Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[cltbwimob]

^ I don't follow any sports but I clearly remember the chatter here and reading it on both th observer and th CBJ.

 

I said it "almost" received no attention the UP board because it received only two comments, one comment when they were down by two games, and one when they got swept.  Both were casual/passing remarks, hardly the type of chatter you would expect.

 

  I read the Observer, CBJ, Meck Times, WSOC, WBTV, WCNC, and News 14 websites daily.  I only saw talk of the championship on the Observer, however maybe I was not looking hard enough at the others.  The Observer did report it, but I remember the reports being relegated to the doldrums of the website in an area commonly populated by the "What's in Store" and Mark Washburn opinion columns.  Once again it was hardly the type of fan-fare one would expect if this notional loyal fan base for the minor leagues actually existed. 

[nowensone]

I am glad you brought the issue of stadium size to light.  For information purposes, Target Field in Minneapolis sits on an 8 acre parcel, which is the same size as the Knights parcel.  Target Field was also voted by ESPN to be the best experience in Major League Baseball.  To be fair, the Target Field parcel is less rectangular than the Knights parcel, however this issue could be corrected by either moving Graham street to the west, or tunneling Graham street as part of the infrastructure improvements. 

 

As far as minor league being more sustainable, I can't speak specifically to that, but I can say this, MLB franchises are on average 30 times more valuable than AAA teams, generate 15-25 times the revenue, have huge payrolls that average somewhere between $70-100 million per year, have stadiums that average 10-12 times the value of AAA stadiums (valuation based property taxes are much higher).  In addition, average attendance is about 3-4 times the attendance of MiLB for more games per year (rather than 600k people roaming the streets of downtown for the duration of the season, you would see approximately 2 million downtown for the season) which means that local area restaurants bars and shops have 3-4 times more potential customers which increases sales tax revenue and the list goes on and on and on...To say that minor league is more sustainable completely ignores the fact that average attendance at a MLB stadium can be 40% and the team can still be a perfectly viable and profitable entity.  The Knights, who average 40% attendance in Ft. Mill, lose money.  And I will remind you that once the Knights leave Ft. Mill , they will leave a blighted stadium behind. Additionally, interest has been picking up in MLB recently, especially with the new wildcard rules.  In fact, according to a Forbes report on the business of Baseball, the average value of teams rose 16% from 2011 to 2012 due to the recent uptick in interest.

 

As far as minor league creating a greater and more loyal fan base,  I will challenge you to prove that to me.  Until AAA has better financials than MLB and better attendance I won't believe it, because it is simply not true.  Professional sports will always garner a more loyal fan base than the minors. Even when the Orioles were one of the worst teams in baseball they would have more fans night after night in Camden Yards than a minor league team will have on its best nights.  I will leave you with this question: if there is a greater and more loyal fan base for minor league baseball, then why did the fact that the Knights went to the International League Championships last year go almost unnoticed for this UrbanPlanet thread which is populated by a large self-proclaimed group of Knights fans, and why was it scarcely reported in the local media?

 

I looked at stadiums based on your size comment, you may be right, many are squeezed into tighter spaces than I recalled from my outings (Rangers, Astros & Brewers), though the shape may be the concern there, I will concede that one.  As to the value argument, the key point is the payroll, not the value of the franchise or the property, the salaries are the cash-flow burden of a business such as this, which usually has a direct relationship with success of the team.  If we cannot the afford the salaries for winning talent then attendance suffers, and becomes a vicious cycle.  You said 40% is still profitable for a MLB team, from where do those numbers come?  And what about when those numbers are lower?  I went to an Astros Marlins game in I think 2000, which was maybe filled with a 1,000 other spectators, and I am being generous, it was sad.  I'll also concede that the value to surrounding business is a boon, but if the stadium is mainly home to tumbleweeds then this becomes a non-factor as well, I still think a more intimate, and cheaper, venue is more sustainable, and as for impact on local businesses, I will spend the same or more at an adjoining restaurant, or even at the stadium itself, if I didn't spend a couple of hundred on tickets.  And I will attend far more often and support those local businesses much more than I would coming for one game a season for MLB.

Edited January 22, 2013 by nowensone

[ah59396]

I'll also attend way more knights games than if we had an MLB team. For one, like I said, I don't have an invested interest in the knights...I don't care if they win or lose. I'm just there to enjoy for a cheap price.

I wouldn't feel the same way about MLB. For one thing, I'm a jays fan. And that would never change. Maybe if Charlotte was an NL team I'd cheer for them, but that would alienate the large Braves fan base in Charlotte. The obvious choice would be AL for that reason, plus you'd get the gate sales of the Yankees and Red Sox fans.

