Nashville Bits and Pieces

[BrandonTO416]

Sorry for my tangent about speed limits, but I just think tickets should be about safety and not a cash cow for local governments and police departments. That's not right and its an overreach of power.

 

You don't have to be from any particular background to realize the tourism industry is taxed to death in Nashville. That's why I posed the question is it worth the cost? In my judgment its clearly a no. The MCC operations should be funded largely by the conventions that choose to go there now, and revenue to advertise the facility or excess operations costs should come from the general tourism taxes already there.

 

One thing about the MCC, Nashville is an atypical city when it comes to this type of development. If Buffalo city council, for example, were to propose a mega convention center here I'd say absolutely not. The city is an increasingly smaller regional city and doesn't have the demand and it'd be a boondoggle for local taxpayers here, where property taxes are already sky high.

 

Nashville is a different city, its in a state that is heavy on tourism as a proportion of state business. Its a city that is a destination city within an already tourist heavy state, unlike many other peer cities in the same population range. The only city I know of in the range of Nashville population that is a bigger destination is Las Vegas. Destination cities can benefit from a strong, healthy convention center market.

 

Here are some regional cities in the range of Nashville's population that wouldn't benefit as much from a new convention center investment: Cincinnati, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Columbus, Birmingham. Why are these cities not good options? Neither of them are a destination/tourism city. Each of these cities do have major events that draw people, but a convention center would just be for the sake of building one instead of supplementing a huge tourism industry that already exists. Nashville, New Orleans, and Las Vegas - however - are cities that have different economies and different cultural draws. Nashville is in this class of city where the MCC makes sense to invest in.

 

I agree with the construction of the MCC, but I don't agree with any new taxes or fees to pay for its operations. Trust me, with a destination city like Nashville that already is a top tier convention location, there shouldn't be a need for local government to fund any more services for the MCC. The facility is so nice it'll sell itself, and the city being the type of city it is will draw conventions with less effort.

 

Edit: What would help Nashville more than anything right now would be for there to be a new amusement park to be built. I know last year there was almost a successful venture between Dollywood and Gaylord Entertainment to build something east of Briley Pkwy beside the Opry Mills site. Nashville desperately needs to rebuild an amusement park of some kind so that it can have all the proper amenities a destination city should have. With it being Nashville, any amusement park would be more than just a roller coaster park, but some kind of underlying theme, obviously related to music in Nashville's case. I know the city has limited means of creating this, but they can at least create better conditions for it to happen, or shop around for willing partners and get them to the table to talk to each other. Sounds to me like Gaylord enterprises is a pretty demanding company if they couldn't work with someone like Dolly Parton...

Edited March 24, 2013 by BrandonTO416

[producer2]

I wasn't remotely thinking of you when I posted that, and furthermore I don't think the discussion on Megabus should bleed into other topics.

If you notice, I actually agree with you on this point. Nashville doesn't need new fees or taxes for tourism, period. As I said before, I rented a car in Berlin last year and felt like I was ripped a new one on the fees they had. I flew home to visit family for Nashville this year, and to my surprise to rent a car at the Nashville airport - with the airport fee - its nearing 60% in taxes just to rent a car there.

When Nashville has already got taxes and fees that surpass those in Europe, I say there's enough taxation. I'm with you on this one, I don't agree with a new fee or tax. But my opinion isn't rooted in deep ideology, its just not practical and it isn't competitive.

Just for giggles, I went to priceline to see what it'd be to rent a car in Nashville from Apr 5-8th. I chose a mid size car and got this:

rentalnash.png

$33.01 in taxes and fees to rent on a value of $62.97. That's 52% in taxes.

I was surprised at how high the taxes in Nashville have become for tourism, and yes I am at the stage where I think if any new fees, taxes, etc. are added its going to start killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If you keep raising fees and taxes, people will pro-actively not choose the city for conventions on that basis alone.

I wasn't referring to you, the comment was made by nashville_bound. But for giggles I researched a rental in Nashville and mine was quite different.....

Per Day Total

Economy - Hyundai Accent or similar $18.99 $37.98

Taxes, Fees and Surcharges $3.20 $6.40

Rental Car Total

Edited March 25, 2013 by producer2

[volsfanwill]

I for one was hopping that the flooding of Opry mills would be taken as a sign, and that it would be demolished and a new Opryland built in its place. Most of my friends where in agreement on this.  

