Waterside District

[757Duke]

The city is looking at relaxing it's control over Waterside a bit more when it comes to the alcohol and entertainment regulations in terms of the "special exception" permit process. http://hamptonroads.com/2014/02/norfolk-poised-give-control-waterside

[zeppelin14]

According to the State of the City report on WAVY10, construction will begin this Fall.

[Ghentite]

Department of Development officially released the renderings today...http://norfolkliveblog.com/?p=898

[HRVT]

Ugh... Just what I was afraid of happening. It looks like all the tenants will be the current tenants (Hooters, Outback, Joe's Crab Shack.. of which also have considerable other presence in the area). Then two more new bars that.... are already in the area (PBR and Murphy's). Only Shark Bar appears to be a new presence to the area. But then again, it's Cordish. They were underwhelming in Hampton... and so far, VERY underwhelming at Waterside. At least Waterside 10 years ago had bars that were unique to the area.

[VBIllini13]

Ugh... Just what I was afraid of happening. It looks like all the tenants will be the current tenants (Hooters, Outback, Joe's Crab Shack.. of which also have considerable other presence in the area). Then two more new bars that.... are already in the area (PBR and Murphy's). Only Shark Bar appears to be a new presence to the area. But then again, it's Cordish. They were underwhelming in Hampton... and so far, VERY underwhelming at Waterside. At least Waterside 10 years ago had bars that were unique to the area.

 

If they do well and attract people downtown, I don't mind if they're already in the area.  Plus, it seems wrong to me to not invite back existing tenants, especially if they do well.  It's not like they're inviting back the sketchy food court restaurants.  And there's a major difference between Hampton and here: live entertainment.  Simply the presence of bars is all that is needed to make Waterside Live a success when the real draw for most future patrons will be the bands.  That's one of the biggest reasons that Power Plant Live in Baltimore attracts 3 million visitors annually.

[BFG]

I wouldn't take that rendering at face value just yet. I know the Hooters, Outback and Joe's are there to stay, but I'm thinking the artist just needed a few names to make the rendering more realistic, and simply used the names of properties at Power Plant. Honestly, if they put second locations in Norfolk, I wouldn't be too mad.

 

Would love to see a CineBistro type of setup somewhere in Waterside Live though. Probably minus the movie theater since MacArthur already has one a few blocks away...

[HRVT]

I wouldn't take that rendering at face value just yet. I know the Hooters, Outback and Joe's are there to stay, but I'm thinking the artist just needed a few names to make the rendering more realistic, and simply used the names of properties at Power Plant. Honestly, if they put second locations in Norfolk, I wouldn't be too mad.

 

Would love to see a CineBistro type of setup somewhere in Waterside Live though. Probably minus the movie theater since MacArthur already has one a few blocks away...

 

I'm sure more is on the way. Just saying that early returns are disappointing. But not entirely unpredictable given the horrible job Cordish did in Hampton with Power Plant. Hopefully Waterside Live is much better. It will be nice to have another PBR here on this side of the water. I just also wonder how much live entertainment is really going to affect traffic to Waterside Live. Is that really going to bring people from Richmond? Maybe a few folks from the Peninsula from time to time? To become an attraction, there need to be other attractions besides live entertainment.

Edited February 26, 2014 by HRVT

[brikkman]

Live people from Richmond?

absolutely not, however, it will certainly boost Norfolk's profile regards to entertainment, especially in the hot months. Honestly, here in Bmore, Powerplant Live is nothing special other than they have unique bars and outside entertainment (which is big). The original versions of waterside almost had it right, but it was the city and that freaking food court.

I think it will work, I still think the area is too small to support a Bmore version, but I'm sure cordish knows that. It has to open up more, back to the water and to the street to accommodate an exact copy here in bmore. I'm sure that isn't there aim, but it would be nice for them to push it just a bit. There are no restaurants like outback and joes, so this can't be a carbon copy.

 

Overall, better than greenspace and a convention center. I still feel bad about places like Have a nice day, Bar Norfolk, and Jillians. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bar Norfolk or Have a nice day café come back, not at all. I do hope they put a howl at the moon, Love that freaking place.

[Ghentite]

Ugh... Just what I was afraid of happening. It looks like all the tenants will be the current tenants (Hooters, Outback, Joe's Crab Shack.. of which also have considerable other presence in the area). Then two more new bars that.... are already in the area (PBR and Murphy's). Only Shark Bar appears to be a new presence to the area. But then again, it's Cordish. They were underwhelming in Hampton... and so far, VERY underwhelming at Waterside. At least Waterside 10 years ago had bars that were unique to the area.