But ignoring the transplant loyalties is foolish. Especially northeast transplants. I have absolutely nothing to back this statement except for my own experiences...but baseball fans are usually the MOST loyal to their team. It'd be a tough sell to convert Yankees, Braves and Phillies fans to Charlotte fans.

For reference, when the Panthers came here in the mid 90's, the falcons and the redskins were terrible.

[DMann]

When looking at stadium size, keep in mind that if someone wanted to expand the stadium from 10,000 to 35,000 seats, perhaps it could fit on the site, but what of the supporting walkways, parking, restaurants/bars in an area that is fastly filling in with other projects.

 

I repeat, a major league team will not move into a renovated facility. 

[Urbanity]

I think I'm frustrated with the MLB talk (for Charlotte) as it has focused on implications that the Knights new stadium represents a lost opportunity for the city, but the truth is that there must exist an opportunity for it to be lost.   And there never was.  There are no teams looking to relocate here because it just makes no sense.

 

MLB was not coming to Charlotte and it won't be coming to Charlotte for 1-2 decades.  If in some point in the future a team is seriously looking at Charlotte to relocate I don't buy the Knights Stadium having anything to do with their decision of it being a good move.

Can we move the talks of MLB (pro/con/whatever) to it's own thread and get back to focusing on the Knights in this one?  

 

I, for one, look forward to discussions of the Knights stadium and the surrounding developments as it/they rise!

[Matthew.Brendan]

Take me out to the ball game,

Take me out with the crowd;

Buy me some peanuts and Cracker Jack,

I don't care if I never get back.

Let me root, root, root for the home team,

If they don't win, it's a shame.

For it's one, two, three strikes, you're out,

At the old ball game.

Play ball!

[dubone]

It is funny how literally all our topics this week are woefully off topic.  

 

I totally agree with Urbanity, that this AAA stadium does not seem to have any significant opportunity cost which may have been so if we had rebuffed an opportunity for an MLB team.   Instead, the smart money knows that we are unlikely to be ready for a 3rd pro team, let alone one like MLB that requires substantial disposable income in the city and owners.   For the Knights themselves, it was a no brainer because they were not drawing attendees in their out of state suburban locale.  For the city, there was some costs, but primarily it was for street improvements that would need to be done no matter what, and will bring a substantial part of downtown up to date for streetscape and two way streets.  For the county, they continue to own the land just as they own all sorts of other land in downtown and around the county, but this land will be developed by a private entity that serves a purpose the county is theoretically responsible for (parks and recreation).

 

All in all, it really was something that needed to happen, and for 5-10 years, talk of MLB was just that, while we let the team we already had rot on the vine. 

[navigator319]

couple pics from today....

[Guest]

I was reading over the "State of the Center City" pdf. 

http://files.charlottecentercity.org/2012_SoCC_Web.pdf

And within it there is a reference to a 153 unit Third Ward/BB&T Stadium Apartments. Does anyone have any additional information on this? Could it be that they were "padding the stats" which would be completely unnecessary, the hotel changed to multifamily, or there is something left to be announced. 

Edited January 24, 2013 by Guest

[HopHead]

This sounds like something different. If you go to the "On the Horizon" section it refers to a hotel in the "Ballpark Neighborhood". Perhaps there's another parcel of land that hasn't been talked about yet on here. 

[HopHead]

A few pieces of info regarding BB&T Ballpark were released today by the team (some which isn't really new news). One is that there will in fact be a team owned hotel behind the left field wall as depicted in the renderings. It will be 125 rooms and have underground parking. It isn't clear to me in the article whether or not it will be ready for the April 2014 stadium opening. If it is, they have some fast construction workers. The rest of the ballpark is set to be mostly completed by the end of this year, with finishing touches to be applied in early 2014.

 

The other piece is that most all of the tickets will be priced the same as they are today down in Fort Mill. The exception being box and club seats which will be $18 and $21. General Admission seats will be $9 and lawn seats in the outfield will be $6. This will be a complete steal IMO. So perhaps those lofty attendance predictions won't be too far off. Though, no word on concession prices. Hopefully they feature a lot of the local Charlotte breweries here. The stadium will seat approximately 10,200 people. Parking will be modestly priced at $5 for some areas near Mint Street. More info here: http://www.wcnc.com/sports/Charlotte-Knights-will-play-ball-in-Uptown-April-14-193645571.html

Edited February 28, 2013 by wend28

[eastsider]

Happy to see that ticket prices will remain very resonable, the new stadium should be a great draw.

[ah59396]

If I can get in there for $9. I'm perfectly fine with spending $6 for a local craft brew. Don't fail me Knights. I'm ready to embrace you.

