Waterside District

[omegastar]

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all.

We live in a region with no vision and can't do mentality. Everything that we do in this region is second-class because our leadership are more concerned with costs and tax-payer liabilities rather than a forward thinking region aspiring to become great and a world class destination.

You have conservatives fighting every project proposed in every city that are vital to becoming a great city.

We are the birth place of America yet no-one knows the name of our region. We have all the natural resources that one could dream of yet our marketing of the region lack imagination and a true attraction to become a national destination. It takes imagination and a willingness to dare to be great but our leadership lack the balls to even consider great ideas like casinos, professional sports, world-class attractions, and real mass transit.

Many would rather keep the status-quo than pay a few extra dollars in an effort to become a great region. Honestly, I believe that old stereotypes and racism are at the heart of these issues as we see in every article in the Pilot on race and development. The problem is, the conservative minority happens to be the voting majority so until this changes, we will continue to be subject to non-growth, declining population, and less federal spending in this region. Hampton Roads is the poster child community for the tea-party!

[urbanlife]

Yes, we would all LIKE to impliment these ideas, but this isn't Disney World. All of these have been discussed in other threads plenty of times and the casino idea, which most people would love, is a pipe dream.

A downtown should never put in a casino, it is basically a sign that the city has thrown in the towel with trying to be a legitimate downtown.

[omegastar]

You could well be correct about a casino downtown but we should have one somewhere in the region to attract people here.

I just think that the Coordish Plan is not the answer and a google search will reveal some interesting things about this company. I bet a few city council members are uncomfortable with some of the Kansas City taxes used to subsidize that Coordish development. I just don't see any appeal in a bunch of restaurants where people have to pay a five dollar parking fee to dine. Burfoot was clear about wanting to keep those parking fees.

Although far fewer restaurants, the Harvey Lindsay plan offers permanent jobs, and skyline density with the potential of new residents downtown.

We would be one of few cities nationally experiencing a building boom during an economic downturn and be ahead of the curve when the economy rebounds. Perhaps we can actually get some projects off the ground this time because other companies will take notice and want to jump on the bandwagon. If we keep passing up these opportunities, companies like Harvey Lindsay and others will build elsewhere.

[zeppelin14]

You have conservatives fighting every project proposed in every city that are vital to becoming a great city.

Are you serious? Every city in Hampton Rpads is run by Democrats!

[mistermetaj]

@omegastar

First off I think there are state issues when it comes to even the legality of a casino. Combine that with an extreme religious undertone throughout the region an a casino anywhere is a pipe dream. If a casino were to come to the area it belongs on the vacant oval parking lot at the most southern end of the strip in Virginia Beach.

You will find all of us psting on here agree with you on the benefits of the HL proposal but most of us also knew the council would never go with it.

My hope is that Cordish does find a real entertainment idea that works for the region and they do make waterside successful.

I think Burfoot has his pockets filled with Cordish money and that why he is such a huge proponent of the proposal. I think he is too "community" focused considering the goal of this project is to draw people from outside of Norfolk.

[omegastar]

Zeppelin 14, I enjoy reading your posts but city council has m.embers of both parties and some members are self-serving. I am mostly talking about private citizens like tea-party members who like to organize and protest every

Mistermetaj, I agree with most of what you said. I am much older than most of you up here and I have long heard rumors of Burfoot showing favoritism to his personal benefit but I disgress. I can't imagine anyone wanting to keep the projects in place in the SPQ when you have the opportunity to expand downtown.

I am a black male and I used to have a brother who was a high ranking city official who would keep me informed on what plans the city for downtown Norfolk. Actually, he was interium Police chief for a year prior to Marquise joining the force.

Edited May 28, 2012 by omegastar

[brikkman]

Don't get me started on SPQ...

[omegastar]

Ok, If the Coordish company wins the Waterside project then do you think that Harvey Lindsay will still be interested in building the hotel and office tower downtown?

I hope that city council members will offer them other options of development so we will continue to have a good relationship with the company.

I can't imagine why the office tower can't still be on the table. I can understand about the convention center and hotel being on hold but since the city has money put aside for such a project, why not use those funds toward a new arena/convention complex near Harbor Park?