 

It would have been bad business for the city to kick the current tenants out.  From the folks I've spoken with the deal with them is to let them ride out their current leases. I'd imagine at that point, they'll jack up the rent to where they'd have to leave and only a Cordish-associated (higher-end) business would be able to come in and afford.

[HRVT]

It would have been bad business for the city to kick the current tenants out.  From the folks I've spoken with the deal with them is to let them ride out their current leases. I'd imagine at that point, they'll jack up the rent to where they'd have to leave and only a Cordish-associated (higher-end) business would be able to come in and afford.

 

That's possible. I'm aware that they weren't necessarily going to kick current tenants out and frankly, those don't bother me so much. But the "new" places that already have a presence in Hampton Roads generates very little excitement. And you're probably right that rents will be raised in such a way to make way for higher end and Cordish associated business. I was just really hoping for more businesses that are new to the area. There's still plenty of room. But it is Cordish and they did a horrible job in Hampton with Power Plant. I hope they do much better in Norfolk. Hopefully the tenants announced in the future generate more excitement.

[brikkman]

That's possible. I'm aware that they weren't necessarily going to kick current tenants out and frankly, those don't bother me so much. But the "new" places that already have a presence in Hampton Roads generates very little excitement. And you're probably right that rents will be raised in such a way to make way for higher end and Cordish associated business. I was just really hoping for more businesses that are new to the area. There's still plenty of room. But it is Cordish and they did a horrible job in Hampton with Power Plant. I hope they do much better in Norfolk. Hopefully the tenants announced in the future generate more excitement.

yeah, but its not really about the names honestly, they are building atmosphere around it, IF they are doing it like here in bmore at powerplanet live. the bars they have here are just that, bars. They have howl at the moon, which is a franchise in a few cities (great place, its a piano bar but waayyyyy exciting), an out door stage, and the rest are you standard bars, with different names. Nothing to jump over about. For those who have been to bmore, or havent' been in a while. There is a difference as well as geographical difference between POWERPLANET and POWERPLANET LIVE.

 

One thing I'm hoping for since we are stuck with this, I'm hoping they will create a riverside bar/seating/stage like they do at PowerPlanet. It would make sense for a lot of reasons. After a certain time, the area is closed off and you have to be 21 and older to pass security. The area isn't enclosed either, its open, so I'm hoping they will add an open space to the area as well.  Because this is a management company as well, this should do well. It won't be like Hampton's representation, which will add to the allure I'm sure.  Its a pretty live place, lots of drunks AKA people having fun. Parking in DT Bmore is CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, $25 a night on the weekend to park near this place. Norfolk definitely needs this, I just wish it could have had more of a EpiCenter vibe instead, still wish they tore it down and built it to where it connected to the hotel and expand down to the street and more to the river port.

[urbanvb]

Some ideas have been unveiled for the look and feel of Waterside Live. 

 

http://hamptonroads.com/2014/03/ideas-unveiled-look-and-feel-waterside-live

[Ghentite]

The more I hear about this and how they're trying to tailor for Norfolk, the more I like it and am glad they didn’t choose the other proposal.

 

People always talk about how much of a shame it was that the city tore down this and that historical landmark.  Truth is Waterside in its own right is a unique architectural landmark and was very well known outside of Hampton Roads for a number of years.  I'm glad they're keeping it but modifying it.  If they did end up razing it, in 50 years everyone would be complaining how Norfolk never should have torn it down and never has any respect for its past.

 

A convention center on that spot would have been a huge waste of real estate and would have killed any shot of revitalizing the waterfront.  The high line idea is a great concept and works in NYC because they took a historical transit line and repurposed it.  That alone attracts tourists each year.  If they did that downtown it would be forced and really just an unused glorified walkway.  So looking back, while I used to be a huge fan of other proposal, my attitude after hearing about the new ideas for Waterside and after visiting the NYC high line has completely changed.  I think the current plan will work pretty well.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Ghentite

[brikkman]

The more I hear about this and how they're trying to tailor for Norfolk, the more I like it and am glad they didn’t choose the other proposal.

 

People always talk about how much of a shame it was that the city tore down this and that historical landmark.  Truth is Waterside in its own right is a unique architectural landmark and was very well known outside of Hampton Roads for a number of years.  I'm glad they're keeping it but modifying it.  If they did end up razing it, in 50 years everyone would be complaining how Norfolk never should have torn it down and never has any respect for its past.

