Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[davidclt]

Moot point, Transit pass program is on-hold: Transit Pass | North Carolina Amtrak Service (ncbytrain.org)

Edited December 2, 2022 by davidclt

[Third Strike]

The ACRW plans to purchase the railroad they’ve been operating on from Norfolk Southern, between Charlotte and Gulf, which is in Chatham County, which is also in the Research Triangle region. I had always assumed that the ACRW had acquired the line from NS a long time ago, so this was surprising news. I don’t think this will have any impacts on our region’s transit plans, but with a direct rail line between two of North Carolina’s largest metropolitan areas soon to be owned by a shortline, I thought this would be worth noting. 
 

https://www.railwayage.com/freight/short-lines-regionals/acwr-seeks-to-acquire-nss-piedmont-subdivision/

[kermit]

^ the fact that the ACWR could come up with the cash for this purchase is a very good sign. Rail car growth is looking good thanks to Charlotte Pipe and I eagerly await their fancy trains being parked on their new siding in NoDa.

I think the ACWR is in a very sweet spot. They have access to some top notch industrial land, rapid economic growth at both ends of their corridor, and a well-respected car rebuilding business. If they can follow up on Charlotte pipe and hustle up a bit more industrial activity in the middle of their route, then the ACWR would certainly become one of the healthier short lines in the country. While the downside risk of the ACWR is they have a bunch of track to maintain, they might benefit from some careful expansions. The CSX S-Line  tracks from Hamlet up to Sanford are being shopped, and they are a logical fit for the ACWR.  Hell, if they wanted to be aggressive the ACWR would be a good buyer of CSX’s Charlotte sub (Monroe to Lincolnton-Bostic). ACWR could make steady cashflow from the Paw Creek liquids traffic, and could move freight from the mountains to coastal plain (and across Charlotte). This purchase would also open up the tracks to daytime commuter rail to Monroe (with appropriate maintenance payments from the passenger agency), it could be a Nashville Music City Star sort of setup (class 4 tracks owned by a still freight-carrying short line).

I could also see the ACWR as a company who could make the Piedmont Northern actually payoff for the Charlotte metro by integrating it into their larger network and using the relationships that their economic development office already has. None of the operators who leased the P&N from the state has been able to make a dime for themselves or stimulate any economic development so far. Something will need to happen with the P&N soon, all of the industrial land along it will get absorbed into non-rail stuff if they don’t move quickly.

Edited December 27, 2022 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

This may be reported elsewhere. For those such as I who have family arriving this week by train, Amtrak has a tracking option with track status, ETA, speed, direction, and more. No need for my party to call me when they leave Kannapolis inbound. If only there were parking updates at the station.

[kermit]

There has been some conflicting information on this but the Carolina's Association for Pax Trains (CAPT) says the 4th Piedmont Frequency is still planned to begin in "Spring 23".  They specifically say that Amtrak and NCDOT are currently finishing up operational and scheduling discussions.

The December newsletter also mentions this interesting tidbit about passenger rail in NC:

Quote

Rail Division Director Jason Orthner says North Carolina is receptive to cooperative efforts with the South Carolina Department of Transportation on furthering the rail passenger  experience in the Carolinas. Charlotte to Columbia service ideas have been shared recently between the Transportation Secretaries of both states. Both states also have interest in more frequent and higher speed service between Charlotte and Atlanta.

and in terms of Gateway station specifically:

Quote

Work on the Gateway station building is expected to begin within a year, and completion and service beginning in 2026. That work has been delayed due to Charlotte Area Transit System which initially planned a Silver Line light rail stop parallel to the station platform.

and in their discussion of the test train sent to test the size of the Gateway platform they mention this previously unknown fact (the yard at Summit ave has been complete for 5ish years and never before connected to the NS tracks):

Quote

The test train also visited the new rail maintenance facility south of site which has now been connected to Norfolk Southern tracks . It's unclear when passenger trains will begin using the maintenance facility. Initially it will be the overnight home of the Carolinian for layover and servicing. [this yard will need to be used if NCDOT decides to park a Piedmont set in Charlotte overnight]

CAPT is an interesting organization. I have been to a couple of meetings and it seems like it is made up of a couple of very knowledgeable retired rail industry folks and nearly all of the NCDOT onboard train hosts. I considered becoming a regular member but I am 20 years too young to match their demographic (and I am in my mid-50s).

