Carolina Panthers Facilities

[InSouthPark]

There is no chance 24 NFL owners are going to approve a move from one of the fastest growing cities in the country and 22nd biggest TV market (not to mention moving a brand new MLS team which has the 2nd biggest attendance in the league) with 65k PSL holders obligated to buy tickets.   You don't just get to pack up the uhauls and move to Baltimore anymore.  Jerry Jones is the most powerful owner in the NFL and there is no way he is allowing a team to move to Austin or San Antonio and take away market share from the Cowboys.   If this might have been 10 years ago and flirting with LA?  Sure, maybe.  There is no where "better" to go. 

 

[J-Rob]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

They absolutely do and its not like they were keeping it a secret.  On April 6th, Nick Kelly (Former TSE CEO) posted this:

 

This is the exact tweet I had in mind, but several people have left since then (including Nick Kelly), which me makes question when "soon" might be. I assume Tepper is doing the deal making, but who is running things on a daily basis to keep things moving with Tom Glick, Nick Kelly, and Mark Hart gone?

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I will say this out loud how tied is he to Charlotte region? I wondered this from the beginning with homes in NJ, FL and from Pittsburgh.  Would he back the city in a corner over a new stadium with threats of leaving? I can see that.  He is a hedge fund billionaire but not a real estate developer or someone who used to complicated real estate deals. 

and please no one say never.  Never would the Charlotte Hornets leave but they did and we got one back luckily.  Something is going on not sure what is Austin calling his name?  I hope I am in 100% wrong but given what is happening here of late I am concerned.  But of course he could sell the team and make some money and move on himself. 

I am hopeful that the addition of Charlotte FC to his portfolio makes this less likely.  Still, the constant firings/resignations are  concerning. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by J-Rob

[Reverie39]

2 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

There is no chance 24 NFL owners are going to approve a move from one of the fastest growing cities in the country and 22nd biggest TV market (not to mention moving a brand new MLS team which has the 2nd biggest attendance in the league) with 65k PSL holders obligated to buy tickets.   You don't just get to pack up the uhauls and move to Baltimore anymore.  Jerry Jones is the most powerful owner in the NFL and there is no way he is allowing a team to move to Austin or San Antonio and take away market share from the Cowboys.   If this might have been 10 years ago and flirting with LA?  Sure, maybe.  There is no where "better" to go. 

 

Yeah, this is my take too. I'm looking at the list of TV markets by size now and the only markets larger than Charlotte without NFL teams are Orlando, Sacramento, and Portland. First of all it's worth mentioning that Sacramento and Portland are nearly identical to Charlotte in market size, and second of all that Charlotte is growing explosively and will jump up this list soon like you said. Third, Orlando is in a state with three other teams already, and Sacramento is (if I had to guess) full of 49ers and possibly Raiders fans already due to proximity to the Bay. Portland is the only sort of isolated city there, and even then I bet there's some Seahawks loyalty.

I also have to wonder how much they look at a singular city's market versus a larger region. I mean, NC is really heavily populated. There are tons of Panthers fans in the Triangle and Triad, Asheville, Wilmington, etc. comprising a state of 10 million people. Like okay, so you move to Portland which has a similar market size but the rest of Oregon has almost no one in it... how is that really advantageous? 

I have to think it's unlikely owners approve a move. Charlotte may be a "small" market team but there are only 32 teams and four of them share two markets... so being ranked 22 is no joke and there isn't really a way to move up at this point. They'd be more likely to allow Jacksonville to move first.

[KJHburg]

I agree the NFL would not want to approve a move out of the Charlotte and Carolinas market it would be stupid for the league.  Plus look at our corporate base here in Charlotte compared to Orlando, Sac and Portland.  Of course Nike is in Portland but politically the city is a basket case right now with almost weekly riots. Companies are looking to move out and a few have. 

One day Texas will have its 3rd NFL team as the market is just too huge to ignore that and it will be in San Antonio or Austin.  

I dont know if Mr Tepper is making rookie owner mistakes, difficult to work for or what but just because you have billions from a hedge fund business does not mean that translates to running a sports team that has a very public face.  I would suggest he hire some PR people but maybe like it was said he does not care.  

