Waterside District

[omegastar]

Rocktop, the sticking points will be the razing of waterside, the conference center, and parking issues.

You will have a much better chance if you could alter you plans to co-exist with waterside. Also, the conference center idea should probably be a compromise of a pavillion that offers entertainment first with substantial space for conference meetings. I say market it as a entertainment venue.

Your hotel could be designed to share conference space with the pavillion thus creating an appealing alternative for the city.

Your plans sounds great but changes will have to be made if you want the city to take your plan seriously.

It would be great if Harvey Lindsay would also come aboard and build his office tower and perhaps his proposed hotel.

Let us know what happens Rocktop, we are all pulling for you!

[brikkman]

I think you would need to move fairly quickly to even been considered for such a plan if you are indeed serious. Urbanlife would be a great source, he has an eye for this thing and does it for a living. He is also a local who lives in portland now, so he has great perspective.

Whatever you choose to do, do it quickly and much luck to you. I would love to see waterside razed, however, not to be replaced with more park. I think TPP is the perfect size for the DT area, anything bigger is really a waste of space IMO. Keep in mind, DT only has about 3500 residents, that's not going to chance drastically in the next ten years as I see it. So a bigger park IMO its just a waste of potential. I think what people like about your plan, or will like, will is that it addresses the sheraton which everyone on this board hates, lol. I think most of us hate waterside as it stands now as well. To me, and staying consistent with the parking issues in DT, I think waterside should be razed (and sheraton) and made into a real destination. I would address everything DT is missing and spruce it up.

I would create a new hotel with oberservation deck (kind of like the light house you suggested). Anothe rpart facing TPP all glass, lighted. Part of it would be a 4 to 5 floor structure, expanding down to waterside drive. Cutting down the valet area to be really a valet area, but maximizing the entire area's foot print. I would add a skating ring, an urban bowling alley, small ball room, resturants, clubs, and a small outdoor area to address nice days, families, and gatherings. I would even consider an urban ceni-cafe, two screens. I would address the port, even extend the new building more towards the river. I would add river front resturants (seating) and a small footprint stage that sites literally on the water for bands and acts. I would budget out a million a year for entertainment, nothing but local free acts to be book throughout the year to keep people interested, lively, coming and hanging out.

So major points being address: (how to we keep it a 12 month venue, instead of 2 season venue).

• Expand the foot print north and south, while add levels and create a court yard to flow into the park.
  
• Create an area outside at three points (waterside drive, westside facing park, and south at the marina) where outdoor acts and activities can take place
  
• Expanding the venue upward will allow for more things sto be incorporated which would be important considering the location and parking challenges. Again, it needs to be its own destination.
  
• RETAIN an entertainment fund to keep the area lively, this at the expense of free talent to showcase their skils (dancers, live music,) 1 million.
  

[vdogg]

Thnx for the feedback, the Waterside would be razed and converted to parkland. The pavilion would front the river and flow onto the park lawn complementing festivals, balls, concerts, civic events and conventions. These are preliminary plans with the goal of showing the city the potential of what can become a world class port of call rather than a food court. I’m working on putting together a presentation with artist’s renderings, conceptual drawings and photoshop pics before the city signs away our riverfront to outside developers like the state did with the tunnels. Any help would be appreciated.

Unfortunately the city seems pretty serious about the Cordish plan. There may be some other development opportunities along the waterfront but I really don't see them being swayed at this late date.

[omegastar]

Hey Vdogg, I know that the city raised money using meal taxes, etc, for a new conference center but didn't they do the same thing years ago for a new arena? I wish that we would focus on this instead of the conference center although I know the opposition will be just as fierce.

I think that Scope would be a great addition to a growing TCC downtown campus and could serve many uses. The city should offer them a chance at expanding it's downtown presence and build some on campus housing in anticipation of them becoming a 4 year institution.

[omegastar]

Anything new on waterside? I hope this isn't going to be another wait until the economy improves deal.

Harvey Lindsay would probably have already started construction if chosen. Damn we seem to make all the wrong choices!

On the other hand, good luck to Virginia Beach and I hope that they land the NBA. If it happens, I could see a new hotel developed in downtown Norfolk happening sooner than later. The area will need the hotel rooms to support professional sports.

[Ghentite]

I think the last we heard anything was City Council was going to begin negotiating with Cordish behind closed doors. Hopefully, that's happening now.

[vdogg]

Honestly I hope it all just quietly goes away. You'll never get me to like the Cordish proposal. Everytime I think of what HL was offering and what council finally decided on I get mad, there is simply no vision on this council.

[Ghentite]

This is all hypothetical but an interesting situation may arise. Cordish partnered with Comcast to build Xfinity Live in Philly, which Waterside will almost replicate minus the sports theme of everything. Comcast is behind this NBA to Va Beach push. Could VB/Comcast/Cordish work a deal to take this waterside proposal to the beach instead of Norfolk?

[BFG]

Honestly I hope it all just quietly goes away. You'll never get me to like the Cordish proposal. Everytime I think of what HL was offering and what council finally decided on I get mad, there is simply no vision on this council.

Same here. A hotel and/or office tower, 1,500 jobs, and the council balked. Unbelievable.

Waterside 3.0, ladies and gentlemen. Why they couldn't come up with a compromise of both ideas is beyond me.

This is all hypothetical but an interesting situation may arise. Cordish partnered with Comcast to build Xfinity Live in Philly, which Waterside will almost replicate minus the sports theme of everything. Comcast is behind this NBA to Va Beach push. Could VB/Comcast/Cordish work a deal to take this waterside proposal to the beach instead of Norfolk?

Didn't realize that, but I don't think Cordish will have a part in that, although I do believe Comcast wants to develop an entertainment complex. That would make sense to provide year-round entertainment. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing that, and Lindsay can develop downtown Norfolk.