Edited December 26, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

and in terms of Gateway station specifically:

Work on the Gateway station building is expected to begin within a year, and completion and service beginning in 2026. That work has been delayed due to Charlotte Area Transit System which initially planned a Silver Line light rail stop parallel to the station platform.

The silver line still plagues us!! Haha.

[lit]

2 hours ago, JeanClt said:

 

 

The silver line still plagues us!! Haha.

 

 

I seriously hope I get to catch a train to a Checkers game before I leave this planet

[Reverie39]

Gateway station can’t come soon enough. 

[kermit]

^ decent intercity rail to the North is another asset that the city is pissing away due to neglect (like foot dragging on a new station).

FWIW, Open Railway Map now shows the Gateway Station tracks and platform. The track layout makes it VERY difficult to retrofit a commuter rail platform. Two platform tracks can handle a ton of trains IF they run through, but their is not much capacity here when trains are expected to turn (and at the moment, every train planned to run to Gateway other than the Crescent will terminate here). Having said that, I would bet that arrivals from Greensboro will only stop briefly at Gateway and then they will run to the maintenance / storage yard at Summit, so it will be like they are running through)

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

^ decent intercity rail to the North is another asset that the city is pissing away due to neglect (like foot dragging on a new station).
FWIW, Open Railway Map now shows the Gateway Station tracks and platform. The track layout makes it VERY difficult to retrofit a commuter rail platform. Two platform tracks can handle a ton of trains IF they run through, but their is not much capacity here when trains are expected to turn (and at the moment, every train planned to run to Gateway other than the Crescent will terminate here). Having said that, I would bet that arrivals from Greensboro will only stop briefly at Gateway and then they will run to the maintenance / storage yard at Summit, so it will be like they are running through)
 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_12/39698CF4-0AF9-4B69-A874-C919D94CA594.thumb.jpeg.f256bf4e7ebed2e3497e6c9af99c6dba.jpeg

Wouldn’t the commuter rail be on the greenway/pedestrian trail side?

I’m sure they must have taken this into account…maybe…lol

[kermit]

15 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Wouldn’t the commuter rail be on the greenway/pedestrian trail side?

I’m sure they must have taken this into account…maybe…lol

Yea, thanks for jogging my memory on that. I was confused by the (not yet existing) building footprint on Openrail and the fact that the Red Line would need to crossover all four tracks in order to reach a platform on that side (if it uses the ADM route, I guess this is a non-issue if the Red Line uses the slower Atando option). Shrug, the rail side of Gateway feels very underbuilt (not future-proofed) to me, but better to have something in place than nothing.

Edited December 28, 2022 by kermit

[orulz]

CAPT is an interesting organization. I have been to a couple of meetings and it seems like it is made up of a couple of very knowledgeable retired rail industry folks and nearly all of the NCDOT onboard train hosts. I considered becoming a regular member but I am 20 years too young to match their demographic (and I am in my mid-50s).

I went to a few of their meetings more than 15 years ago when I was in my early 20s and I was certainly the youngest attendee by more than a factor of 2.

[orulz]

23 hours ago, kermit said:

^ decent intercity rail to the North is another asset that the city is pissing away due to neglect (like foot dragging on a new station).

FWIW, Open Railway Map now shows the Gateway Station tracks and platform. The track layout makes it VERY difficult to retrofit a commuter rail platform. Two platform tracks can handle a ton of trains IF they run through, but their is not much capacity here when trains are expected to turn (and at the moment, every train planned to run to Gateway other than the Crescent will terminate here). Having said that, I would bet that arrivals from Greensboro will only stop briefly at Gateway and then they will run to the maintenance / storage yard at Summit, so it will be like they are running through)

 

If by commuter rail, you mean the red line - that platform has always been planned to be on the west side of the freight tracks, no? Same for the hypothetical connection from the P&N.

Here is from the 2002 feasibility study.

That said, what is built here differs significantly from what was apparently planned in 2002 so it is hard to say what has and hasn't changed.

