial or uncertain processes, the productivity-density link has been proven many times over. If we had a legislature that was AT ALL interested in evidence, they would be doing everything they could to allow Charlotte and Raleigh to expand sustainably.

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

 I've been under the assumption we'd instead have a Silver Line Phase I, half the size of what's currently proposed, with a Silver Line Extension coming down the road.  Phase I could get you from Oakhurst to the Airport, perhaps?

While a truncated Silver Line makes a ton of sense from an effective transit perspective, it just won't fly with the folks at the MTC who have the power to approve such a thing. Since the outlying towns have voting power on the MTC, and they have been (justifiably) bithcing about the absence of the Red Line for nearly two decades, they are never going to approve spending county-wide sales tax dollars on a project that is entirely within Charlotte.  It is completely true that LRT should not be used as commuter rail, but unfortunately the way we have set up governance for CATS, LRT that does not reach at least one of the outlying towns in the county just aint gonna happen. (and this is why the city had to pay for the Gold Line from its own money).

[RANYC]

21 minutes ago, kermit said:

because denser cities that offer multiple modes of transportation are much more productive places. Not to mention that are much less costly to operate and maintain than sprawling, auto dependent places. These are not controversial or uncertain processes, the productivity-density link has been proven many times over. If we had a legislature that was AT ALL interested in evidence, they would be doing everything they could to allow Charlotte and Raleigh to expand sustainably.

While a truncated Silver Line makes a ton of sense from an effective transit perspective, it just won't fly with the folks at the MTC who have the power to approve such a thing. Since the outlying towns have voting power on the MTC, and they have been (justifiably) bithcing about the absence of the Red Line for nearly two decades, they are never going to approve spending county-wide sales tax dollars on a project that is entirely within Charlotte.  It is completely true that LRT should not be used as commuter rail, but unfortunately the way we have set up governance for CATS, LRT that does not reach at least one of the outlying towns in the county just aint gonna happen. (and this is why the city had to pay for the Gold Line from its own money).

I'm talking about doing both the Red Line & a truncated Silver Line, with Silver Line going from something like 26-miles to a mere 12 (Oakhurst to Airport), so maybe just $2.5 billion - Silver Line Phase I, if we can get a handle on the per mile light rail costs.  Red Line was estimated at shy of 700 million in 2021, mark that up to a billion.  So 3.5 billion for train, and the balance on roads and an acceleration of the greenway system so that expanded greenway designs across the city are interconnected and accessible to everyone and perhaps direct everyone to the greenway system for protected bike mobility instead of bike lanes adjacent to pickups & SUVs?  Throw in there a Greenway GPS as well so tourists know how to get to different landmarks in town just using our 300+ mile network of greenways.

In the interim, put a very simple open air train Amtrak station near Gateway station in Uptown and give folks a stop option there.  I personally have a hunch that any sort of Amtrak stop option in Uptown will drive even more ridership into Charlotte, but it's just a supposition based on anecdotal evidence.

Oh yeah, and in the spirit of anticipatory planning, make sure Operation Trio at the temporary Gateway Amtrak station is ready at the outset. 

Edited February 2 by RANYC

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I'm talking about doing both the Red Line & a truncated Silver Line, with Silver Line going from something like 26-miles to a mere 12, so maybe just $2.5 billion if we can get a handle on the per mile light rail costs.

Good idea. Packaging them together would be the trick (the Silver would give N Meck residents more travel options). Unfortunately the costs being tossed around for the Red Line are nearly 30 years old, and transitional commuter rail is dead. The multiple efforts at Triangle Commuter rail show us that the Red would need to be regional rail (steady, two way service throughout the day) in order to get federal funding. That is going to ramp up costs (but it will result in MUCH better service),  its gonna be much more expensive that the costs being thrown around (well above $2.5 billion just for Red IMO)

[RANYC]

I'm highly suspicious of Norfolk Southern's openness to discuss use of tracks.  The city had better pounce as much as it can and exploit this window.  A democratic (Biden) administration overseeing the STB and DOT might be behind the scenes pushing railroads to work with local communities on supporting alternative mobility goals.  Should we go back to a conservative executive branch, perhaps we'll see a pretty abrupt tone shift.  I think the letter to Charlotte might have been mere lip service to keep Buttigieg and others off their case.  We need to be vocal and visible in our attempts to advance the project during this window.  

https://www.stb.gov/news-communications/latest-news/pr-24-04-2/

If you follow that link, it's a news release from the STB on hearings where Amtrak is arguing to be allowed to use freight lines owned by Norfolk & CSX to expand intercity rail service.  I know Amtrak is Amtrak, but anyone know if this is what the Northeastern Cities do when they want more use of freight lines for commuters...lobby STB?  Are we applying pressure to all of our leverage points to get things moving?