Surprisingly though, while I lived in Knoxville I was surprised at how many people would travel to Nashville just to go shopping at Opry Mills.  The advertising for it is so good that people will travel 3 hours to shop at most of the same stores that are at the local mall, and honestly the outlet mall in pigeon forge fills in most of those spaces. My also people repeatedly told me how it was the biggest mall in the state, so I must have more stores in it. I always had to tell them that Nashville has or had (since Hickory Hollow is no more) 3 bigger malls and Knoxville s own West  Town Mall  was in fact the largest.

Sorry for the Opry mills tangent. I hate that place...

I agree Nashville needs a new theme park.  As a comparison though, Dollywood was nothing in comparison to Opryland when it closed, but in the last decade and a half Dollywood has added a new ride nearly every year and honestly is now bigger than Opryland was. The first time I visited Dollywood I had this horrible image in my mind that it was just some cheap hillbilly knockoff of Opryland.  Then I had a great time. Dollywood has become a destination theme park now, and any new one in Nashville would actually have to compete. An average mid summer  trip to Dollywood you will see licence plates from the entire midwest, (east TN is a huge vacation spot for Ohio for some reason) and most of the east coast, including way more from New York than you would ever expect. 

[Justiceham]

Hamilton Place is currently undergoing a major remodel. No new anchors announced, but rumor has it that Cool Springs Galleria has been selected for a new anchor. Von Maur is currently scouting the area to open its first Tennessee store. Can you say traffic!

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Unfortunately Plants, Sites, and Parks Magazine did a piece on the demise of theme parks. Maybe re-opening Opryland or another theme park would be a mistake.

[bwithers1]

Indianapolis has a good-sized convention center and it is quite common for conventions to sell out all of the downtown hotel rooms.  The Indianapolis convention center has a Westin and a J.W. Marriott hotel that are across the street from the convention center, plus there are quite a few downtown hotels large and small that sell out with their convention business.    The Indianapolis convention center is also sort-of attached to Lucas Oil Stadium.  To my mind, Indy has gotten a few things right that Nashville could learn from, particularly with their emphasis on downtown retail and marketing their nearby urban neighborhoods (Mass Ave Arts District, Indiana Ave African American Historic District, Lockerbie Square Historic District, Fountain Square Arts District - which includes an historic bowling alley) to tourists.  Indy is now ranked as one of the most bike-friendly cities in the US.

 

Back in Nashville, Gaylord has just gone through a major change of business model.  I don't think that it is the case that they "don't want" to work with Dolly Parton.  They have a lot on their plate right now and I am hearing that they are laying off quite a few people as they are transitioning their hotel operations over to Marriott.   Maybe they will have a stronger emphasis on entertainment offerings in the near future, but I am skeptical about theme parks as a business model overall.  I am also not certain how much additional traffic could fit onto McGavock Pike in order to handle a theme park in addition to Opry Mills.

Here are some regional cities in the range of Nashville's population that wouldn't benefit as much from a new convention center investment: Cincinnati, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Columbus, Birmingham. Why are these cities not good options? Neither of them are a destination/tourism city. Each of these cities do have major events that draw people, but a convention center would just be for the sake of building one instead of supplementing a huge tourism industry that already exists. Nashville, New Orleans, and Las Vegas - however - are cities that have different economies and different cultural draws. Nashville is in this class of city where the MCC makes sense to invest in.

 

I agree with the construction of the MCC, but I don't agree with any new taxes or fees to pay for its operations. Trust me, with a destination city like Nashville that already is a top tier convention location, there shouldn't be a need for local government to fund any more services for the MCC. The facility is so nice it'll sell itself, and the city being the type of city it is will draw conventions with less effort.

 

Edit: What would help Nashville more than anything right now would be for there to be a new amusement park to be built. I know last year there was almost a successful venture between Dollywood and Gaylord Entertainment to build something east of Briley Pkwy beside the Opry Mills site. Nashville desperately needs to rebuild an amusement park of some kind so that it can have all the proper amenities a destination city should have. With it being Nashville, any amusement park would be more than just a roller coaster park, but some kind of underlying theme, obviously related to music in Nashville's case. I know the city has limited means of creating this, but they can at least create better conditions for it to happen, or shop around for willing partners and get them to the table to talk to each other. Sounds to me like Gaylord enterprises is a pretty demanding company if they couldn't work with someone like Dolly Parton...