[JRCLT]

If by commuter rail, you mean the red line - that platform has always been planned to be on the west side of the freight tracks, no? Same for the hypothetical connection from the P&N.
Here is from the 2002 feasibility study.
That said, what is built here differs significantly from what was apparently planned in 2002 so it is hard to say what has and hasn't changed.
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_12/cgs_2002.thumb.png.e124702f284c9f5130235970a05af5f8.png

I guess it’s all up in the air right about now considering nothing concrete about the redline is happening which is unfortunate…but yes I did see earlier versions did have it on that side. Whether that is the case now or not I do not know. I assume capacity expansion is not the greatest concern now or in the near future but there seems to be enough space to add capacity if necessary with adjacent lots owned by the city or NCDOT.

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 12/26/2022 at 3:12 PM, kermit said:

CAPT is an interesting organization. I have been to a couple of meetings and it seems like it is made up of a couple of very knowledgeable retired rail industry folks and nearly all of the NCDOT onboard train hosts. I considered becoming a regular member but I am 20 years too young to match their demographic (and I am in my mid-50s).

CAPT has absolutely nothing to show for any efforts it’s made (if any) in South Carolina.

Traffic in Greenville, SC, and along I-85 in SC, is horrible.  With leadership, it shouldn’t be hard to get voter support for additional passenger trains along the Charlotte-Atlanta corridor.

Who is providing that leadership?  Anyone? Buehler?

[kermit]

I wanted to see the completed connection to the equipment service yard myself so I schlepped down to the Carson overpass this morning. It is indeed completed. Passenger equipment will now be able to move from Gateway Station to the service yard without using the NS main (two tracks on left in top photo)

I am not sure this means that NCDOT will start to use the facility anytime soon, its a pretty complicated trip (on The NS main) from the existing station to Gateway. Might be useful for storing some protect equipment though…
 

 

As recently as this past summer this yard was completely detached from the rail system and has been since the yard was built (google maps image below).

Edited January 4, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

Sorry if this is basic information. 
 

But when exactly will passengers be able to board Amtrak uptown? Is the Temporary Amtrak station not going to happen anymore? 
 

Will it be years before Amtrak passengers use uptown facilities?

[kermit]

4 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

But when exactly will passengers be able to board Amtrak uptown? Is the Temporary Amtrak station not going to happen anymore? 

Will it be years before Amtrak passengers use uptown facilities?

Years

The most recent information from NCDOT is service is expected to begin at Gateway in "2026". I would not be surprised at all if it gets delayed beyond that date (office development is a large part of the PPP but covid, work from home, etc. are making it tough to pull the trigger on the project). The temporary station was eliminated a while ago, I think the developer felt like it would be an impediment to construction. There is no pedestrian access or canopy on the platform so even if we wanted to start service from there it would be impossible without another big wad of work.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by kermit

[PuppiesandKittens]

Gateway Station uptown has been on the drawing board for 20+ years.

This is ridiculous.  A train station means a platform and maybe a waiting area, at a minimum.

There are plenty of examples of temporary stations that can be built quickly and at low cost.  Devon Transfer in Connecticut is a recent example.  

Just build one platform, maybe build a temporary waiting area and give access to the street via a sidewalk or something and be done with it for now.  Just how much in revenues is being lost due to having only a junk station in a bad area on N. Tryon?
 

Edited January 2, 2023 by PuppiesandKittens

[JRCLT]

If the renderings are still up-to-date or if the plans are of similar structure, there should have been a plan for the station portion to have been built yesterday and have just the site prep read to support any future development over top the station. It’s taking way too long for what is a crucial and a beyond necessary move to a more updated facility. I’m an genuinely curious as to what is so damning in these designs that won’t let the station be constructed before anything else after this entire time that it has been proposed.

[carolina1792]

Please tell me this station was designed for future platforms right? I'm not sure where more platforms will be going?  

[ajfunder]

10 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Please tell me this station was designed for future platforms right? I'm not sure where more platforms will be going?  

There is room for a 3rd track/additional platform on the Uptown side of the station. I believe the abutments appear to be built big enough to accommodate the 3rd Station track on the Uptown side. i think the piers would have to be expanded though.

Also, old concepts included two other tracks with a center platform on the Gateway Village Side of the tracks, not sure if that is still the case. In all honesty, as long as the maintenance facility is expanded accordingly allowing trains to pass through after loading/unloading, the two constructed should be enough for the foreseeable future and the 3rd provides contingency for expansion if needed in the near future.