I wouldn't be too disappointed if Harvey Lindsay chooses another location but I will be angry if we lose 1500 downtown workers and 2 high-rise towers because we can't find a reasonable alternative to offer them. I kinda wish that we could tear down the Royster building next to Norfolk Southern tower and build an iconic signature tower there. I have always thought that a signature tower in that location would make a huge impact on the impression of our downtown. If you put a 28 story office tower on the former Westin site along with a new signature tower on the Royster site, that would make for a very impressive downtown.

[BFG]

I definitely think Council needs to use their head (stop laughing!) and find a reasonable compromise between both. If they go with Cordish, I could see HL developing the land where the Westin would've gone (corner of Main + Granby), where "The Plot" is going now. I honestly hate the idea of seeing Waterside go, but I hate the idea of Waterside 3.0 even more.

I would like, for once, to see Norfolk take a chance and stop going for such cookie-cutter ideas. It's the only way this city will ever make it to the next level. They took a chance on light rail, and so far, it's been a success. A project bringing that many jobs, and a potential Fortune 500 company is a no-brainer.

As for the old Holiday/Radisson/Clarion/Hotel Norfolk Plaza or whatever the hell it calls itself, just get rid of it. It's not that historic, and it changes names too much to be profitable. It reminds me of when Norfolk was trying to get an NHL team in the mid-to-late-90s, and that would've been the site of the new arena. I really wish that one had come to fruition, considering it would've been much cheaper (even when adjusted for inflation). Now, an arena would cost more than light rail, and if Norfolk doesn't even want to spend money on HL's plan, then the arena's out of the question too.

[omegastar]

Portsmouth's waterfront would be ideal for a Coordish project! I would love to see Portsmouth become a player and develop something to compliment Norfolk thus creating a bustling mega-district shared by two cities separated only by water. Now, a riverboat casino would be perfect somewhere perhaps in old Atlantic City.lol Seriously though, we need to do something since the state is willing to let our region sink or swim on our own.

The city has a large chunk of money put aside for a conference center which may or may not be needed. If the city decides that a large convention center is not needed, why not build a large hotel with several floors for convention space and build a new arena with 20k seats for large concerts, NCAA regional sports, and possibly an NBA franchise.

I know that a lot of these things has been discussed to death but I would hate to see the day that gave up all hope. I see a lot of promise with you guys and I hope that you never lose the hope and love for our region as I haven't.

[brikkman]

I definitely think Council needs to use their head (stop laughing!) and find a reasonable compromise between both. If they go with Cordish, I could see HL developing the land where the Westin would've gone (corner of Main + Granby), where "The Plot" is going now. I honestly hate the idea of seeing Waterside go, but I hate the idea of Waterside 3.0 even more.

I would like, for once, to see Norfolk take a chance and stop going for such cookie-cutter ideas. It's the only way this city will ever make it to the next level. They took a chance on light rail, and so far, it's been a success. A project bringing that many jobs, and a potential Fortune 500 company is a no-brainer.

As for the old Holiday/Radisson/Clarion/Hotel Norfolk Plaza or whatever the hell it calls itself, just get rid of it. It's not that historic, and it changes names too much to be profitable. It reminds me of when Norfolk was trying to get an NHL team in the mid-to-late-90s, and that would've been the site of the new arena. I really wish that one had come to fruition, considering it would've been much cheaper (even when adjusted for inflation). Now, an arena would cost more than light rail, and if Norfolk doesn't even want to spend money on HL's plan, then the arena's out of the question too.

All the super cool stuff that has been proposaled over the year with the expection of LRT is either dead in the water or watered down. A few projects that come to mind (belmont, MacAurther center, GT, new transportation hub, even harbor park). So yes, these are small time minds not understanding what it truly takes to take it to the next level, waterside is definitely a respresentation of that. The fact that it has been in the air for more than 6/8 years is issue enough to local council and say "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING". Has anyone noticed how they have spinned this as if this has become an issue over only the last year when in fact its been in the air for 6/8 years? You can't mix small minds in a city that is teatering greatness. It is so much to work on and so many approaches, but the council seems to semi-fail everytime something big is proposed. I'm still amazed that LRT went through.

Imagine what DT would be if all the proposed projects went through. We would have one heck of a DT with massive potential.