 

A convention center on that spot would have been a huge waste of real estate and would have killed any shot of revitalizing the waterfront.  The high line idea is a great concept and works in NYC because they took a historical transit line and repurposed it.  That alone attracts tourists each year.  If they did that downtown it would be forced and really just an unused glorified walkway.  So looking back, while I used to be a huge fan of other proposal, my attitude after hearing about the new ideas for Waterside and after visiting the NYC high line has completely changed.  I think the current plan will work pretty well.

I always preferred this, just not using the same building and design. I do not think the design supports what Norfolk needs today. I think rather it should have been torn down, or at least part of it. And at 40 million invested, I cant' see why that wasn't an option. Perhaps it was smoke and mirrors on their behalf to do that or maybe they are planning more extensive upgrades than talked about. Waterside was good for what it was back in the 80s, now it should be more inviting. Again, the idea is fine, but it should be expanded, perhaps even a court yard. It would have been nice to include a new hotel that was directly linked to it as well, but I understand that would have taken much much more effort to pull off. I still think a 7 lane urban bowling alley would have been nice too to be included. Definitely needed to be expand to the street and back to the river at some parts. Either way, this is a good thing, not because its new, but more importantly Norfolk has backed off in a way it has a real chance to thrive. Actually, that notion trumps it all in my book, no more NHRA.

[HRVT]

I always preferred this, just not using the same building and design. I do not think the design supports what Norfolk needs today. I think rather it should have been torn down, or at least part of it. And at 40 million invested, I cant' see why that wasn't an option. Perhaps it was smoke and mirrors on their behalf to do that or maybe they are planning more extensive upgrades than talked about. Waterside was good for what it was back in the 80s, now it should be more inviting. Again, the idea is fine, but it should be expanded, perhaps even a court yard. It would have been nice to include a new hotel that was directly linked to it as well, but I understand that would have taken much much more effort to pull off. I still think a 7 lane urban bowling alley would have been nice too to be included. Definitely needed to be expand to the street and back to the river at some parts. Either way, this is a good thing, not because its new, but more importantly Norfolk has backed off in a way it has a real chance to thrive. Actually, that notion trumps it all in my book, no more NHRA.

Well, we still only know a few of the future tenants to Waterside Live, though the ones we know of so far have been underwhelming. I mean, PBR exists on the other side of the water... and the Hampton Power Plant has been a disaster.... and we'll just say that projected tax revenue is not being collected.

[skylinefan]

I agree with Ghentite.  All along I thought Waterside needed to be opened up with a lot glass to highlight Norfolk's location on the river.  Waterside to me is an iconic structure on the Waterfront unique to Norfolk.  It would be a shame to knock it down and wait for some development to be built there in the future, meanwhile the land would revert back to a parking lot like it was in the 70s.  Norfolk has torn down enough of its heritage glad that for once its saving a bit of its history. 

Edited March 20, 2014 by skylinefan

[mistermetaj]

The more I hear about this and how they're trying to tailor for Norfolk, the more I like it and am glad they didn’t choose the other proposal.

 

People always talk about how much of a shame it was that the city tore down this and that historical landmark.  Truth is Waterside in its own right is a unique architectural landmark and was very well known outside of Hampton Roads for a number of years.  I'm glad they're keeping it but modifying it.  If they did end up razing it, in 50 years everyone would be complaining how Norfolk never should have torn it down and never has any respect for its past.

 

A convention center on that spot would have been a huge waste of real estate and would have killed any shot of revitalizing the waterfront.  The high line idea is a great concept and works in NYC because they took a historical transit line and repurposed it.  That alone attracts tourists each year.  If they did that downtown it would be forced and really just an unused glorified walkway.  So looking back, while I used to be a huge fan of other proposal, my attitude after hearing about the new ideas for Waterside and after visiting the NYC high line has completely changed.  I think the current plan will work pretty well.

 

Referring to Waterside as a "unique architectural landmark" is a stretch.  It is hardly iconic and has a brother in Baltimore.  That being said, if Cordish can add some brick and steel beams and invoke the industrial look of older seaports, I'm all for it.

 

The convention center proposal seemed to sterilize the waterfront, and its loss is negligible since a convention center is planned for Bruce Thompson's hotel off Granby St.

 

The high line proposal should be built by the city as public space.  There are many cities outside of New York that have beautiful public "walkways" within the city that adds charm and serve as their own destination.  In fact, there were slides in the HL proposal with pictures listing the cities.  Norfolk would benefit from such a space if the city built it correctly.

 

Ultimately, if Cordish executes their plan and revitalizes Waterside, this project will be a success.  From the city's point of view, they already eliminated $1M of Waterside maintenance from the books and Cordish assumed all risk.  My hopes are high for what Cordish can bring.     

