Waterside District

[BFG]

As I said in the other thread, I thought the land next to Harbor Park was ideal for a new arena, or even in the SPQ plan. If VB goes ahead and builds an arena (team or not), I admit I'm going to have a good laugh for reasons you said above. The city always throws out the promises, then sits on them for years and years to come. It's almost like they're scared to pull the trigger.

I'm mostly liberal and live in Norfolk, but I was talking to my ex-g/f last night (she's in VB) and told her that, despite my politics, Sessoms would get my vote because of his vision and the fact that he's looking out for the other 6 cities as well, and realizes this area's potential.

Oberndorf did a lot for the city, and it seems that helped and hurt her at times. In a way, I felt she helped perpetuate the stereotypical VB snobbishness of "If it's not happening in VB, then it's not important", and in this kind of market, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

As for Waterside, I don't even care anymore what they do. They had a public poll, what, a year or two ago? 3,000 votes and they still need "more time". What was so tough about compromising between Cordish and Lindsay?

Edited November 6, 2012 by BFG

[brikkman]

As I said in the other thread, I thought the land next to Harbor Park was ideal for a new arena, or even in the SPQ plan. If VB goes ahead and builds an arena (team or not), I admit I'm going to have a good laugh for reasons you said above. The city always throws out the promises, then sits on them for years and years to come. It's almost like they're scared to pull the trigger.

I'm mostly liberal and live in Norfolk, but I was talking to my ex-g/f last night (she's in VB) and told her that, despite my politics, Sessoms would get my vote because of his vision and the fact that he's looking out for the other 6 cities as well, and realizes this area's potential.

Oberndorf did a lot for the city, and it seems that helped and hurt her at times. In a way, I felt she helped perpetuate the stereotypical VB snobbishness of "If it's not happening in VB, then it's not important", and in this kind of market, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

As for Waterside, I don't even care anymore what they do. They had a public poll, what, a year or two ago? 3,000 votes and they still need "more time". What was so tough about compromising between Cordish and Lindsay?

Yes it would have been much more acceptable to be waiting on a design and compromise for a cordish and lindsay development vs sitting on the supposed "easy" option and taking months to see who will manage the bathrooms and what kind of glass to use on the removed top(pun intended, but serious as well)

[mistermetaj]

First of all, I fully believe Burfoot was paid off by Cordish. Notice, he's the sound piece screaming to get this done and saying he's "glad Coridish is still on board." I'm sure they are threatening to cut off his under the table cut of the business they are getting from Norfolk if this doesn't go through soon.

Anyway, conspiracy theory aside, it's really all about vision. Norfolk's leaders just have a small town mentality. They don't push to make Norfolk attractive beyond their borders. All I heard was "what does the community want." Well you know what the "community" they should be trying to sell to is much greater than just Norfolk. It shouldn't make a difference that a few people are nostalgic for waterside from the 80s because the fact is, those people weren't supporting it, hence why it is the dump it is today.

It IS Virginia Beach residents they want to attract. It IS out of towners they want to attract. Waterside is not just for Norfolk the same way the arena (if built) won't be exclusively for Virginia Beach.

Even denying the whole HL proposal, the city still had a chance to add some cultural touches to be unique to Norfolk with the highline proposal from HL, and they didn't even think about keeping that portion of it.

[BFG]

Waterside Live agreement reached. http://hamptonroads....bring-1000-jobs

Yay?

ETA: I think this was mentioned in the VB arena thread, but this is very similar to a project in Philly called (wait for it) XFinity Live! The Cordish Company is behind that, and so is Comcast-Spectacor (the VB arena people). I'm really, really curious to see how that arena deal is going to play out, with Waterside happening in the next city over.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BFG

[brikkman]

Two things I find shocking about this who ordeal.

1. When its all said and done, will they apply the same Bar TASK force laws to these people they are negotiating with or quietly never send the troops to check in on their bars and nightlife? I mean, one has to question considering what was done to the other bars that technically could have been fixed...

2. People amaze me how they have their own rendition of the great debate "WHY WATERSIDE FAILED". You keep reading people saying people didn't come to waterside anymore because they didn't feel safe from the fights and shootings yet compared to the rest of the city, this was probably Last on that list of places with violent acts.

[BFG]

A few years ago, there was a huge outcry over a "massive increase" in crime downtown. You had a guy robbed and killed near the old Kirn library, someone else shot and killed after a dispute in the parking garage, then another shooting at Granby Theater.

Problem is, all three of those things could easily happen at Town Center or anywhere else. I just get tired of people's knee-jerk reactions to incidents that can happen anywhere. Waterside had its issues, but crime wasn't one of them.