[kermit]

^ while it doesn't mean much but they do a pretty good job serving local beer in Greensboro and a great job at the Winston-Salem ballpark. I am optimistic that the local brewers will be prominent here.

Edited February 28, 2013 by kermit

[Guest]

A few pieces of info regarding BB&T Ballpark were released today by the team (some which isn't really new news). One is that there will in fact be a team owned hotel behind the left field wall as depicted in the renderings. It will be 125 rooms and have underground parking. It isn't clear to me in the article whether or not it will be ready for the April 2014 stadium opening. If it is, they have some fast construction workers. The rest of the ballpark is set to be mostly completed by the end of this year, with finishing touches to be applied in early 2014.

 

The other piece is that most all of the tickets will be priced the same as they are today down in Fort Mill. The exception being box and club seats which will be $18 and $21. General Admission seats will be $9 and lawn seats in the outfield will be $6. This will be a complete steal IMO. So perhaps those lofty attendance predictions won't be too far off. Though, no word on concession prices. Hopefully they feature a lot of the local Charlotte breweries here. The stadium will seat approximately 10,200 people. Parking will be modestly priced at $5 for some areas near Mint Street. More info here: http://www.wcnc.com/sports/Charlotte-Knights-will-play-ball-in-Uptown-April-14-193645571.html

 

Later Wednesday, Knights executive vice president and chief operating officer Dan Rajkowski told the Observer: “We are in discussions with various developers regarding a hotel, potential office space and mixed-use with some underground parking.”

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/02/27/3882668/knights-plan-to-build-hotel-near.html#storylink=cpy

Verrrry interesting. Looks like there could me more to it.

[15895]

Were it mixed use... Wouldn't it be more office than hotel? 125 room hotel is nearly 1/2 of the embassy suites. With underground parking hope we get some good retail.

[Urbanity]

Hotel details, underground parking, great admission prices - all great news!

 

Re: discussion of local beers - the Fort Mill stadium already has an OMB beer garden as part of it.  I don't know if that is to be expanded to other local breweries in the new stadium but at least we know the Knights already have a track record of serving local beer.

[HopHead]

Were it mixed use... Wouldn't it be more office than hotel? 125 room hotel is nearly 1/2 of the embassy suites. With underground parking hope we get some good retail.

 

Yea, 125 rooms isn't a lot. I suspect we could very well see a few floors of office space based on that article. Perhaps the building will grow in height (don't think the footprint can expand based on the site they have to work with).

[dubone]

To be honest, this article does not seem like new news.  We've known for a while that they are looking at a medium-sized hotel but hoped for more if they could get it.  More or less the only thing new is a room count.

 

It does seem small though when put in the context of the Embassy Suites going in to 2nd Ward, but I guess there are constraints for the team not wanting too complex of a project to take on. 

 

I interpreted the hints of office space to be more or less like the office space in Trademark, just a few floors, but it would be great if they could get funding for enough to make this closer to 15-20 stories versus the 8 stories shown in their renderings and implied by a 125-room hotel.

[Urbanity]

I think the 8 story building is perfect.  As it is the building will partially block the view of the Trademark and Vue as well as the planned North Tryon tower (forgot the name - but by the motel).  

 

Anything taller would really close in on the ballpark which to me takes away the experience of watching the game in the middle of the city.

Edit:  Found a rendering to illustrates what I mean:

Edited February 28, 2013 by Urbanity

[15895]

A 125 room hotel mixed use 8 story building? 8 stories seems a little short for that. Ground floor Lobby/Retail, 3 floors hotel 4 floors office?

[Urbanity]

Google (images) 125 room hotels and you'll see a few examples with some being four stories so eight doesn't seem off to me at all for mixed use.

 

I think Dubone is right when he says think along the lines of the Trademark which has 3-4 floors of office space near the base.  

 

The second rendering I linked above may provide an idea if you follow where the red/brick line lends on the building and the all-glass facade begins which can give you a visual.

 

I can see the Ground floor being the retail along with building and hotel lobby (all street facing); floors 2-4 being office; Floors 5-8 being hotel.  

[Guest]

A 125 room hotel mixed use 8 story building? 8 stories seems a little short for that. Ground floor Lobby/Retail, 3 floors hotel 4 floors office?

I count 10 floors in the rendering.   

[grodney]

I love OMB but I really hope they don't get a monopoly on the local beer.  Would love to see lots of local breweries represented in a beer garden.

 

I'll miss the tailgating at the current stadium.  Unless they're going to let me grill in the Mint St parking deck, we'll be taking the train.

Edited February 28, 2013 by grodney

[uptownliving]

The good thing about getting a midrise hotel/mixed use building on that spot is that it partially blocks the back side of the Trademark condos!