Edited February 2 by RANYC

[kermit]

25 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I'm highly suspicious of Norfolk Southern's openness to discuss use of tracks.  The city had better pounce as much as it can and exploit this window.  A democratic (Biden) administration overseeing the STB and DOT might be behind the scenes pushing railroads to work with local communities on supporting alternative mobility goals.  Should we go back to a conservative executive branch, perhaps we'll see a pretty abrupt tone shift.  I think the letter to Charlotte might have been mere lip service to keep Buttigieg and others off their case.  We need to be vocal and visible in our attempts to advance the project during this window. 

FWIW yesterday the WSJ had a story on an activist investor who has amassed $1billion of NS stock that just announced they will push for the ouster of the current NS CEO and push for the railroad to be operated more "efficiently" -- largely focused on cost reductions (the stock was up 9% yesterday on this news). Obviously there are few specifics in the article, but I would certainly see this pressure as a new reason for NS to divest themselves of the O-Line tracks since they are a) unlikely to ever be profitably be used by the railroad, and b) represent some liability to NS. This is certainly not a climate where NS can think about paying the costs necessary to reactivate the line or rationalize holding the mothballed line on the books for the benefit of NCRR renegotiations in 25+ years.

The stars may be aligning for the Red Line, Charlotte just has to find the money.

https://www.wsj.com/business/deals/ancora-led-group-takes-aim-at-norfolk-southern-pushes-to-oust-ceo-shaw-dbd029f7

Edited February 2 by kermit

[RANYC]

5 minutes ago, kermit said:

FWIW

FWIW yesterday the WSJ had a story on an activist investor who has amassed $1billion of NS stock that just announced they will push for the ouster of the current NS CEO and push for the railroad to be operated more "efficiently" -- largely focused on cost reductions (the stock was up 9% yesterday on this news). Obviously there are few specifics in the article, but I would certainly see this pressure as a new reason for NS to divest themselves of the O-Line tracks since they are a) unlikely to ever be profitably be used by the railroad, and b) represent some liability to NS. This is certainly not a climate where NS can think about paying the costs necessary to reactivate the line or rationalize holding the mothballed line on the books for the benefit of NCRR renegotiations in 25+ years.

The stars may be aligning for the Red Line, Charlotte just has to find the money.

https://www.wsj.com/business/deals/ancora-led-group-takes-aim-at-norfolk-southern-pushes-to-oust-ceo-shaw-dbd029f7

True, and with new requirements likely coming in the wake of the East Palestine crisis, not sure NS will want to hold on to non-core rail line assets given rail will need capital investments to come into conformance.

[TheMightyBK]

How unusual is it that NC requires state approval for local tax increases?  Do other states operate this way?  That alone seems like a monumental impediment to localities’ ability to accomplish goals.  

[videtur quam contuor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_rule_in_the_United_States

This gives you a start on the issue.Red and yellow are the most restrictive.

[Norm2]

This whole Gateway Station/transit plan situation is just depressing to me and I don't see anything changing anytime soon.....

[Eastern]

A few years ago the state gave counties the option to have a referendum to have a 1/4th cent sales tax increase. Did Mecklenburg  County ever do that?  If not, it could be a small source of revenue for the rail lines. Add this to some other creative options and they may generate enough revenue to start the Red line, some road improvements and maybe a short piece of the Silver line.   Another piece of legislation, Senate bill 696 titled Local Option Sales Tax Flexibility was considered in the 2023 session. It would give some counties the option of adding an additional 1/4 or 1/2 cent sales tax by  referendum.  Last I could find, it was referred to a committee on Rules and Operations  of the Senate. It needs to be resurrected.   In a related matter that is critical, the NC speaker of the House who is from Cleveland Co, a man who has stood in the way of Mecklenburg County and Charlotte getting the 1 cent sales tax referendum approval in that branch, as you know is running for the congressional seat in the newly redrawn 14th district. This district now includes part of North Mecklenburg County and Lake Norman towns and cities. While this district was designed to lean red, this guy has been the poster child of the rural urban divide, and of despising the urban areas to the fullest extent possible to provide for rural areas. He is not a person who will or should champion the urban needs of Gaston, Lincoln, Mecklenburg and the other rapidly urbanizing areas of the 14th. His vile actions against urban areas should be blasted across the district to the point that he either loses or will have to cut a deal ie approve  or compromise on the 1 cent tax and support a referendum to get elected. He needs the support of the Northern Mecklenburg cities and towns, but unless he can find more state money, the 1 cent tax referendum needs to be approved by the NCGA  to fund a Red Line which now may cost up to a couple of billions.  Trying to get the favor of the voters is the reason he found a few crumbs for improvements on the I85-485 interchange. He needs to painfully learn that is not enough to buy this district or be elected to represent people he has in the past treated like they were his enemies. 