Don't get me started on SPQ, lol

[rocktop]

I would like to submit a new development proposal for the Norfolk waterside area. Basically, I am offering to purchase the neighboring aging Sheraton Hotel with intentions of building a modern 30 story high rise hotel that would front Waterside drive and create an urban pedestrian friendly streetscape. Connected to the tower would be the Waterside Convention Center, the 60,000 sf multi use pavilion, the one that studies confirm the city would benefit. Norfolk would own, the hotel manages. The plot that the Waterside sits on would be an addition to Town Point Park adding more than 50% more parkland. Connected to the Center soars a 40 story lighthouse, clad with LED light panels rising to the top of the tower with a beacon crowning the apex with search lights and lasers. The world’s tallest lighthouse reflecting on the river as ground zero for buoy number one on the inter coastal waterway. This icon for Norfolk would be a landmark and the most photographed skyline as the colors and computerized graphics glow. The lookout has three levels at the top, a public level, a commercial level for a restaurant and a hall level for parties and weddings. The elevator ride would cost a fee while the walk on the spiral steps would be free. The Norfolk Lighthouse would pay for itself while not using a large footprint of parkland. The new design which promotes walking, window shopping and outdoor cafes gives the city of Norfolk a golden opportunity to develop the façade of the Waterside parking garage into multi story storefronts excellent for souvenir, apparel, and eating establishments taking full advantage of the spectacular harbor view while at the same time masking the nondescript carcass of a parking garage. There is ample room between the sidewalk and the structure and plenty more space on both ends to accomplish this. We also encourage the Harvey Lindsay development of the new bank tower, the hotel and the architectural firm’s headquarters as they proposed which would provide the urban density envisioned for a vibrant and lively riverfront city.

[brikkman]

I would like to submit a new development proposal for the Norfolk waterside area. Basically, I am offering to purchase the neighboring aging Sheraton Hotel with intentions of building a modern 30 story high rise hotel that would front Waterside drive and create an urban pedestrian friendly streetscape. Connected to the tower would be the Waterside Convention Center, the 60,000 sf multi use pavilion, the one that studies confirm the city would benefit. Norfolk would own, the hotel manages. The plot that the Waterside sits on would be an addition to Town Point Park adding more than 50% more parkland. Connected to the Center soars a 40 story lighthouse, clad with LED light panels rising to the top of the tower with a beacon crowning the apex with search lights and lasers. The world’s tallest lighthouse reflecting on the river as ground zero for buoy number one on the inter coastal waterway. This icon for Norfolk would be a landmark and the most photographed skyline as the colors and computerized graphics glow. The lookout has three levels at the top, a public level, a commercial level for a restaurant and a hall level for parties and weddings. The elevator ride would cost a fee while the walk on the spiral steps would be free. The Norfolk Lighthouse would pay for itself while not using a large footprint of parkland. The new design which promotes walking, window shopping and outdoor cafes gives the city of Norfolk a golden opportunity to develop the façade of the Waterside parking garage into multi story storefronts excellent for souvenir, apparel, and eating establishments taking full advantage of the spectacular harbor view while at the same time masking the nondescript carcass of a parking garage. There is ample room between the sidewalk and the structure and plenty more space on both ends to accomplish this. We also encourage the Harvey Lindsay development of the new bank tower, the hotel and the architectural firm’s headquarters as they proposed which would provide the urban density envisioned for a vibrant and lively riverfront city.

Hard to tell if you were being real and who are "we"?

Sounds good I guess, better than what they are proposing..

[vdogg]

Hard to tell if you were being real and who are "we"?

Sounds good I guess, better than what they are proposing..

I agree. Sounds a bit....ambitious... With out more information I must say I'm a bit skeptical.

[omegastar]

Rocktop, now that's what I am talking about! Creative ideas thinking outside of the box with something for everyone to like.

The question is, are you serious and have you spoken with anyone from the city to fly your ideas? I would think that your proposal would have to include the Coordish plan since they are apparently going to win the Waterside lottery. Is it possible to build your proposal and keep the Coordish plain intact? I also would like for Harvey Lindsay to develop his office tower and hotel if they are still interested.

I look forward to hearing more about your ideas and hope that you will keep us informed.

[BFG]

Rocktop, that plan sounds pretty cool, but I'm a bit confused. Would Waterside remain in place, or torn down as well?

If I'm not mistaken, tonight Marcus Jones makes his recommendation on what to do...

[Ghentite]

If I'm not mistaken, tonight Marcus Jones makes his recommendation on what to do...

Jones made his recommendation a month ago. Today they had Cordish on hand to go in depth a little further to City Council and answer any questions the city might have.

http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/06/cordish-cos-field-waterside-questions.html#more

In watching the video, I must say it was refreshing to see that the City Council isn't just thinking about Waterside with this, but they're thinking about development all the way to Harbor Park.