[producer2]

Indianapolis has a good-sized convention center and it is quite common for conventions to sell out all of the downtown hotel rooms.  The Indianapolis convention center has a Westin and a J.W. Marriott hotel that are across the street from the convention center, plus there are quite a few downtown hotels large and small that sell out with their convention business.    The Indianapolis convention center is also sort-of attached to Lucas Oil Stadium.  To my mind, Indy has gotten a few things right that Nashville could learn from, particularly with their emphasis on downtown retail and marketing their nearby urban neighborhoods (Mass Ave Arts District, Indiana Ave African American Historic District, Lockerbie Square Historic District, Fountain Square Arts District - which includes an historic bowling alley) to tourists.  Indy is now ranked as one of the most bike-friendly cities in the US.

 

Back in Nashville, Gaylord has just gone through a major change of business model.  I don't think that it is the case that they "don't want" to work with Dolly Parton.  They have a lot on their plate right now and I am hearing that they are laying off quite a few people as they are transitioning their hotel operations over to Marriott.   Maybe they will have a stronger emphasis on entertainment offerings in the near future, but I am skeptical about theme parks as a business model overall.  I am also not certain how much additional traffic could fit onto McGavock Pike in order to handle a theme park in addition to Opry Mills.

 

Very true about Indy, in fact they just spent millions in renovations to their convention center and are known in the industry to have one of the best hotel/meeting space packages in the country. Charlotte has just invested a lot as well. Brandon is correct in many of his thoughts on how Nashville is a branded City and does have a particular strong draw in the tourism industry. the one sticking point many of us have debated is who is actually picking up the tab for much of this. Even then most folks don't really care what the tax percentage is they really only care about the bottom line and so far pricing is still very reasonable for hotel rooms in a City like Nashville. Sure it costs more during CMA week, etc. but that is not a tax issue its a occupancy issue.

[BrandonTO416]

If you rent from a non-airport location, yes, the fees are lower. But if you rent from airport - where the vast majority of tourists rent cars from - Nashville's fees and taxes add up to over 52%. Again, more than most airports in major cities in Europe.

 

My opinion on other cities is rooted in branding. If you're in Germany, many people know about Nashville. If you're in London, people know about Nashville. Its more likely to get conventions since its well known.

 

I would question the use of spending a lot of taxpayer dollars in other cities, but that's just my opinion. I hope Indy recoups those costs.

[producer2]

Brandon,

Agree with you with one caveat. Most folks don't care that the tax is 52%, they only care about the cost to rent. If the cost to rent was 52% higher overall, then you have a problem.

[bwithers1]

As far as I can tell, Indy is doing well with their convention business.  Like Nashville, Indy had a fairly strong convention business to begin with and has been making investments to stay in that game.  They may not be all that well known in Europe, but it is probably true that their conventioneers aren't mostly coming from Europe.  Neither are most of Nashville's tourists coming from outside of North America, although we may get some international conventioneers who utilize our convention center outside of the obvious international leisure tourists. 

 

But Indy is a huge sports and entertainment town and it is well located within a short flight or even driving distance of about 1/2 of the US population, much like Nashville and just about all other towns in the central/east part of the US.   Indy calls itself "The Crossroads of America" due to its location on I-65, I-70, and I-74, similar to Nashville's with I-65, I-40 and I-24.  In terms of culture, there is not a ton of live music, to be certain, but I would say that their arts scene is similar to Nashville's and Indy is very much a sports town with basketball being probably #1 overall, but also auto racing and Colts football and the Indianapolis Indians baseball team.  Not big for Europeans, I know, but these are big deals for Midwesterners and all of the transplanted Southerners who live between Nashville and Chicago and are likely to keep their facilities busy year-round. 