 

[kermit]

9 hours ago, Eastern said:

A few years ago the state gave counties the option to have a referendum to have a 1/4th cent sales tax increase. Did Mecklenburg  County ever do that?  If not, it could be a small source of revenue for the rail lines. 

While my memory on it is fuzzy, I do remember two reasons why Meck has not sought this quarter cent. First, our pre-existing 1/2 cent transit tax may may mean  that Meck is ineligible to use this sales tax increment (but I am not 100% on this). Second, it was generally accepted that 1/4 cent was not enough for any workable transit expansion, and there was a hesitance to establish several different taxes for transit (any referendum would face the question from voters of “what about that sales tax hike we voted for last year”)

[Norm2]

Looks like the cap on sales tax in NC is 7.5%, so meck can raise taxes by 1/4 of a percent. I do not think the GOP would ever allow the county to raise sales taxes beyond this point. although it would not be a popular decision, property taxes would be easier to increase to fund the transit plan.

[kermit]

On 2/4/2024 at 1:22 PM, Norm2 said:

Looks like the cap on sales tax in NC is 7.5%, so meck can raise taxes by 1/4 of a percent. I do not think the GOP would ever allow the county to raise sales taxes beyond this point. although it would not be a popular decision, property taxes would be easier to increase to fund the transit plan.

Its certainly more feasible in the sense that we have permission to do it. However, this increase would be substantial ( a couple hundred dollars per average house per year), and very visible (property tax bills get paid once per year). No politician voting to that would ever get reelected.

IMO since Mecklenburg is responsible for 21% of the state's GDP (but is a bit less than 10% of the state's population), the state should be working their ass off to make sure Mecklenburg sees enough investment in infrastructure to prevent the state's most productive land from clogging its economic arteries with auto dependent growth. The state really should be paying for transit, not county residents. Unfortunately the state decided to essentially zero out their contribution to transit. 

I am certain we don't receive state investments worth anywhere near 21% (or even 10%) of the state's budget.

Edit: The current NC budget is $30 billion. 21% of that is $6.3 billion

Edited February 6 by kermit

[Guest]

Things are moving along faster than you guys would imagine with the red line acquisition but no one seems to know why they are just now willing to bargain and I think any optimism has come with a heavy dose of suspicion.

[CLT Development]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

Its certainly more feasible in the sense that we have permission to do it. However, this increase would be substantial ( a couple hundred dollars per average house per year), and very visible (property tax bills get paid once per year). No politician voting to that would ever get reelected.

IMO since Mecklenburg is responsible for 21% of the state's GDP (but is a bit less than 10% of the state's population), the state should be working their ass off to make sure Mecklenburg sees enough investment in infrastructure to prevent the state's most productive land from clogging its economic arteries with auto dependent growth. The state really should be paying for transit, not county residents. I am certain we don't receive 21% (or even 10%) of the state's revenue.

Edit: The current NC budget is $30 billion. 21% of that is $6.3 billion

and that's just the county, the metro brings in another $70B

Edited February 5 by CLT Development

[RANYC]

14 hours ago, MothBeast said:

Things are moving along faster than you guys would imagine with the red line acquisition but no one seems to know why they are just now willing to bargain and I think any optimism has come with a heavy dose of suspicion.

There was a report to congress in July 2019 written by the federal railroad administration of the US DOT.  The report provides guidelines for shared use of freight infrastructure, shared between freight and passenger operations.

In the report, the railroad passengers association suggests a grant program that acquires abandoned or underutilized rail corridors from freight operators. 

Im wondering if there’s something in the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill that’s creating incentives for freight operators to share infrastructure for passenger rail?

[RANYC]

20 hours ago, Norm2 said:

Looks like the cap on sales tax in NC is 7.5%, so meck can raise taxes by 1/4 of a percent. I do not think the GOP would ever allow the county to raise sales taxes beyond this point. although it would not be a popular decision, property taxes would be easier to increase to fund the transit plan.