[Ghentite]

During their brief to City Council, security was brought up. I think I remember Cordish saying that at night time, that their bars strictly enforce dress code and that they look for a clientele with a clean image. The obvious reasoning was that they want their locations to feel safe in order to draw in more customers.

[brikkman]

Now can someone tell me if if they ever finished their thought about the fountain that was filled in in front of the sheraton. Is it graced with art work yet?

[Ghentite]

Now can someone tell me if if they ever finished their thought about the fountain that was filled in in front of the sheraton. Is it graced with art work yet?

Haha no public art yet.

[brikkman]

Haha no public art yet.

Not surprised by it at all, I figured as much coming from the city.

IN other news:

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/12/experts-skeptical-1000jobs-claim-waterside

 

I do not think anyone on this board believes that this will generate a 1000 jobs....It may be miss leading on purpose to say eventually, a 1000 jobs will be created in building this place up, not 1000 New static jobs.

 

I would like to point out one thing, in the article, they pointed out new details about what Waterside 3.0 AKA Waterside LIVE will have. In terms of entertainment, what are they providing that the city council and its departments could not envision or do?

 

We have...well at least I have been saying for years that the city should support and provide free entertainment to waterside and Granby street. Set up stages and let people perform. I know there are tons and tons of talents and groups willing to do their thing on the stage if you give them the stage and electricity to do it. Everyone, including the council says they want to make it family friendly, but they can't conceputalize, "free shows put on by locals for free"? How hard of sell is that? Maybe they need to hire a part time NSU or ODU student who is taking up urban development and provide an internship to handle these things exactly. That would provide a fresh perspective, the leg work, and vested interest in such projects. They pon off this particular activity for no reason at all. This is one thing that I believe is holding DT Norfolk back. Simply solutions that you got an outside company to do for you.

[mistermetaj]

Not surprised by it at all, I figured as much coming from the city.

IN other news:

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/12/experts-skeptical-1000jobs-claim-waterside

 

I do not think anyone on this board believes that this will generate a 1000 jobs....It may be miss leading on purpose to say eventually, a 1000 jobs will be created in building this place up, not 1000 New static jobs.

 

I would like to point out one thing, in the article, they pointed out new details about what Waterside 3.0 AKA Waterside LIVE will have. In terms of entertainment, what are they providing that the city council and its departments could not envision or do?

 

We have...well at least I have been saying for years that the city should support and provide free entertainment to waterside and Granby street. Set up stages and let people perform. I know there are tons and tons of talents and groups willing to do their thing on the stage if you give them the stage and electricity to do it. Everyone, including the council says they want to make it family friendly, but they can't conceputalize, "free shows put on by locals for free"? How hard of sell is that? Maybe they need to hire a part time NSU or ODU student who is taking up urban development and provide an internship to handle these things exactly. That would provide a fresh perspective, the leg work, and vested interest in such projects. They pon off this particular activity for no reason at all. This is one thing that I believe is holding DT Norfolk back. Simply solutions that you got an outside company to do for you.

 

Nothing about that article surprises me.  First of all, I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Burfoot is playing with Cordish money under the table to push this through as hard as he can.  How can he possibly think going to the Cordish development in Philadelphia which is RIGHT BY ALL THE PROFESSIONAL SPORTS STADIUMS is representative of Norfolk, then he is beyond delusional.

 

Until Cordish announces they are bringing anything NOVEL to the area, they are simply ressurecting a failed project for the 3rd time.  At least the city finally dumped it on someone else.  As city manager Jones said, it'll save the city $1M a year NOT maintaining it, so I guess that is a silver lining.

[BFG]

I swear...Virginia Beach is gonna have their arena approved and halfway built before Norfolk finally even signs the dotted line for Waterside 3.0...

 

One of the comments mentioned that it'll be tough for Granby and Waterside to co-exist, but I disagree. The Granby crowd is made up of young professionals who just want to unwind after a long week (the "Happy Hour" crowd). Waterside 2.0 was the MTV crowd, so to speak. There were/are clubs on Granby Street, but it wasn't the "Top 40" music you found at Bar Norfolk or Have a Nice Day Cafe...

 

Waterside won't hurt Granby any more than Granby hurt Ghent. They're all different crowds and styles. Gotta admit, I spent plenty of Friday and Saturday nights on either Granby or in Waterside (c. 2004-08). Would be nice to see those days return for the city.