Edited August 27, 2012 by BFG

[Ghentite]

Didn't realize that, but I don't think Cordish will have a part in that, although I do believe Comcast wants to develop an entertainment complex. That would make sense to provide year-round entertainment. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing that, and Lindsay can develop downtown Norfolk.

I think mostly everyone here would be onboard with that.

[Ghentite]

Ouch. Norfolk dropped the ball on this one big-time not going with the HL proposal. http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/norfolkbased-firm-would-anchor-va-beach-tower

[omegastar]

I guess the city of Norfolk doesn't need 300 or so new workers downtown.

Waterside 2 will last about 10-15 years before it is torn down. Who knows, maybe this is a blessing in disguise.

I just hope that we can salvage a large hotel on day in the future. That being said, I am happy to see Town Center getting a new tower.

Honestly, 14 stories doesn't exactly make me want to shout from the mountain tops.

[BFG]

Serves them right. When you go for the "safe" plan instead of thinking forward, you miss out...and for what, the same-ol, same-ol? Hopefully it's the slap in the face the city needs.

[Ghentite]

Hopefully it's the slap in the face the city needs.

That's exactly what I was thinking...

[varider]

Imagine what a 14-story tower would do for norfolk's city feel..DT norfolk is struggling

[vdogg]

So the Bowtie is surprised and disappointed that Clark Nexson is leaving downtown? Seriously? This is something that he is personally responsible for. Perhaps spending a little less time shilling for Cordish and a little more time on figuring out what is best for Norfolk was in order? Now he wants to cry about it? You just can't make this stuff up. It's only 14 floors but this would've been great for downtowns density.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/09/norfolkbased-firm-would-anchor-va-beach-tower

[Sky06]

Do you guys really believe the public (let alone the negative media) would stand for the city spending $76 million in public funds to develop the CN project? I kind of prefer that project over the others too, but it just wasn't going to happen. Nor should it in these days of government distrust. You can hardly blame the city for turning down that option. Shame on CN for thinking they got treated poorly. Really?

[mistermetaj]

Do you guys really believe the public (let alone the negative media) would stand for the city spending $76 million in public funds to develop the CN project? I kind of prefer that project over the others too, but it just wasn't going to happen. Nor should it in these days of government distrust. You can hardly blame the city for turning down that option. Shame on CN for thinking they got treated poorly. Really?

It's not as if CN wasn't proposing a fiscally acceptable plan though. Remember, their price tag was very much based on the convention center and "highline", both of which were for the city's good. The price the city had originially agreed to pay for the convention center at the Westin hotel site was actually more than what they would have had to pay with the Clark Nexsens proposal. The "highline" was strictly asthetic for the citizens and really gave something unique for Norfolk. Not to mention the chance to enhance the profile of HL an organically grown company and CN which has a strong presence here. There was no more public money being asked for by the Harvey Lindsay proposal that the city wasn't already willing to spend.

[virginia pe]

Do you guys really believe the public (let alone the negative media) would stand for the city spending $76 million in public funds to develop the CN project? I kind of prefer that project over the others too, but it just wasn't going to happen. Nor should it in these days of government distrust. You can hardly blame the city for turning down that option. Shame on CN for thinking they got treated poorly. Really?

Why criticize CN? The Waterside project was not CN's project, it was Harvey-Lindsay's. CN was just a player on the team.

Clark-Nexsen did not complain, and they did not claim that they were treated poorly. The simple fact is CN has to move. Their lease is up, and their current building is inadequate for their needs. In addition, they are no longer a suburban-office-park architectural firm. As the 132nd largest firm in the country, they are a central-business-district company. They are not going to move into someone else's building; they want to go into a building that they designed. Since Norfolk was not accommodating, what other choice did CN have?

Obviously, the powers that be feel they made the right choice for Norfolk. But shame on them for acting like a jilted lover because CN is moving to Virginia Beach.

[Ghentite]

http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/10/waterside-updateor-lack-thereof.html

[brikkman]

well, I'm definitely not shock about this update.

Same ole, new day.

If Va.beach had any good economic sense, they could scope a lot of good things from Norfolk........

[BFG]

ZZZZZZZZZZ

Oh well, what can you do, right?

[Ghentite]

When watching that last city council meeting where Cordish briefed, the one thing that stood out to me was that the council kept stressing the need to develop the land from Waterside all the way to Harbor Park and they saw this project as a catalyst to begin that development. So one positive is that they're not just looking at this as an entertainment complex, but they're looking at the big picture as well. I agree that they blew it with the HL proposal, but if this helps jumpstart development along the river, that's not a terrible consolidation prize. Only time will tell, I suppose.

[BFG]

Remember Waterside? Still no solution, but Council is supposedly "closer".

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/11/norfolk-councilman-tries-prod-waterside-talks

I'm sure it'll be done by 2018.

[brikkman]

No surprise here, this is exactly what I expected to be honest with any of the choices that were out there. For all the time it has taken, all the decisions made by few, same issues, same everything, they still seem to drag there feet. Because the 757 refuses to adopt a county systems, these council men and women should feel the biting pressure to do something smart and quick. MEANWHILE (in my justic league voice) Va.beach is building up slowly but surely, slowly turning into something they said they didn't want to be taking opps from Norfolk's foul ups. Collectively, they should be a shame of themselves for letting it ride out this long. You can best believe, although I feel Mr. Jones is a good man, he is definitely looking out for his best interest in this decision as well as the bus station foul up as well.

Honestly if this was all they were going to do, they should have given free reign to telmster and a few of these young companies who were looking for an opportunity to shine and see what they could do with it. Everyone complains about chains, homegrown and everyone is to blame one way or the other. At this point a park is looking good, at least they do not have to pay electricity and pumbing on grass..