[brikkman]

Referring to Waterside as a "unique architectural landmark" is a stretch.  It is hardly iconic and has a brother in Baltimore.  That being said, if Cordish can add some brick and steel beams and invoke the industrial look of older seaports, I'm all for it.

 

The convention center proposal seemed to sterilize the waterfront, and its loss is negligible since a convention center is planned for Bruce Thompson's hotel off Granby St.

 

The high line proposal should be built by the city as public space.  There are many cities outside of New York that have beautiful public "walkways" within the city that adds charm and serve as their own destination.  In fact, there were slides in the HL proposal with pictures listing the cities.  Norfolk would benefit from such a space if the city built it correctly.

 

Ultimately, if Cordish executes their plan and revitalizes Waterside, this project will be a success.  From the city's point of view, they already eliminated $1M of Waterside maintenance from the books and Cordish assumed all risk.  My hopes are high for what Cordish can bring.     

I think they will do well, its a pretty easy concept to pull off, Norfolk council just makes it rocket science. Here in Bmore, they run with security after a certain hour and ID's are checked. I'm not sure if you have to be 18 or older, but they do check id's. My assumption is its 18 or older because the bars tend to recheck you.  My hope, they bring in a "howl at the moon", that would be outstanding (its the dueling piano's on steriods).

 

I still find it ironic how the start of this mess was to make room for "family friendly", but they ended up siding with a concept that is totally the opposite. Pretty much what they had already but with a better concept and management.

[Goats_Gruff]

Waterside has already locked the doors to the public bathrooms - change is a comin'!

[brikkman]

Waterside has already locked the doors to the public bathrooms - change is a comin'!

Good, time for a change in those parts.

Since we are stuck with t his, Im' wishing for the best. Hoping they transform it, open it up similar to how it is here in bmore....

I can't see how they do that unless they will expand to the street and harbor. Hoping for some dramatic other than a clear roof...

[Goats_Gruff]

Good, time for a change in those parts.

Since we are stuck with t his, Im' wishing for the best. Hoping they transform it, open it up similar to how it is here in bmore....

I can't see how they do that unless they will expand to the street and harbor. Hoping for some dramatic other than a clear roof...

 

You're right - it needs to be better integrated with the landscape surrounding it inside Town Point Park. Nearly every festival at the park, likely for ABC and security reasons, has the festival boundary located just away from Waterside near the Spirit of Norfolk docking station. Judging from the way parties such as Shamrockin' in Ghent bring loads of people out to patronize the buisnesses on Colley (along with their own beer and food vendors), better integration for Waterside with TPP festivals seems like a no-brainer.

[Ghentite]

Some of the schematic plans for Waterside Live have been released:  http://norfolkliveblog.com/?p=1180

[urbanlife]

Some of the schematic plans for Waterside Live have been released:  http://norfolkliveblog.com/?p=1180

It looks nice, not much different than the current building, but definitely a much needed renovation.  When I walked through it when I was in town, it looked like it did in the late 80s and early 90s which explains why it is basically empty now. (Well that and anyone who would have gone to Waterside were at the mall.)

[brikkman]

Some of the schematic plans for Waterside Live have been released:  http://norfolkliveblog.com/?p=1180I 

I don't love it, but I didn't expect to ever love it to be honest.  It of course is better than the food court layout. I was hoping they would extend the building some how. Justifying parking will be a challenge.

I will say, Power Planet Live here in Bmore would definitely be a game changer for Norfolk and the 757 period.  There is nothing even close to that in that region, I would go as far and say not even richmond. What I'm a little thrown off by is all the talk about being family friendly, to this model that is 100% completely the opposite.  I'm encouraging it, still with these plans I do not understand the 18 month build process.. Must be a small crew as it should take that long for what they drew up on those schematics.

[mistermetaj]

I don't love it, but I didn't expect to ever love it to be honest. It of course is better than the food court layout. I was hoping they would extend the building some how. Justifying parking will be a challenge.

I will say, Power Planet Live here in Bmore would definitely be a game changer for Norfolk and the 757 period. There is nothing even close to that in that region, I would go as far and say not even richmond. What I'm a little thrown off by is all the talk about being family friendly, to this model that is 100% completely the opposite. I'm encouraging it, still with these plans I do not understand the 18 month build process.. Must be a small crew as it should take that long for what they drew up on those schematics.

I like the move to a more industrial look. It's adding a nice bit of character Norfolk was missing on the waterfront. It's a nod to the old piers that used to jut out from the city. Norfolk's version of a historic open market. Edited May 30, 2014 by mistermetaj