Waterside District

[HRVT]

I don't love it, but I didn't expect to ever love it to be honest.  It of course is better than the food court layout. I was hoping they would extend the building some how. Justifying parking will be a challenge.

I will say, Power Planet Live here in Bmore would definitely be a game changer for Norfolk and the 757 period.  There is nothing even close to that in that region, I would go as far and say not even richmond. What I'm a little thrown off by is all the talk about being family friendly, to this model that is 100% completely the opposite.  I'm encouraging it, still with these plans I do not understand the 18 month build process.. Must be a small crew as it should take that long for what they drew up on those schematics.

 

IMO, this project is looking more and more like Jacksonville Landing in Jacksonville,FL than the Baltimore Power Plant. Not a bad thing, and probably a more suitable venue for the area.

Edited June 1, 2014 by HRVT

[brikkman]

I guess we are not going to get any details of what this will actually do and serve other than "entertainment".  Not even a total number of possible tenants

[brikkman]

Well its official, Cordish has listed Waterside Live as their development:

http://www.cordish.com/sub.cfm?section=newdev

[757Duke]

Outback Steakhouse is officially moving out of Waterside, and Joe's Crab Shack appears to be getting the boot. It's now down to Hooter's, and I don't think they'll last much longer in there given the revamp. http://hamptonroads.com/2014/08/waterside-outback-closes-norfolk-wants-joes-out

[brikkman]

Hooters fit into the plan, those restaurants do not.

This isn't shocking at all. What I would be interested to see is, how long can hooters or will hooters move out before they start the construction. My guess, they will subsidize them in some manner.  If waterside is to mimic powerplant live here in Bmore, certainly Hooters falls into that plan...

[HRVT]

Hooters fit into the plan, those restaurants do not.

This isn't shocking at all. What I would be interested to see is, how long can hooters or will hooters move out before they start the construction. My guess, they will subsidize them in some manner.  If waterside is to mimic powerplant live here in Bmore, certainly Hooters falls into that plan...

For what it's worth, Jacksonville Landing also has a Hooters. They seem to be a good chain fit for this type of venue. 

 

Ultimately, I just hope there are a few decent nicer places to go when this is all said and done.

[BFG]

Honestly, I want options that I can't necessarily find in Chesapeake or Greenbrier, although I did like having an Outback and Hooters downtown. But I'd like more options that aren't already elsewhere in HR. Bringing back Phillips Seafood would be awesome.

 

Furthermore, I just want the project to be over with already. Too many delays.

[BFG]

Here's an update from WAVY called "The Future of Waterside". Not really much new to report...

http://wavy.com/2014/10/20/a-look-at-the-future-of-waterside/

[carolinaboy]

NOt to bump a thread but is anything happening with this?

[lil-bear]

^{Why in the world are they waiting so long to start? UGH}

[vdogg]

^{Why in the world are they waiting so long to start? UGH}

I'm glad it's taking a long time. Maybe it'll fall through and we can find something better.

[brikkman]

NOt to bump a thread but is anything happening with this?

Nope, what Cordish is doing is anyone's guess at this point:

http://wtkr.com/2014/10/31/keys-officially-handed-over-to-company-that-will-create-waterside-live/

 

 

Just moments ago, city staff turned over the Waterside Festival Marketplace keys to The Cordish Companies representative. The handoff marks the end of an era and an exciting new chapter for the City of Norfolk and Waterside.

 

That was Oct.

[zeppelin14]

According to the State of the City Address, construction will begin this Spring with a completion date of Summer 2016.

[HRVT]

According to the State of the City Address, construction will begin this Spring with a completion date of Summer 2016.

I'll believe it when construction actually begins. I believe this is the third time where "Construction is about to begin!!" only for the time to come and go sans construction. As VDogg says above. The longer this drags out, hopefully the more likely this project will die and we can have a fresh idea. Waterside should be demolished. Town Point Park should be expanded for now... while some other idea is conceived. Perhaps something that takes the footprint of Waterside AND the dying Sheraton next door.

[Ghentite]

This will continue to be delayed.  Hearing Cordish is having a hard time attracting new tenants as the whole "entertainment super center" concept is getting old and is losing money in other cities.  They are contemplating turning some of the proposed commercial space into residential.  If the city is ever going to pull out and open things back up to other developers, this is a prime opportunity. 

