Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[Guest]

http://www.change.org/petitions/city-of-charlotte-nc-bring-mlb-to-charlotte

 

Wow, seeking 100 signatures. I don't think the City of Charlotte is the right person to petition. Just imagine how that would go over in the city. 

 

some of my favorite comments: 

 

 

Geez! If we can afford building the "Light Rail" system then we can get the MLB here too!

and

 

 

Because this expansion will draw more fans to Charlotte, give those fans more state pride, provide more jobs, and possibly lower taxes for the Queen City.

Lower Taxes???!!?!??!?!?!

[HopHead]

http://www.change.org/petitions/city-of-charlotte-nc-bring-mlb-to-charlotte

 

Wow, seeking 100 signatures. I don't think the City of Charlotte is the right person to petition. Just imagine how that would go over in the city. 

 

some of my favorite comments: 

 

 

and

 

 

Lower Taxes???!!?!??!?!?!

 

I'm speechless. Maybe these are some of the same people that were petitioning the White House to build a Death Star.

[cltbwimob]

What I find interesting is that an online gathering of Charlotte fanboys (and some fangirls perhaps) are using this forum to poke fun at another group of Charlotte fans who believe that Charlotte is now a major league city deserving of a major league ball team.  Before you make fun of them realize this...some on this forum were advocating that Charlotte make a bid for the Summer Olympics.  If we are too small to host an MLB team, then we are way too small to host the Summer Olympics.

 

I happen to agree with their position, although I think I have a more well reasoned argument in support of MLB in the Queen City.  And I do not really think a petition to city council will in any way change the fact that a Minor League stadium will be taking up two prime blocks of downtown real estate.  However do not be so quick to judge a group of Charlotteans who want to see MLB in the city.  Minor League baseball is just that...MINOR.  Case and point, last year the Knights played in the International League championships and it was scarcely mentioned in the news; even here on this thread it was barely mentioned if ever.  And that's because there are  few that care anything about MiLB in general.  Replace Minor League with MLB and put them in a playoff scenario... the air would be electric.  I saw the Braves win the World Series at Fulton County Stadium in 1995 and I would swear the excitement in that stadium would have registered as a small scale earthquake on the Richter Scale.  Minor league is relatively dull, even to me, and I am a raging baseball fanatic.  The only reason I ever attend Minor League games is to catch the Norfolk Tides to see who is up and coming in the Baltimore Orioles organization since the Orioles are my professional sports love interest (as well as the Carolina Panthers).

 

All that said, I will support the Knights, and I encourage others to do the same.  If the city shows their support, and the stadium is filled to capacity for the home games, then perhaps a struggling MLB team (Oakland, Tampa Bay I am looking at you) will look at our fan base and consider relocating.

Edited January 18, 2013 by cltbwimob

[Guest]

What I find interesting is that an online gathering of Charlotte fanboys (and some fangirls perhaps) are using this forum to poke fun at another group of Charlotte fans who believe that Charlotte is now a major league city deserving of a major league ball team.  Before you make fun of them realize this...some on this forum were advocating that Charlotte make a bid for the Summer Olympics.  If we are too small to host an MLB team, then we are way too small to host the Summer Olympics.

 

I happen to agree with their position, although I think I have a more well reasoned argument in support of MLB in the Queen City.  And I do not really think a petition to city council will in any way change the fact that a Minor League stadium will be taking up two prime blocks of downtown real estate.  However do not be so quick to judge a group of Charlotteans who want to see MLB in the city.  Minor League baseball is just that...MINOR.  Case and point, last year the Knights played in the International League championships and it was scarcely mentioned in the news; even here on this thread it was barely mentioned if ever.  And that's because there are  few that care anything about MiLB in general.  Replace Minor League with MLB and put them in a playoff scenario... the air would be electric.  I saw the Braves win the World Series at Fulton County Stadium in 1995 and I would swear the excitement in that stadium would have registered as a small scale earthquake on the Richter Scale.  Minor league is relatively dull, even to me, and I am a raging baseball fanatic.  The only reason I ever attend Minor League games is to catch the Norfolk Tides to see who is up and coming in the Baltimore Orioles organization since the Orioles are my professional sports love interest (as well as the Carolina Panthers).

 

All that said, I will support the Knights, and I encourage others to do the same.  If the city shows their support, and the stadium is filled to capacity for the home games, then perhaps a struggling MLB team (Oakland, Tampa Bay I am looking at you) will look at our fan base and consider relocating.