 

On a more nation-wide level, Indianapolis just built a brand new LEED-certified airport and is coming off of a massive amount of public spending on facitilities and infrastructure that led up to their hosting of the Superbowl.   The question for Indy isn't whether their city is equipped to compete for national touring acts and conventions - they are - but whether private industry will pick up strongly enough with hiring to take up the economic slack now that most of the public-sector building is taking a rest.  Like Nashville, Indy is struggling to get large enough quantities of people to move downtown to stem the tide of suburban sprawl.  And like Nashville, Indy is struggling with implementing public transit beyond a bus system.  They do have an elevated "people mover" that goes between the various hospitals in their medical district but that is it for now.

 

Part of my reasons for talking about Indy in this context are that Nashville may be the "it" city at this moment, but frankly there are several cities with some similarities to Nashville that are up-and-coming as well. Let's not rest on our laurels because we are known for our music, which many commentators on this board seem to loathe anyway.

[BrandonTO416]

I'm not fond of country music myself, but there's nothing wrong with the genre. I have friends and family that won't listen to anything else, to each their own.

 

Edit: I also wouldn't discount the popularity of country music outside our borders. Canadians? Huge country fanbase there. Europe? Yes, huge fanbase there. Country artists who go there tend to sell out. Not my music, but hey I do think it deserves the recognition that it brings. It isn't just a regional music, its international.

Edited March 25, 2013 by BrandonTO416

[UTgrad09]

Great thoughts on Indy, Brett. And you are absolutely right, we should not rest on our laurels.

As for comparison cities, the cities I like to look at are all ahead of us (not to say that we can't be caught, but I generally think we should look ahead rather than behind). Austin, Charlotte, Columbus, Indianapolis. They are all a little bit bigger than us...the first two are growing a bit faster, the latter two, we're catching up to (slowly). Two cities define the Sunbelt boom, two cities defy the Rustbelt decline. I think each has good and bad elements we can learn from. We're similar enough to them that it provides a reasonable comparison...I really dislike it when I see Nashville officials compare something about us to Portland, Oregon, when in reality the two cities have almost nothing in common. Same goes for Denver. I guess the idea is that you don't want to set your eyes on some Sunbelt sprawlopolis...but I don't think there is much we can apply from those locales.

But to get off of that point...your last comment made me think...we want for Nashville to be known for music and....______. We're known nationally and internationally for our music brand. While I think it would be wise for the city to continue to embrace that role, expanding it to other arts/entertainment is good...but what about our old Athens of the South moniker? Obviously we're way behind Raleigh-Durham as far as power players in that department...but we have a great number of institutions...something I wish we would emphasize more often.

[BrandonTO416]

^I lived in Portland for a job from summer 2007-spring 2008. Its a great city, but its very suburban. Yes it has a genuinely urban core, yes it has MAX, but there is so much NIMBY'ism in that city its mindblowing. I love Portland, don't get me wrong, but it isn't the urban utopia people think it is. I commonly smile when people idealize the city now, because I used to do the same, then I was there for an extended period.

 

When I lived in Portland, I wanted to be involved. So, I ended up attending some hearings in Beaverton, where I lived at the time. In Portland you'd think its all 'urban' until you go to a city meeting and hear the screeching and screaming over how they shouldn't dare build a damned 15 story condo in the middle of our perfect little town right on the MAX line that was built specifically for that purpose. I thought this was just a suburban phenomenon, but then I started paying attention to city meetings. If you dared to try and build a highrise condo building outside the immediate downtown core of Portland, there would be hell to pay at planning meetings.

 

Portland is not as progressive as it seems on the surface. If you want a truly urban oriented city in that region, Vancouver is the place to be. Portland is like a small town, cute, quaint, but its citizens don't want it to grow that greatly. Vancouver on the other hand, if a developer wants to build something usually they will get the approval without much hoopla at city meetings. Vancouver is truly a progressive urban giant in that region of our continent. Portland? I went away far less impressed than when I arrived. Still a great town, but man its hard to build anything there. I found myself driving to Vancouver quite frequently when I was out there, felt like a much larger city despite the similar population.

 

Again, its not a critique, I'm just reporting to you the reality after living there. I've been fortunate in the past decade to live in Chicago, Portland, Pittsburgh, and now here in Buffalo. Comparing and contrasting all these different cities and regions has been most interesting. Portland is a city I'd love to visit again, but I don't think I'd ever move back there. It isn't a perfect urban utopia as its advertised.