I think he has done these good things making use of the stadium for more concerts and of course the MLS team addition.   But nobody likes a billionaire bully.  Burton Smith threatened to move the speedway from Concord and they settled for infrastructure improvements.  a few years later he was tearing out 1000s of seats.  But Cabarrus and Concord stood up to him and at least the improvements done benefit all residents just not him as they were mainly road improvements.  

[InSouthPark]

39 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

hare two markets... so being ranked 22 is no joke and there isn't really a way to move up at this point. They'd be more likely to allow Jacksonville to move first.

Not to mention, Greenvlle-Spartarnburg-Ashevlle is 37, Raleigh 24, and Greensboro 46, which are squarely Panthers TV markets.   4 of the top 50 tv markets in are NC and upstate.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by InSouthPark

[JHart]

30 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

 Of course Nike is in Portland but politically the city is a basket case right now with almost weekly riots. Companies are looking to move out and a few have. 

Turn off Fox News or take it to the Political Digression Thread. 

[TCLT]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Something is going on not sure what is Austin calling his name?

49 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

the only markets larger than Charlotte without NFL teams are Orlando, Sacramento, and Portland.

All of these cities have an MLS team (granted Sacramento's entrance into MLS is on indefinite hold, but they have an existing team in the USL in place already). Tepper paid $350 million for the MLS franchise, he's not gonna let that go. He's can't move to a city with a team already (LA and NY are the only markets that can reasonably support two MLS teams right now). And he's not moving the Panthers but leaving CFC here. CFC as the sole occupant of BofA Stadium makes no sense, plus the backlash to moving the Panthers would spill over to CFC if he tried to keep it here. San Antonio would be the only realistic place he'd be able to look at, but Texas is pretty saturated with football and soccer teams. There's no other markets that have neither a NFL nor MLS team and are as large as Charlotte or growing faster than Charlotte. The Panthers and CFC aren't moving, and this isn't a diabolical plan to blackmail the city/state and lay the groundwork for pulling the team(s). I think this is firmly a case of never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Tepper is proving himself to be eminently incompetent at all things having to do with running professional sports franchises. He's hired poorly, he and his team have recruited poorly, the coaching is a failure, the on field product is mediocre, and fan service and community outreach has been poor. And of course everything related to real estate projects has been a disaster. The fantastic home attendance and home record for CFC can be attributed to grass roots excitement for soccer in Charlotte and is in spite of some poor decisions from TSE regarding PSLs, ticket prices, and concession prices. The only success he's had is at something that can be done by simply throwing money at it, namely winning the MLS expansion team.

[urbanlover568]

4 hours ago, CTiger said:

Personally I think this is all posturing for future stadium negotiations.  I think Tepper is trying to build up a reputation of "if you don't give me what I want, I'll take my business elsewhere".  

This corporate welfare given to Billionaires at the expense of taxpayers is disgusting.  Reminds of this Silicon Valley episode:

 

[Desert Power]

25 minutes ago, TCLT said:

I think this is firmly a case of never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Tepper is proving himself to be eminently incompetent at all things having to do with running professional sports franchises. He's hired poorly, he and his team have recruited poorly, the coaching is a failure, the on field product is mediocre, and fan service and community outreach has been poor. And of course everything related to real estate projects has been a disaster. The fantastic home attendance and home record for CFC can be attributed to grass roots excitement for soccer in Charlotte and is in spite of some poor decisions from TSE regarding PSLs, ticket prices, and concession prices. The only success he's had is at something that can be done by simply throwing money at it, namely winning the MLS expansion team.

I think this is the most likely explanation for what is going on.

[15895]

Wouldn't Raleigh be 

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

Not to mention, Greenvlle-Spartarnburg-Ashevlle is 37, Raleigh 24, and Greensboro 46, which are squarely Panthers TV markets.   4 of the top 50 tv markets in are NC and upstate.