Edited December 3, 2012 by BFG

[varider]

I support the Waterside Live project. If done the right way I think it could bring a lot more people downtown. This project combined with everything else going on down there will create a lot more activity. 

[Richmonopoly]

I've not read all through this, and have never spent an evening in any of Waterside's bars and clubs.  But if you've never been to Charlotte then you should look at its Epicenter and The NC Music Factory.  Both are HUGE nighttime destinations and very unique.  The venues are diverse and I believe Norfolk coculd support something of this magnitude. 

 

 

[brikkman]

Shame, still nothing.

What a joke...

[vdogg]

Not really related to waterside but it is related to Burfoot and would seem to confirm many of our suspicions about his "dealings". I just knew that guy was up to no good. If any of these allegations prove true then I think an investigation into the Cordish deal, as well as any other deal that the vice mayor took the lead on, is warranted.

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/developer-says-norfolk-vice-mayor-promised-him-votes

[BFG]

I read the story yesterday and it definitely raised an eyebrow. I forgot all about his cheerleading for Cordish, and I'm willing to bet good money he received special incentive for helping Cordish get the Waterside deal, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was way more than $25K for a condo for his girlfriend. He had absolutely no poker face during the Waterside presentations; I remember watching the meetings and wondering how he was talking about it being a revolutionary project like it hadn't crashed and burned twice.

 

I agree an investigation is warranted, but I don't want to see Waterside 3.0 pushed back another year.

[mistermetaj]

Not really related to waterside but it is related to Burfoot and would seem to confirm many of our suspicions about his "dealings". I just knew that guy was up to no good. If any of these allegations prove true then I think an investigation into the Cordish deal, as well as any other deal that the vice mayor took the lead on, is warranted.

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/developer-says-norfolk-vice-mayor-promised-him-votes

 

I knew it!  The way he was parading around and all but demanding Cordish receive their money from the city manager when he still wanted more time was enough for me.  He was so transparent about it it's ridiculous.  I have no doubt his bank account was filled with Cordish money.  I am very curious to see where all of this goes.  IF he did do what the article says, then he needs to be removed immediately from his position.

[brikkman]

I knew it!  The way he was parading around and all but demanding Cordish receive their money from the city manager when he still wanted more time was enough for me.  He was so transparent about it it's ridiculous.  I have no doubt his bank account was filled with Cordish money.  I am very curious to see where all of this goes.  IF he did do what the article says, then he needs to be removed immediately from his position.

He's frat, and I will even say this is possibly true.  You just have to entertain based on how things have panned out over the years.  AS the saying goes "where there is smoke, there is often times fire".

I say investigated it, although I do not think it can be proven...

[BFG]

By the way, Norfolk is still working on completing a deal with Cordish. They're supposedly "close". In Norfolkspeak, that means another 6 months.

 

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/04/one-year-later-norfolk-officials-close-waterside-deal

[brikkman]

If this LIVE ends up like the one here in bmore, citizens are going to be pretty pissed that its nothing but bars again with a little live music. Took some friends out to it a couple of weeks ago, we could barely find a place to sale us a hamburger.

 

Guess what, that was waterside 2.0 use to be.....

[Telmnstr]

brikkman - was it impossible to get food because it was so busy with customers? That's not a bad place to be.

 

If it was impossible to get food because the service was so bad -- yow.

[brikkman]

brikkman - was it impossible to get food because it was so busy with customers? That's not a bad place to be.

 

If it was impossible to get food because the service was so bad -- yow.

No, it wasn't that busy....pretty moderate, but they shut the kitchens down at 10.  Nothing but beer on out.

a couple of places didn't serve food.

[mistermetaj]

If this LIVE ends up like the one here in bmore, citizens are going to be pretty pissed that its nothing but bars again with a little live music. Took some friends out to it a couple of weeks ago, we could barely find a place to sale us a hamburger.

 

Guess what, that was waterside 2.0 use to be.....

 

The city was looking for the quickest and cheapest way to get Waterside off their books.  They found it with Cordish.  Once the property changes ownership, the city wouldn't care if Cordish let it decay to rubble.  This wasn't a competition for a project, it was a fire sale by the city.  The only winner will be Burfoot who got his under-the-table money.

[VBIllini13]

The city was looking for the quickest and cheapest way to get Waterside off their books.  They found it with Cordish.  Once the property changes ownership, the city wouldn't care if Cordish let it decay to rubble.  This wasn't a competition for a project, it was a fire sale by the city.  The only winner will be Burfoot who got his under-the-table money.

 

Power Plant Live attracts 3 million visitors annually.  I'd say Norfolk would have made Waterside a success if it gets half of that.