Edited March 26, 2013 by BrandonTO416

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Interesting Brandon, however besides Chicago, I would take Portland over Pittsburgh or Buffalo any day of the week.

[nashvillwill]

This is news to me, apparently there is a plan in the works to convert 5th Ave to a 2-way street.

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/more-meetings-planned-discuss-avenue-arts-proposed-two-way-street

Just wanted to see what you guys thought about it. Personally, I am against it. No particular reason, other than preserving what's left of the "old" feel of downtown. Also, from a bike/pedestrian standpoint, it reduces conflict. Less turning to watch out for. I like one-way's and I think we should be converting towards more, not less.

Just curious what you guys think.

[spenser1058]

Unfortunately Plants, Sites, and Parks Magazine did a piece on the demise of theme parks. Maybe re-opening Opryland or another theme park would be a mistake.

 

Given that in Orlando and LA all the major theme parks are expanding rapidly and having some of their best years ever (including Disney, Universal, Legoland), I was a bit surprised by this.

 

Today's Sentinel posts the following about Sea World (which also includes Busch Gardens and Sesame Place and the Aquatica water parks) profits:

 

SeaWorld Entertainment's profit soars on increases in revenue and attendance

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-seaworld-profits-triple-20130326,0,899239.story

 

This seems to include excellent results in places like San Antonio and Williamsburg (not just FL and CA), so I have to wonder about "the demise of theme parks." I wonder if the article you referred to (I tried to find it via Bing and was unsuccessful) was referring to consolidation in the industry or something. 

[UTgrad09]

My quick thought on theme parks:

They overbuilt them in the past. They started to lose their 'draw' since so many places had them. Now that several have closed, I think the remaining ones can thrive.

Sidenote: I don't care if they bring back all of Opryland...I just want Chaos. Just one single, but very awesome ride. They really should've incorporated that into the mall.

Maybe they can build a new one...downtown!

[BnaBreaker]

WOW...Chaos...I remember being at Opryland the day it opened.  What a line!  But it was worth the wait.  I had never experienced anything like it. 

 

"Please move quickly to the station.  Your time is running out."

 

Check this out:

 

 

It is a 'point of view' perspective of the ride "REVOLUTION" which is the sister ride (i.e. the exact same ride) of Chaos, which still stands at an amusement park in Belgium. 

Edited March 27, 2013 by BnaBreaker

[TheRaglander]

You know.  When it comes to family entertainment I am really disappointed in Nashville.  My family and I have the best times in places like Chattanooga and Gatlinburg.  I wish downtown Nashville would have more family options.  (BTW - I am not suggesting we turn into a t-shirt/go-cart mecca like Pigeon Forge)  There just isn't a lot for families in Nashville.  

- The Zoo: It's a good zoo.  We have a season pass.

- Science Center: It's ok one time.  The exhibits get a little stale and need work.

- Nashville Shores: Eh, it's trying.  Bless it's heart.

 

I would love to see Nashville use it's 1st Ave. land for Chattanooga-like riverfront development.  Or what about a museum not in the basement of another building with some real headlining exhibits?  But downtown is a great place for country music and the 21+ crowd.  It's just not terrific to draw in families.  We love staying in downtown Chattanooga and have 2 aquariums, kids science museum, zoo, baseball park and IMAX theater.  For us that's a 1-2 night stay and we drop some $$$ in the city during that time.  (Esp if we hit Rock City or Lake Winnie) 

 

I don't see an amusement park coming to the mid-state.  Families will travel to Atlanta, Pigeon Forge, Holiday World... and maybe even back to Louisville one day.  No one will build anything here.

 

Sorry about the rant.  This weekend we head to Atlanta to drop more "family dollars" at a different city with a lot more to offer families.  It would be great if we could pull in out-of-state family dollars in Nashville.  

[Neigeville]

This is news to me, apparently there is a plan in the works to convert 5th Ave to a 2-way street.http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/more-meetings-planned-discuss-avenue-arts-proposed-two-way-streetJust wanted to see what you guys thought about it. Personally, I am against it. No particular reason, other than preserving what's left of the "old" feel of downtown. Also, from a bike/pedestrian standpoint, it reduces conflict. Less turning to watch out for. I like one-way

a's and I think we should be converting towards more, not less.Just curious what you gus think.