[BFG]

Gotcha...didn't realize that was the actual recommendation. I'll check out the meeting when I get home tonight...

[Ghentite]

That said the recommendation is just one man's recommendation to the council. They still haven't had a vote so nothing is a done deal at this point...

[BFG]

I like the fact that Councilman Protogyrou is addressing the main issues with this project, mainly the lack of a long-term vision. I would like to think the council is leaning closer to his mindset that Waterside is not going to make Norfolk a tourist or local destination. They even mentioned how other cities have similar venues that are now past their prime, and how Norfolk is the only one with Waterside still hanging on.

Neither presentation wowed me, BTW.

[mistermetaj]

I like the fact that Councilman Protogyrou is addressing the main issues with this project, mainly the lack of a long-term vision. I would like to think the council is leaning closer to his mindset that Waterside is not going to make Norfolk a tourist or local destination. They even mentioned how other cities have similar venues that are now past their prime, and how Norfolk is the only one with Waterside still hanging on.

Neither presentation wowed me, BTW.

What's even funnier is when Protogyrou brought up these issues, it was Burfoot who tried to answer for Cordish and the consultants. I am telling you, the man is being paid under the table to fast track this soon to be catastrophe on the waterfront. I wish it were possible to find out if his accounts are larger than usual.

[mistermetaj]

The consultant essentially said nothing and was just another sound piece for the project. He was as absolutely vague as possible. I mean, every question directed at him about certain statements, he couldn't answer. What on earth was he paid for? He was atrocious.

Edited June 6, 2012 by mistermetaj

[BFG]

What's even funnier is when Protogyrou brought up these issues, it was Burfoot who tried to answer for Cordish and the consultants. I am telling you, the man is being paid under the table to fast track this soon to be catastrophe on the waterfront. I wish it were possible to find out if his accounts are larger than usual.

I'm glad it wasn't just me (again). He seemed very defensive towards Protogyrou whenever a question was asked about how feasible Cordish's plan was. I agree with you, Burfoot is becoming more and more transparent about his love for this project. Fortunately, he appears to be the only one.

I like that councilmembers are open to developing that waterfront area, and that they even implied that the other proposals aren't completely out of the question, just not on the Waterside property. I also like that they're very open to regionalism and making DT Norfolk work for both the short term, and in the long run.

[omegastar]

Regionalism makes sense! It's time for this region to make the next step toward becoming one united city. There are still those who are afraid of change and others who would prefer us to remain a small second-tier region with independent entities. Times have changed and people demand services that are no longer affordable under our present state. I believe that once the ball gets rolling, there is no stopping it. Every prloposal to make this happen has in the past has been defeated but it seems that the majority now is in favor of seeing change which will benefit the entire region rather than the needs of a few.

Norfolk and Portsmouth should seek a merger thus creating a city of almost 350 thousand people and ensuring that Portsmouth's waterfront will get developed properly and eliminating the need for their waterfront city hall and jail. We could move all jail services from both cities to the regional jail location and creating a municipal complex in downtown Norfolk along with a new high-rise city hall which will house all employees.

The school systems will more than likely improve as we can focus tax dollars more substance and less duplication of services. Light-rail would then service both waterfronts and we could focus on developing the Portsmouth waterfront to compliment Norfolk being that we are one and the same.

The best part of the regionalization idea would be the increased media and national exposure we would benefit from. Louisville, Kentucky almost doubled it's population by annexing land as did Raliegh and Charlotte. We must grow somehow and this is the only way to do it since the state has laws the prevent discourages growth through annexation. Look at those cities now as compared to us.

[rocktop]

Rocktop, that plan sounds pretty cool, but I'm a bit confused. Would Waterside remain in place, or torn down as well?

If I'm not mistaken, tonight Marcus Jones makes his recommendation on what to do...

Thnx for the feedback, the Waterside would be razed and converted to parkland. The pavilion would front the river and flow onto the park lawn complementing festivals, balls, concerts, civic events and conventions. These are preliminary plans with the goal of showing the city the potential of what can become a world class port of call rather than a food court. I’m working on putting together a presentation with artist’s renderings, conceptual drawings and photoshop pics before the city signs away our riverfront to outside developers like the state did with the tunnels. Any help would be appreciated.

Edited June 8, 2012 by vdogg
Moved quote tags