Don't get me wrong, I support the idea of MLB (in the future.) I just don't think we have the type of critical mass to support games during the week, and I don't see why anyone would want to move to a potentially worse situation. While I do think the attendance would be HOT at first, I feel it would fizzle. Give us some years, let us give the MiLB a chance downtown, hopefully it'll be a wildly popular event every time. I was mostly poking fun at the fact they were petitioning the City of Charlotte, and some of the comments about Lowering Taxes, however the hell that works.

[dubone]

People are balking at some modest updates to the BofA stadium, and some roads around a AAA stadium.  Can you imagine this city funding a $1.5B baseball stadium?  What about the fact that the city can't fully prove that it supports the major league teams it already has?    MLB is not coming this decade, and we have much more interesting things to spend a billion and a half dollars on.

[ah59396]

I dunno, the prospect of having another terrible pro sports team in this city is pretty tantalizing.

Just imagine; panthers, bobcats and the remnants of a marlins team that just traded all their players away. They'd be a perfect fit!

[Matthew.Brendan]

I dunno, the prospect of having another terrible pro sports team in this city is pretty tantalizing.

Just imagine; panthers, bobcats and the remnants of a marlins team that just traded all their players away. They'd be a perfect fit!

Ahhhh, so true.

Though the thing that excites me most about the Knights (besides that football and basketball hold zero interest for me) is that the Knights are a winning team aren't they? I could be wrong bit I thought they finished at or near first in their division in 2012?

edit: 83-61 for the season! .576 winning percentage! I am psyched

Edited January 18, 2013 by melk

[ah59396]

Honestly, I could care less if they win or not.  They are a minor league team.  What will make that team successful isn't as much the product on the field but the one off of it.  I go to minor league baseball games for the atmosphere.  Sunny day, pretty girls, skyline view, cheap beer and hot dogs. Add in the sounds and smells of the ball field and you've got me hooked.

[HopHead]

I dunno, the prospect of having another terrible pro sports team in this city is pretty tantalizing.

Just imagine; panthers, bobcats and the remnants of a marlins team that just traded all their players away. They'd be a perfect fit!

 

Seriously, I can't deal with any more losing in this town right now. Add a MLB baseball team here and we're Cleveland South.

[Niner National]

Seriously, I can't deal with any more losing in this town right now. Add a MLB baseball team here and we're Cleveland South.

You could always go watch the Charlotte 49ers. We're 15-2 

[jednc]

What I find interesting is that an online gathering of Charlotte fanboys (and some fangirls perhaps) are using this forum to poke fun at another group of Charlotte fans who believe that Charlotte is now a major league city deserving of a major league ball team.  Before you make fun of them realize this...some on this forum were advocating that Charlotte make a bid for the Summer Olympics.  If we are too small to host an MLB team, then we are way too small to host the Summer Olympics.

 

I happen to agree with their position, although I think I have a more well reasoned argument in support of MLB in the Queen City.  And I do not really think a petition to city council will in any way change the fact that a Minor League stadium will be taking up two prime blocks of downtown real estate.  However do not be so quick to judge a group of Charlotteans who want to see MLB in the city.  Minor League baseball is just that...MINOR.  Case and point, last year the Knights played in the International League championships and it was scarcely mentioned in the news; even here on this thread it was barely mentioned if ever.  And that's because there are  few that care anything about MiLB in general.  Replace Minor League with MLB and put them in a playoff scenario... the air would be electric.  I saw the Braves win the World Series at Fulton County Stadium in 1995 and I would swear the excitement in that stadium would have registered as a small scale earthquake on the Richter Scale.  Minor league is relatively dull, even to me, and I am a raging baseball fanatic.  The only reason I ever attend Minor League games is to catch the Norfolk Tides to see who is up and coming in the Baltimore Orioles organization since the Orioles are my professional sports love interest (as well as the Carolina Panthers).

 

All that said, I will support the Knights, and I encourage others to do the same.  If the city shows their support, and the stadium is filled to capacity for the home games, then perhaps a struggling MLB team (Oakland, Tampa Bay I am looking at you) will look at our fan base and consider relocating.

I've said this before on this site...I can remember very well back in the very early 1990's when the Twins were threatening to move and Charlotte was mentioned as a possibility. Back then there was a story in the Observer that quoted several sports analysts who said in their opinion Charlotte was 10 years away from being able to support an MLB team. Well, that was at least 20 years ago...so I for one am ready for us to move to the next level in Baseball. I am not against the Knights or the downtown stadium. I just recognize that Charlotte didn't get to where it is by settling for anything. We pushed for an NBA team when NO ONE else thought we could support it. We pushed for an NFL team when we were considered a long shot. We need to start thinking that way about MLB...and all the people who think they are just being "realistic" need to politely keep that opinion to themselves!