I hate one way streets, they make it frustrating to travel unfamiliar routes & I think they encourage drivers to drive too fast. Whatever makes drivers nervous & alert I'm in favor of.

[UTgrad09]

The SoBro plan basically calls for the end of almost all of the one way streets with the notable exceptions of 4th and 2nd.

I'm mixed on it. I actually like one way streets if they are not overused. I like them in pairs (like 4th and 2nd)...they can effectively move traffic in the same way a boulevard does if they are used in pairs like that. But yes, if there are a bunch of them, it makes things overly confusing. Because so much of Nashville's grid is broken up, it's probably best that we don't have an abundance of them.

[BrandonTO416]

In terms of entertainment options, because Nashville Shores exists I would hope a new water park isn't what Gaylord ends up building. I too questioned why - if they were replacing an amusement park with a mall - why they didn't just save some of the rides that could be saved and incorporate it into a Mall of America like experience. Maybe the Opryland rides were just too large for the most part, but Chaos is a great example of something they could have saved and incorporated into the mall.

[bwithers1]

I definitely agree with you on the 1st Ave idea.  Due to the terrain, it's hard to say that Nashville can put a whole lot of structures on the riverfront side of 1st Ave other than at the Thermal Plant site.  We'll see if the city can pull off the amphitheater idea or something else while heeding Mayor Dean's promise not to raise property tax rates.    There are something like 19 components of the MDHA Riverfront Development plan, but my council member said that funding for those next phases is far from a certainty in this year's capital spending plan.

 

I would love to see a sculpture garden along the bluff parts near 1st similar to what Chattanooga has, but then Nashville is notoriously anti-art.  Again, someone would have to donate the art.  Oh wait, someone donated Musica at the roundabout and Nashvillians still hate that. 

 

But I do think that private development on some of those parking lots facing 1st in Sobro could yield a lot more interest and pedestrian activity there.  But its up to private development to do that.  I would also love to see Rutledge Hill fill up with independent/boutique B&Bs and artist shops kind of like the Bluff View Arts District in Chattanooga.  That may also be up to the private market up there unless the city incentivizes that kind of thing through the redevelopment districts.

 

As for comparisons to Chattanooga, I have a couple of questions.  Where is the second aquarium that you mention?  Also, was the TN Aquarium paid for with State dollars or local dollars?  Also, out of curiosity, have you visited Nashville's children's museum or children's theater?  The reason that I ask is that I am trying to convince my sister that I-65 really does run in two directions and that she should bring my nephew down here sometime this summer.

 

Nashville's IMAX is out in the Opryland area, which for better or worse WAS the family-oriented side of Nashville for so many decades that that will be a hard trend to overcome.  Likewise, you're right that downtown was the Adult (with a capital A) district for so long that we are having a tough time reversing that course.

 

But in all seriousness, Chattanooga does have lots to offer your family for a weekend stay.  But odds are that if you lived in Chattanooga, you would go through those options in a relatively short time period, get bored with those, and drive to another city occasionally for a change of pace, too.  I think that it is human nature to do that in just about any city.  I'm a history buff, and I'm ashamed that there are so many plantation homes and other historic sites in and around Nashville that I haven't yet visited.  Nashville has a lot to offer people, including families, but I still need to get out of here periodically in order to get perspective.

 

 

I would love to see Nashville use it's 1st Ave. land for Chattanooga-like riverfront development.  Or what about a museum not in the basement of another building with some real headlining exhibits?  But downtown is a great place for country music and the 21+ crowd.  It's just not terrific to draw in families.  We love staying in downtown Chattanooga and have 2 aquariums, kids science museum, zoo, baseball park and IMAX theater.  For us that's a 1-2 night stay and we drop some $$$ in the city during that time.  (Esp if we hit Rock City or Lake Winnie) 

Edited March 27, 2013 by bwithers1

[BrandonTO416]

People hate Musica? I've never heard anyone say they dislike it.

[UTgrad09]

People hate Musica? I've never heard anyone say they dislike it.

 

When it came out, some of the rubes talked about how it was tasteless or whatever because, *gasp*, there was nudity! It was dubbed "Nudica."

 

But I think most people either have a neutral or positive opinion of it. Now that the newness has worn off, I think so have the negative attitudes.