 

Couldn't Raleigh-Durham capture the same market and retain all of it's existing fan base if not potentially expanding deeper into Virginia? Raleigh could be a contender for likely both NFL and MLS (I always thought Raleigh was a stronger MLS market than Charlotte.) I'm not suggesting CAR will leave, I'm just saying I don't think it's that out of the realm of possibility for the Panthers to leave Charlotte given other markets without a team (Austin/San Antonio among others as mentioned earlier). 

I haven't followed the drama with Tepper. Last I remember he was a darling of Urban Planet.

[ArchiCLT]

1 hour ago, JHart said:

Turn off Fox News or take it to the Political Digression Thread. 

Coming to the defense of KJ, it's funny how it's only political when you happen to disagree with it. I can name several users on multiple non-political threads who post snarky, politically-charged comments every single time they post. UrbanPlanet is quickly turning into an echo-chamber with only one accepted viewpoint.

[JHart]

4 minutes ago, theronhobbs said:

Coming to the defense of KJ, it's funny how it's only political when you happen to disagree with it. I can name several users on multiple non-political threads who post snarky, politically-charged comments every single time they post. UrbanPlanet is quickly turning into an echo-chamber with only one accepted viewpoint.

Do you actually think there are weekly riots in the city of Portland? That's not a political viewpoint, it's a lie. 

There will always be some element of politics when discussing public infrastructure spending or because of the influence our elected officials have over local development; but this comment was such an outlandish, unrelated claim I felt like it needed to be called out. This site is about discussing smart urban development, public transit, infrastructure improvements, etc.; it's no secret most users tend to share similar beliefs about our public institutions. 

[TCLT]

Wouldn't Raleigh be 
Couldn't Raleigh-Durham capture the same market and retain all of it's existing fan base if not potentially expanding deeper into Virginia? Raleigh could be a contender for likely both NFL and MLS (I always thought Raleigh was a stronger MLS market than Charlotte.) I'm not suggesting CAR will leave, I'm just saying I don't think it's that out of the realm of possibility for the Panthers to leave Charlotte given other markets without a team (Austin/San Antonio among others as mentioned earlier). 
I haven't followed the drama with Tepper. Last I remember he was a darling of Urban Planet.

There’s no way the state would provide funds to support a move to Raleigh. Right? Right?!? It would be a horrible precedent to set. And it would be even more expensive to capture largely the same market as staying in Charlotte.

[15895]

49 minutes ago, theronhobbs said:

Coming to the defense of KJ, it's funny how it's only political when you happen to disagree with it. I can name several users on multiple non-political threads who post snarky, politically-charged comments every single time they post. UrbanPlanet is quickly turning into an echo-chamber with only one accepted viewpoint.

No, that’s not true. There are lots of fallacies when it comes to the rioting, looting, on fire narratives that are often espoused in context of any liberal city. But it’s like wack a mole trying to dispel any of it. 

I won’t go off topic but I feel sorry for people who’s views on New York, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, Portland etc are these views of rioting, looting, decaying, dying cities. The projects, transformations, improvements etc going on in these cities are extraordinary.

Lots of points I could make. But I don’t want to derail. As I said, it’s just a big loss for people to live life thinking that. 

Now would be a good time for SydneyCarlton to talk about things happening in NY lol. 

18 minutes ago, TCLT said:

There’s no way the state would provide funds to support a move to Raleigh. Right? Right?!? It would be a horrible precedent to set. And it would be even more expensive to capture largely the same market as staying in Charlotte.

I mean. If Wake offered a lot of public $ towards a stadium or land, I don’t see why NC wouldn’t offer some $ to wherever the team would land in NC? Though I’m sure Winston-Salem would be super happy if Charlotte lost a professional team to somewhere else in NC lol. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[turbocraig]

22 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

No, that’s not true. There are lots of fallacies when it comes to the rioting, looting, on fire narratives that are often espoused in context of any liberal city. But it’s like wack a mole trying to dispel any of it. 

I won’t go off topic but I feel sorry for people who’s views on New York, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, Portland etc are these views of rioting, looting, decaying, dying cities. The projects, transformations, improvements etc going on in these cities are extraordinary.

Lots of points I could make. But I don’t want to derail. As I said, it’s just a big loss for people to live life thinking that. 