[Urbanity]

The fact is that we are NOT ready for MLB.

 

Just think about it.  81 home games a year requiring what, 20,000-25,000 seats a game at the lower end.  We just don't have the population pull for it at this time.

 

If Charlotte had to have another Major league franchise I would support Soccer over baseball.   

 

As dubone mentioned - the city being upset over $125 million renovation for an existing football stadium is nothing compared to the uproar that would happen for at least a billion for a new MLB stadium.  I think following the TWC Arena, NASCAR HOF, Knights Stadium, and now Panthers renovations - It's going to be a losing argument to even try to get taxpayers to foot funding for any new sports related project for several years.

[ah59396]

A while back, bizjournals did a report on sports saturated markets based on disposable income. The rankings below, from 0-100 relate to that. 100 is good, 0 is not. Again, this is for MLS, which requires roughly $16billion in disposable income. MLB requires close to $90billion. We cannot support an MLB team if the Panthers and Bobcats are here.

According to this, we couldn't financially even support an MLS team, let alone an MLB team.

Atlanta has a score of 31.

Baltimore, the possible new home of DC United, has a 19.

Raleigh, a possible site for a Carolina MLS team scored a 38.

San Diego has a score of 88.

Charlotte, Detroit, Phoenix, St. Louis and Tampa all scored a 0.

Cities that scored a 100 include Las Vegas, Miami-Ft. Lauderdale and Orlando.

I couldn't find the actual PDF, but this report is from about 2 years ago.

Edited January 18, 2013 by ah59396

[dubone]

It's like cold fusion.  You might figure we'd have been ten years away in the 1990s, but we aren't.  Our competitors also grew, and the leapfrogging costs of stadiums is through the roof, and the economics of the MLB only really allow rich teams (in rich cities) to prosper.   Not a great environment to be just barely eligible. 

 

EDIT:  and perfect to see quantifiable analysis to show it.  

[Urbanity]

Cool stats about the MLS rankings. I never saw that before but it doesn't surprise me.

 

BTW - The good news is that maybe in ten years or so when we are ready we'll be building a new state of the art stadium for its time.  Hopefully by then everything won't have to be in teh 277 loop either but just North, East, or West of it (I think South is too densely developed already to have a stadium fit)

Edited January 18, 2013 by Urbanity

[cltbwimob]

A while back, bizjournals did a report on sports saturated markets based on disposable income. The rankings below, from 0-100 relate to that. 100 is good, 0 is not. Again, this is for MLS, which requires roughly $16billion in disposable income. MLB requires close to $90billion. We cannot support an MLB team if the Panthers and Bobcats are here.

According to this, we couldn't financially even support an MLS team, let alone an MLB team.

Atlanta has a score of 31.

Baltimore, the possible new home of DC United, has a 19.

Raleigh, a possible site for a Carolina MLS team scored a 38.

San Diego has a score of 88.

Charlotte, Detroit, Phoenix, St. Louis and Tampa all scored a 0.

Cities that scored a 100 include Las Vegas, Miami-Ft. Lauderdale and Orlando.

I couldn't find the actual PDF, but this report is from about 2 years ago.

As the old saying goes, "The Devil is in the details".  And it is readily apparent with respect to the study cited that the aforementioned idiom still rings true today.  As someone who is educated in the sciences and and having a career in the aviation industry, I have spent a considerable amount of time analyzing data notwithstanding analyzing various data sets such as demographic trends, major league attendance reports, etc. as a personal hobby (I have nerdy hobbies; I know).  The stated study is, in my estimation flawed on at least six accounts with regard to it's ability to accurately determine the validity of a market for professional sports, and as such, is largely useless in providing any pertinent information to the MLB vs MiLB in Charlotte debate.

 

First, a summary of the study is appropriate.  The authors of the study used total personal income (not disposable income), henceforth to be referred to as TPI for brevity, of multiple urban regions across the nation to analyze the level of professional sports saturation of said regions.  They estimated that MLS would require $15 billion; NBA, NFL, NHL would each require approximately $35 billion; and MLB would require $85 billion.  To analyze each market, they compared the TPI of the market to the sum of all major sports franchises' estimated requirement.  If a market's professional sports franchises "commanded" more than a market's TPI, then the market was said to be over-saturated.  In Charlotte's case, it was said to be marginally over-saturated with a TPI of $69.2 billion versus a required $70+billion for the NBA and NFL franchises located in the city.