DC bizjournals article last week on how the commercial tax base is in a free-fall there because of rapidly falling commercial real estate values.  Taxable assessed value there has fallen by $12 billion in two years, with the city’s CFO telling council that annual tax receipts from commercial real estate likely to drop by $250 to $300 million annually.  

He goes on to say that 2025 budget will be the most difficult to craft since the Great Recession.  I know real estate pros are addressing Charlotte council about how high vacancies are, but have we modeled this out at all?  We’re gonna need to raise property taxes just to balance the existing budget.  Doubt there will be appetite to raise it more just to fund the silver line as it is currently designed.  

Anyone know about land use taxes and whether the dire situation in commercial real estate would be a good time to explore the concept as a new revenue stream for cities, or if it’s actually an even worse time to explore it?

 

Edited February 5 by RANYC

[kermit]

Off topic but perhaps of interest here:

The February CAPT Newsletter mentions that Wilmington International Airport (ILM) could be he first in NC to be connected to passenger rail. The Raleigh-Wilmington tracks run past the airport entrance and stop locations are being discussed as part of the route planning process now. It was mentioned that ILM currently does not have any flight connections to RDU (but an RDU stop is still not on anyone's books)

I would bet on Raleigh-Wilmington rail to happen before Charlotte-Kings Mountain rail.

RDU and PTI rail connections are also theoretically possible (along with GSP and ATL)

Edited February 5 by kermit

[kayman]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:57 PM, kdub1 said:

Failed leadership all around. They have been planning this thing for 22 years with only DOT's part to show for it. At this point, Atlanta has a better chance of rectifying its Peachtree albatross before the Gateway full build. I mean, I remember being a student at NC State in the early 2000s  when Union Station wasn't even a concept (the closest thing was a proposed Hillsborough Street station for the failed TTA project) and we've seen how far the eastern end of the Piedmont Corriddor has come along.

The state fully supported the Union Station concept in Raleigh because Raleigh didn't have the will nor the expertise to execute the grants implemented nor the pieces to complete the process. NCDOT and NCRR have been very Raleigh-focused on development of passenger rail. 

Charlotte has only been given a fraction of that and as a result it had to rely on the private sector to build the Gateway Station concept & surrounding development. Yeah it could have built a free-standing station but it would have cost millions of dollars for it to temporarily move the Amtrak station & Greyhound stations while it was been rebuilt as the Gateway Station with the high-rise development on top. 

Many things in the state of North Carolina disadvantages Charlotte while overtaking the assistance of helping for Raleigh. 

Edited February 9 by kayman

[ajfunder]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:27 AM, RANYC said:

There was a report to congress in July 2019 written by the federal railroad administration of the US DOT.  The report provides guidelines for shared use of freight infrastructure, shared between freight and passenger operations.

In the report, the railroad passengers association suggests a grant program that acquires abandoned or underutilized rail corridors from freight operators. 

Im wondering if there’s something in the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill that’s creating incentives for freight operators to share infrastructure for passenger rail?

It’s pretty simple, passenger rail upgrades also mean upgrades to the freight infrastructure. Freight railroads can’t be a grant applicant or recipient for most federal programs but they can immensely benefit from them if there is a public entity involved and willing to be an applicant.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Back in the early 2000s I put together a proposal for commuter rail in eastern NC from Wilson to Goldsboro via Raleigh.  NCRR, which owns the line between Raleigh and Goldsboro was on board.  NS owns the line to Wilson through Knightdale, Wendell, and Zebulon.  Before the proposal was hijacked by an incompetent politician and driven into the ground, NS entertained the idea of operating passenger service on their line in exchange for development rights along the corridor and public investment in improving the corridor.  Since the goal of the project was economic development (not reducing car trips) and to encourage compact, walkable development in outlying towns - the opportunity was real.  The way we got to that point wasn't by telling NS they had to do this or that but by engaging them in the vision and the role they could play in it.  The project/vision was called Eastrans - and until the politicians got involved, it could have actually worked.  

[KJHburg]

FYI here is a photo of the downtown Amtrak station in Durham.  The major GoTriangle bus station is a block away.  

In terms of the S Line going up from Raleigh to Richmond my friend in Henderson was telling me this old bank columned building in downtown will be the new train station and they have high hopes for this to generate traffic and tourism.  

first 3 photos downtown Durham

last 2 downtown Henderson NC on the new S Line to Richmond.  You can see the railline right behind their small downtown which actually has a large office for Roses stores.  

NC: NCDOT got $1.1 billion to build a railroad in Wake County. What does that buy? | Mass Transit (masstransitmag.com)

Edited February 18 by KJHburg