Now would be a good time for SydneyCarlton to talk about things happening in NY lol. 

It’s a mixed bag.  We have friends in Berkeley and LA so we go out there on average a couple times a year and last time we were in SF last summer, I forgot to pack contact solution so we found a Walgreens downtown and while we were there, a homeless person packed a backpack full of stuff and just walked out past a security guard 20’ away.  Then add the smash and grab at the department stores in Union Square a while back and it’s just not a good look.  It gets publicity because it’s San Fran (would it make nightly news if someone smashed and grabbed at a JCPenney in Kenosha?) so there is that spotlight aspect too.  But the reality is, if I lived there and saw that on even a semi-regular basis, my views would be impacted.   I’m a liberal-leaning Independent, but I gotta call what I see.  There’s a ton of good stuff for sure, but like any big city in a tumultuous time, there are gonna be challenges.  

Edited July 21, 2022 by turbocraig

[49er]

People walk in a steal from businesses all over Charlotte and suburbs on a daily basis. I see Nextdoor comments pretty frequently where people are watching shoplifters load up and walk out the door. I've seen it myself at home improvements stores multiple times.

 

Anyway, I do not trust Tepper and it sucks that we as a city and state may be forced one day into financial agreements with this guy. 

[JRCLT]

Coming to the defense of KJ, it's funny how it's only political when you happen to disagree with it. I can name several users on multiple non-political threads who post snarky, politically-charged comments every single time they post. UrbanPlanet is quickly turning into an echo-chamber with only one accepted viewpoint.

Generally I think people get snarky when it gets “off-topic” which really I get if it goes on and on then say something but if it’s a few posts and the main topic isn’t being discussed it should be a huge deal. Also to back you up with facts, this is very much having to do with politics. These plan were made in conjunction with local governments and the panthers with up to state government involved. Saying there is no merit for political background and supportive detail is ignorant. Anything involving government is almost always political if not literally always. That is just a fact.

Addition: Before anyone says anything about KJ’s statement in a reply to my post, I want to clarify that I am not in agreement of his statement. What was stated and it’s validity I do not know. I am simply saying that people on this thread can be very snarky in their comments to others about topic which really- calm yourself. If you have an issue say it politely. Saying it either way has the same effect, but with a negative attitude you are less like to trigger the effect you want and you just look like an a**. This topic thing is all something to respect so forums don’t blend, but one comment or few isn’t going to hurt the thread.

[eastsider]

6 hours ago, TCLT said:

All of these cities have an MLS team (granted Sacramento's entrance into MLS is on indefinite hold, but they have an existing team in the USL in place already). Tepper paid $350 million for the MLS franchise, he's not gonna let that go. He's can't move to a city with a team already (LA and NY are the only markets that can reasonably support two MLS teams right now). And he's not moving the Panthers but leaving CFC here. CFC as the sole occupant of BofA Stadium makes no sense, plus the backlash to moving the Panthers would spill over to CFC if he tried to keep it here. San Antonio would be the only realistic place he'd be able to look at, but Texas is pretty saturated with football and soccer teams. There's no other markets that have neither a NFL nor MLS team and are as large as Charlotte or growing faster than Charlotte. The Panthers and CFC aren't moving, and this isn't a diabolical plan to blackmail the city/state and lay the groundwork for pulling the team(s). I think this is firmly a case of never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Tepper is proving himself to be eminently incompetent at all things having to do with running professional sports franchises. He's hired poorly, he and his team have recruited poorly, the coaching is a failure, the on field product is mediocre, and fan service and community outreach has been poor. And of course everything related to real estate projects has been a disaster. The fantastic home attendance and home record for CFC can be attributed to grass roots excitement for soccer in Charlotte and is in spite of some poor decisions from TSE regarding PSLs, ticket prices, and concession prices. The only success he's had is at something that can be done by simply throwing money at it, namely winning the MLS expansion team.