 

To say that the study is not useful in predicting a market's potential for success is an understatement.  First, the metric used in the study, TPI, is not directly relevant to sports since sports rely on disposable income.  What I mean by this is that higher TPI does not always translate into higher disposable income.  Using TPI fails to take into account very real aspects of personal finance such as mortgage/rent, consumer debt, etc. that tend to dilute the disposable income on which sports franchises rely.  Here is an example.  Baltimore, in the study, had a TPI in excess of $120 billion, and as such, was not said not to be over-saturated.  Having lived in that area, I will say that one's TPI needs to be much higher in that region in order to maintain a level of disposable income necessary to support  major league sports.  For instance, my one bedroom 750 sq ft suburban apartment near Rte 50 cost me approximately the same month over month as a large McMansion in a Charlotte subdivision.  The study ignored cost of living in one region relative to another by using TPI rather than disposable income.

 

Second, the study analyzed regions on the basis of their respective MSA rather than more appropriate measures of regional sports catchment areas such as CSAs.  In Charlotte's case, this unnecessarily limited the scope with which the city was evaluated.  It failed to take into account the 700k people located in the CSA but not the MSA who most certainly are part of the catchment area for local sports in addition to ignoring counties such as Catawba county which is also part of the Charlotte sports catchment area even though they belong to entirely different MSAs.  If the Charlotte Regional Partnership definition of the region was used for this study (which is honestly a much more accurate reflection of the "sports" region at large), the TPI numbers would likely jump over $100 billion dollars for the region.

 

Third,  13 markets listed as oversaturated were MLB markets.  That is almost half the major league markets in the country.  In fact, the two most over-sturated markets according to the study, Denver and Milwaukee consistently enjoy top ten or top fifteen attendance numbers.  Additionally, some of the markets not considered over-saturated typically have poor attendance records.  See Baltimore, Seattle, Oakland, and historically Miami.

 

Fourth, the study fails to take into account issues of regional pride, sports fanaticism, marketing etc.  In the mid 90s Hornets average attendance numbers were just shy of the MLB average in 2011.  Mull over that fact for a minute.  Attendance for the Charlotte NBA franchise when Charlotte was a much smaller city than now was higher than the average attendance of about 1/3 of the MLB teams today.  Also, the Panthers consistently finish 6 or 7th in attendance in the NFL despite being one of the smallest markets and only having 4 winning seasons.  These two examples highlight the fact that market size, and, by extension, TPI, is not always the most important factor in developing a wildly popular (and profitable) product.

 

Fifth, the study does not account for Minor League or college teams present within a particular area.  Those teams also require monetary support from the community in which they reside, yet they were not analyzed in the study.

 

Sixth and finally, even the authors stated that their study is not particularly useful in predicting the success [or failure] of a sports team within a particular market.  If the very authors of the study claim this is a limitation to the study, then I submit that it is virtually worthless to cite this study in defense of the position that Major League Baseball will not work in the QC.  Thanks to jednc for fighting the good fight with me.

 

EDIT:  As an aside, the two most often cited relocation candidates are Oakland and Tampa Bay.  Tampa Bay is consistently in the playoffs and Oakland won their division last year.  I would not be too worried about getting a third losing team if we got either of those.

Edited January 19, 2013 by cltbwimob

[DEnd]

 We pushed for an NBA team when NO ONE else thought we could support it. We pushed for an NFL team when we were considered a long shot. We need to start thinking that way about MLB...and all the people who think they are just being "realistic" need to politely keep that opinion to themselves!

 

The difference is with both of those we had the corporate support to pull that off. Right now we don't. Raleigh might have it. I don't see either area being able to pull in 30,000 people 162 times a year, that is everyone in the Charlotte MSA going to at least one game a year or more(1.2 games on average). In comparison for the Bobcats to match attendance with the Bulls (#1 in the league for attendance) everyone only has to go to one Bobcats game about every 4 years. It is a similar number with the Panthers (who are at #6 in the league for attendance, and are 99.3% sold out at each game). To seriously consider a MLB team we need a population of at least 4 million right now, by the time we get to that number the population and disposable income level requirements may very likely go up even further. MLB is something to shoot for but Charlotte and the region have a lot more pressing issues to deal with (like getting rail transit to Mooresville, Monroe, and Gastonia). We are not going to miss out on an MLB team, the bottom few teams in income will always be looking for greener pastures.

[ah59396]

Cltbwimob,

I got nothing to argue those points. I still don't think we can support an MLB team yet. And I imagine by the time we do, our window of opportunity may have closed and either Portland, Austin or both, will have MLB.

[Urbanity]

 cltbwimob - you obviously looked at the study and put some time into your argument, and I appreciate your providing this information. 