[BFG]

Get rid of this and maybe the Sheraton, and build an office tower along the water to lure a Fortune 500 company. Expand some of the space to create a larger Town Point park, maybe with a fountain, but I'm done with this project...it's been more than five years and the city has not found a suitable replacement. 

 

I say get rid of City Council too...what was the point of that survey, the one where nobody wanted another Waterside, but they went with the concept anyway? 

[Ghentite]

Sorry. I can't put his/her name out there. Just thought I'd share what I heard with you all.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ghentite

[HRVT]

Sorry. I can't put his/her name out there. Just thought I'd share what I heard with you all.

Certainly not surprising to hear. We all saw what happened in Hampton too. Was supposed to be a prime time entertainment destination. Instead, there's a Joe's Crab Shack and two clubs (along with Lowes and BJs). Not bad, but not the entertainment mecca it was supposed to be. I'm not surprised that they're having trouble getting tenants here, and I had figured as much given how we haven't heard anything in about a year. And the last time we heard anything was more of a "hey folks... still coming!".  Waterside Live was a flawed concept from the start kept alive by nostalgia for a "unique"* venue. As said above, demolish Waterside and the Sheraton and let's try our hand at a new tallest office tower with a Fortune 500 company (optimistically... easier said than done I know) or maybe a condo tower. That along with an expanded Towne Point Park would be a huge net gain vs attempting to revive a dead concept.

 

 

 

*A venue so unique, it has a twin in Baltimore.

[brikkman]

Certainly not surprising to hear. We all saw what happened in Hampton too. Was supposed to be a prime time entertainment destination. Instead, there's a Joe's Crab Shack and two clubs (along with Lowes and BJs). Not bad, but not the entertainment mecca it was supposed to be. I'm not surprised that they're having trouble getting tenants here, and I had figured as much given how we haven't heard anything in about a year. And the last time we heard anything was more of a "hey folks... still coming!".  Waterside Live was a flawed concept from the start kept alive by nostalgia for a "unique"* venue. As said above, demolish Waterside and the Sheraton and let's try our hand at a new tallest office tower with a Fortune 500 company (optimistically... easier said than done I know) or maybe a condo tower. That along with an expanded Towne Point Park would be a huge net gain vs attempting to revive a dead concept.

 

 

 

*A venue so unique, it has a twin in Baltimore.

After a long thought process, waterside - LIKE is better for that area than a tower and oh God please not another condo complex. Fact is, without it, Norfolk lacks balance for entertainment and say what you will, cities need entertainment. Sure this is a mesh up bad choices and a demo team that is too legit to quit, but it is what is left. If you look at their plans NOW, there is not much in the way of entertainment. If they had left the bars alone and done away with the food court vibe, waterside would still be thriving on some level right now IMO. We've debated this time and time again, but the initial failure of waterside came from them not changing with the time and Va. Beach coming into their own. People forgot in the early 80 and beginning of the 90s, there wasn't much in the way to do in the area outside of DT Norfolk and waterside. Hell even OCEAN VIEW was a destination for water sports then. I grew up not too far from there, my mom and I use to walk to waterside at least twice a month, so i saw it with my own eyes. People say it was the mall, people say it was the traffic, nope, it was the management of waterside not understanding how time changed. Waterside could compliment entertainment and sub entertainment for festivals, its Important, otherwise it will remain a dead area. Rip that away and you have Nauticus... how often does a person visit a museum, then lets factor in it being Nauticus. I do not think that is sustainable.

With that being said, I'm hoping this is just some pre construction jitters, the 757 needs it although a lot may not agree.

[carolinaboy]

Kill it. Kill it with Fire.

 

Heres what I would do.