[B Randy]

On 1/2/2023 at 11:26 AM, JeanClt said:

If the renderings are still up-to-date or if the plans are of similar structure, there should have been a plan for the station portion to have been built yesterday and have just the site prep read to support any future development over top the station. It’s taking way too long for what is a crucial and a beyond necessary move to a more updated facility. I’m an genuinely curious as to what is so damning in these designs that won’t let the station be constructed before anything else after this entire time that it has been proposed.

Nothing damning.

It's an extremely complex P3 (public private partnership) w/ three stations (Amtrak, Silver Line, Bus), multiple rail corridors/sets of platforms, and significant associated public facilities.  There are ownership, leasing relationships between the developer, City, State and others related to these.  Financials to build station facilities likely tied to the overall deal - which means a baseline project program and design is needed to get to go on the financial agreements w/ City.

It's also been envisioned as a seamless mixed-use project, with buildings rising above, but also (lobbies, elevators, F&B, etc) coming to ground, where they have to interact and fit w/ all of the public facilities.  So splitting off pieces and parts to be developed in advance is difficult and would likely always feel "separate".  Not impossible, but also not in the best interest of a transformational design project.

The real culprit is the Silver Line back and forth over the past year re: alignment + that prevented the design and financial agreements from getting to a place where things could be more final and move forward (again, b/c it's envisioned to be fully integrated into the overall and every alignment move that changes from the current plan causes many many ripples...)

Unfortunately, these transformational P3s take time.  But if done right are usually worth the wait when they finally get to go.

[kermit]

21 hours ago, B Randy said:

It's an extremely complex P3 (public private partnership) w/ three stations (Amtrak, Silver Line, Bus)...

Four stations actually, the Red Line probably needs to be planned for, even if it remains unlikely. Alternatively CATS could declare the Red Line to be formally dead.

[apologies for the semantics]

Edited January 7, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

9 minutes ago, B Randy said:

Nothing damning.

It's an extremely complex P3 (public private partnership) w/ three stations (Amtrak, Silver Line, Bus), multiple rail corridors/sets of platforms, and significant associated public facilities.  There are ownership, leasing relationships between the developer, City, State and others related to these.  Financials to build station facilities likely tied to the overall deal - which means a baseline project program and design is needed to get to go on the financial agreements w/ City.

It's also been envisioned as a seamless mixed-use project, with buildings rising above, but also (lobbies, elevators, F&B, etc) coming to ground, where they have to interact and fit w/ all of the public facilities.  So splitting off pieces and parts to be developed in advance is difficult and would likely always feel "separate".  Not impossible, but also not in the best interest of a transformational design project.

The real culprit is the Silver Line back and forth over the past year re: alignment + that prevented the design and financial agreements from getting to a place where things could be more final and move forward (again, b/c it's envisioned to be fully integrated into the overall and every alignment move that changes from the current plan causes many many ripples...)

Unfortunately, these transformational P3s take time.  But if done right are usually worth the wait when they finally get to go.

What are some successful Public Private Partnerships for infrastructure that didn't take an excessively long time or worth the wait? That's not a rhetorical question, I just find myself seeing them as being more costly by the end of completion and always taking a much longer time to complete. Maybe it's that the negatives are the only ones that get attention? 

I also don't like the idea of all the office space etc as part of a giant gateway complex. I personally rather see a nice station built, space for future light rail & commuter rail and an adequate area for Greyhound/Megabus/etc. and that's it. If the station is going to spur development, then it's going to spur development. Am I not wrong in thinking that the sooner we build the station, the cheaper it will be even with a private developer? I thought the city chose Hines to develop the station but it fell through for reasons I forget, but with inflation and time ticking, I don't see the benefit in this even being a P3. 

Meanwhile, there's a ton of Infrastructure $'s that Charlotte seemingly has gotten nothing good from so far and is stuck with brand new tracks and these two terrible facilities possibly for years and possibly longer if the new private partner ends up pulling back which seems possible-ish given the popularity of SouthEnd with office space and the post-panedmic hybrid world that we are in for a bit. Also, looking at Raleigh's Union Station, it seems to be spurring development and from what I seen before, it seemed a large tower was coming to it? I get that there could be funding sources, issues and that it's a incredibly tedious planning process to go from one plan to the next. So I'm not naive to the fact that the realities of government planning takes years to come true and this (P3) is what the city decided on a long time ago.

Am I being overly pessimistic? Someone, please tell me I'm wrong. I just want a temporary Amtrak station xD That's all I really want, tbh.