 

I will be frank and say it doesn't sway my basic feeling that Charlotte (area) is currently not capable of filling 20-25K seats (and that's the low number)  for each of the 81 MLB home game if we had a franchise.   I just don't see it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Urbanity

[carolinagarnet]

Cltbwimob,

I got nothing to argue those points. I still don't think we can support an MLB team yet. And I imagine by the time we do, our window of opportunity may have closed and either Portland, Austin or both, will have MLB.

 

Portland seems to be under saturated in terms of sports teams, but I think Austin is really the best candidate for any new professional sports franchise. The Austin-San Antonio area has a combined MSA population of about 3.2M and only one pro team- the Spurs- which draws fans from both cities. While there is competition for attention with the University of Texas, I think that would mainly be an issue for an NFL team. The area has some huge corporations based there, most notably Dell, and plenty of high net worth individuals to buy boxes.

[jednc]

 

EDIT:  and perfect to see quantifiable analysis to show it.  

I don't follow what this statement is referring to. What quantifiable analysis are you seeing?

[jednc]

The difference is with both of those we had the corporate support to pull that off. Right now we don't. Raleigh might have it. I don't see either area being able to pull in 30,000 people 162 times a year, that is everyone in the Charlotte MSA going to at least one game a year or more(1.2 games on average). In comparison for the Bobcats to match attendance with the Bulls (#1 in the league for attendance) everyone only has to go to one Bobcats game about every 4 years. It is a similar number with the Panthers (who are at #6 in the league for attendance, and are 99.3% sold out at each game). To seriously consider a MLB team we need a population of at least 4 million right now, by the time we get to that number the population and disposable income level requirements may very likely go up even further. MLB is something to shoot for but Charlotte and the region have a lot more pressing issues to deal with (like getting rail transit to Mooresville, Monroe, and Gastonia). We are not going to miss out on an MLB team, the bottom few teams in income will always be looking for greener pastures.

 

Just to respond to a few of the assertions you make...

 

• If a theoretical Charlotte MLB Team were to draw an average attendance of 30,000 per game, that would put us in the TOP half for attendance of all MLB Teams for the 2012 season. We would not have to draw 30,000 to be successful, but that would be great.
• There are only 81 home games, not 162...so that screws up your attendance assertions.
• You assert we need a population of 4M to support an MLB Team yet Milwaukee was in the top 12 for attendance the last 6 years (top 10 for 3 of those) of all MLB Teams and their CSA Population is about 1.75M (not quite 3/4 of Charlotte's CSA Pop).

 

I don't claim that Charlotte can support an MLB franchise, but I do think some/most of the arguments against it are specious and quite honestly just people pulling stuff out of their (well, you know).

[ssh214]

As much as as I wish we could reel in a team like the Rays we have to be realistic, especially with this stadium being built now it is going to be at least two decades before we can even be in the discussion for a team and even that might be a stretch. Not every city needs to have every Major League presence in its city (i.e. Los Angeles and no NFL team...). However, with this being said, if we do want a MLB team or even an MLS team (for that matter why doesn't anyone ever mention moving the Hurricanes to Charlotte) we need to do a better job in supporting the Bobcats regardless of how much they may suck. Also, we need to virtually sell out every Knights game in the beautiful new ballpark they are building so maybe the city members can leave the parcels next to the stadium open so that down the road maybe they can expand the stadium to an MLB style ballpark and then we can be in the major leagues Charlotte!

[jednc]

As much as as I wish we could reel in a team like the Rays we have to be realistic, especially with this stadium being built now it is going to be at least two decades before we can even be in the discussion for a team and even that might be a stretch. Not every city needs to have every Major League presence in its city (i.e. Los Angeles and no NFL team...). However, with this being said, if we do want a MLB team or even an MLS team (for that matter why doesn't anyone ever mention moving the Hurricanes to Charlotte) we need to do a better job in supporting the Bobcats regardless of how much they may suck. Also, we need to virtually sell out every Knights game in the beautiful new ballpark they are building so maybe the city members can leave the parcels next to the stadium open so that down the road maybe they can expand the stadium to an MLB style ballpark and then we can be in the major leagues Charlotte!

I wouldn't expect that they would intentionally leave land around the Knights' Stadium vacant in hopes of someday building a major league park. I would hope that this new stadium will draw development all around it. When/if the day comes when Charlotte is building a major league stadium, they will certainly be looking elsewhere in the city to do it. If anything, I would think that they would then tear down Knights' Stadium and redevelop that land (that's assuming MLB doesn't come until near the end of the Knights' Stadium normal life-span).

[ah59396]

We can't even support an NBA team...this is insane guys. It isn't going to happen , nor should it.