 

Yellow = Elizabeth River Center at Town Point Park

• Portion of building remains
• Attached to parking garage
• City Owned
• Part of TPP
• Restroom facilities for TPP
• City-run marina
• Restroom and shower facilities for boaters
• Privately owned seafood restaurant/market
• Information/tourism center
• Privately owned boaters supply store
• farmers markets (seasonal)

Red = Waterfront Condo Towers (x2)

• Existing building removed
• Property sold to private developer
• Start with one condo tower (24 to 34 stories)
• Parking garage underneath (5 to 6 stories)
• Private marina for unit owners
• More people living downtown
• Unique waterfront location
• If successful construction of twin tower commences
• If successful may spur owner of Sheraton to raize building and sell or develop additional residential towers

Purple = Entertainment Complex at MacArthur Mall

• This is where "waterside live" ends up
• Does not compete with mall as a separate facility
• Complements mall and brings more people to it
• Utilizes existing parking garages
• Brings more people to downtown core
• Bleedover would benefit businesses in the area
• Near (closer to) residential areas thatn waterfront
• Access to the Tide!
• People can walk there easier than to the waterfront
• Close to other DT entertainment facilities (Scope, Chrysler Hall, Norva)
• Closeness to Monticello Ave, Granby St

Green = Entertainment Green/Park

• Provides some buffering to adjacent residences
• Gathering spot for entertainment complex
• Provides additional open space for DT residents
• Seasonal markets, etc.

What else can you guys think of?

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by carolinaboy

[HRVT]

I actually really like your idea. Ultimately, for there to be a twin tower in the "red zone", the Sheraton would have to be demolished as there is just not enough room for a 24-34 story condo tower in the current red zone alone. After that, it's unlikely that there would be room left for a third tower... and if so, that's about it. Even so, I think it would be nice to provide a little buffer zone between Dominion Tower and the condo and/or office towers that would be put there. I like the idea of expanding on Towne Point Park (which is part of what demolishing the Sheraton would do... which would be allowed with the completion of the Hilton). The idea of putting the entertainment district in the "3rd anchor" footprint at MacArthur is also a very interesting idea. That could help tie together/upgrade the Granby St/Scope/Wells Fargo Tower district. 

 

I think what you propose for the "yellow zone" would need a little more space, but I especially like the idea of putting the farmers (and/or maybe fish market) there. Fraknly, your idea combines a lot of the ideas that have been put together already. And I think proposals that involve the removal of the Sheraton are going to happen more and more once the Hilton is built and puts it out of its misery.

[K76T]

Carolinaboy, I really like your proposals.

 

I see so much potential for downtown and a lot of your ideas would elevate Norfolk big-time.

 

It would be awesome if Portsmouth would build a couple towers on that side of the water to compliment your ideas for Norfolk.

[skylinefan]

I like the Waterside Live proposal because it opens up Waterside to the water and adds badly needed restaurants and entertainment to a underutilized area.  It could work if the city would find a way to improve access to the site from the rest of Downtown.  Why is Waterside Dr. so wide and intimidating to pedestrians?  I would suggest implementing traffic calming changes to Waterside Drive to encourage cars to slow down as they race to get home to Virginia Beach.  Add bike lanes, widen sidewalks, integrate Waterside into the surrounding area.  I think this would work and send the message that Waterside and Town Point Park are places to hang out and enjoy.   

[carolinaboy]

I like the Waterside Live proposal because it opens up Waterside to the water and adds badly needed restaurants and entertainment to a underutilized area.  It could work if the city would find a way to improve access to the site from the rest of Downtown.  Why is Waterside Dr. so wide and intimidating to pedestrians?  I would suggest implementing traffic calming changes to Waterside Drive to encourage cars to slow down as they race to get home to Virginia Beach.  Add bike lanes, widen sidewalks, integrate Waterside into the surrounding area.  I think this would work and send the message that Waterside and Town Point Park are places to hang out and enjoy.   

All good ideas. That's really my only criticism of TPP and Waterside....it does feel a little cut off from the rest of downtown to me.

[brikkman]

The problem I have with building condos or another tower on that property is that you are closing people off from the river. No one outside of DT is going to pay to go to TPP outside of a festival.  Condo owners would enjoy it and marginally the people who frequent Nauticus.  DT nucleus isn't that big to afford that IMO. Looking at the closed options at harbor park and spq, I do not think that would be optimum to build towers and condos on that plot of land.  I did want them to tear it down to rebuild something that was more conducive to what they wanted to attract, but I could live with Cordish vision of opening it up and making it more free flowing.. I would have like to see them extend part of it waterside drive as well.