Thinking outside the box, two markets have two teams sharing one venue. Wouldn't Las Vegas rather have 17 NFL home dates rather than 8-9? It is also a market itching for an MLS franchise. The stadium is in place, just needs to strike a deal with the Raiders. Vegas has exploded in recent years with the introduction of pro sports and is always looking to add entertainment options for the hoards of tourists. Its looking highly probable the MLB and NBA will also be there by the end of the decade.

[kermit]

8 hours ago, TCLT said:

 Tepper paid $350 million for the MLS franchise, he's not gonna let that go.

I agree with all of your post, but I'll point out that the $350 million he paid for MLS is only marginally more (for Tepper, $67 million?) than what he walked away from in Rock Hill.

Edited July 22, 2022 by kermit

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

Addition: Before anyone says anything about KJ’s statement in a reply to my post, I want to clarify that I am not in agreement of his statement. What was stated and it’s validity I do not know. I am simply saying that people on this thread can be very snarky in their comments to others about topic which really- calm yourself. If you have an issue say it politely. Saying it either way has the same effect, but with a negative attitude you are less like to trigger the effect you want and you just look like an a**. This topic thing is all something to respect so forums don’t blend, but one comment or few isn’t going to hurt the thread.

Agree with this piece.

I'll just say that I think this forum is a very good one that helps Charlotte move forward. There is a reason it is one of the most trafficked on this website. I can see why KJ's post may upset people, but it is a very small part of his posting on this subforum. We all have political beliefs that bleed into our commentary here so let's have some grace for those with different views.

Worthwhile to remember we are all posting to make a better city (or cities), even when we disagree about how to get there. Let's focus on what what we agree on and the studies behind it.

Might be good to have a separate Tepper topic in the off topic forum. He is, unfortunately, pretty controversial after his numerous failed promises.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

18 hours ago, TCLT said:

There’s no way the state would provide funds to support a move to Raleigh. Right? Right?!? It would be a horrible precedent to set. And it would be even more expensive to capture largely the same market as staying in Charlotte.

A much smaller 100 mile radius... which is NFLs measurement of a market.

[SpiritOf76]

On 7/21/2022 at 2:56 PM, theronhobbs said:

Coming to the defense of KJ, it's funny how it's only political when you happen to disagree with it. I can name several users on multiple non-political threads who post snarky, politically-charged comments every single time they post. UrbanPlanet is quickly turning into an echo-chamber with only one accepted viewpoint.

Taking this opportunity  to also defend KJ and support “theronhobbs” for defending him against “snarky” posters.  This site definitely has its share of pretentious posters. Arrogance about … 

[KJHburg]

Hey everyone lets not make this anymore about me.  (I guess I am as controversial as Mr Tepper which is funny to me) Some posters don't like me that is okay.  Should have not put the line about Portland's civil unrest  but Portland would not be a good location for an NFL or MLB team at this point for lots of reasons.  Unfortunately politics creeps into every thread a lot and for me to called on it (guilty) but not mentioned the hundreds of other times by others  is telling.  (there is a great function on UP little used it is called the ignore poster function use it if you like)   If someone does not like what I say or needs further clarification just message me I promise you will not get a tirade back  as I have communicated with many of you.  

In terms of Mr Tepper I do think he is not building community trust with his recent real estate decisions involving Eastland Mall site and even the Rock Hill site.  I still think the Rock Hill site is the best location for his training facility and it will be interesting if in 6 months he is back there.   Everyone forgets he owns the Waterford golf course nearby off Dave Lyles too.  The chaos in the front office is troubling but maybe it will calm down.  This business of running an NFL team and now a MLS team in short order is way different than running a hedge fund.   And since this thread is about Panthers facilities it is appropriate here I think.  

 

 

[go_vertical]

Hey, politics are now forced into every aspect of daily life so don't regret a thing.  The comment really was a nothing burger and the response was a little overheated. 

[unctarheels]

100% think Tepper realized, just combining new CFC facilities with new Panther facilities at the CLT Pipe and Foundry land just makes the most sense for his overall plan. 

None of the players want to drive to Rock Hill, and he doesn't want to have to go to two different locations to operate.

He will buy the CLT P&F land, and build a new stadium to house both teams, and put both of their training facilities there, with a lot of hotels, bars, and restaurants.