Carolina Panthers Facilities

[turbocraig]

Article in Biz Journal today about their FOIA request for City of Rock Hill docs to support their public statements about issuing bonds or even being “within days” of issuing them.  Not a single doc/communication  related to their debt obligation from 1Jan-8Mar.  RH tells BJ that their doc release is “complete”.  Hmmm…

>>”The city responded with a document that included pages of exchanges related to the construction of the project — standard building permit and inspection process emails. That dispute over $225 million in infrastructure funding that had been boiling for almost a year? The one that led Tepper to call a halt to the entire project after spending more than $170 million? 

Nothing. 

It's not clear yet if the city is claiming exemptions for the internal communications related to the project or that they simply don't exist. But the city's public records response did not include a single email about the project or its financing between Rock Hill administrators or elected officials and Tepper Sports from Jan. 1, 2021, to March 8 of this year.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/22/rock-hill-panthers-financing-dispute.html

[joenc]

Think they should put it here by Waverly. Would make more sense for the players/employees and would ultimately be more valuable than any development in Rock Hill.

[Madison Parkitect]

57 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

Article in Biz Journal today about their FOIA request for City of Rock Hill docs to support their public statements about issuing bonds or even being “within days” of issuing them.  Not a single doc/communication  related to their debt obligation from 1Jan-8Mar.  RH tells BJ that their doc release is “complete”.  Hmmm…

>>”The city responded with a document that included pages of exchanges related to the construction of the project — standard building permit and inspection process emails. That dispute over $225 million in infrastructure funding that had been boiling for almost a year? The one that led Tepper to call a halt to the entire project after spending more than $170 million? 

Nothing. 

It's not clear yet if the city is claiming exemptions for the internal communications related to the project or that they simply don't exist. But the city's public records response did not include a single email about the project or its financing between Rock Hill administrators or elected officials and Tepper Sports from Jan. 1, 2021, to March 8 of this year.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/22/rock-hill-panthers-financing-dispute.html

It's fairly obvious to everyone at this point that this is Rock Hill's mess, right?

[CTiger]

So is the article hinting at a possibility that Rock Hill made all of these incentive offers and agreed to them without ever actually intending to secure them?   If there is no paper trail on the debt that would be my interpretation. (full disclosure, I don't have a Biz subscription so I am basing this off of the quoted excerpt.)

[kermit]

8 minutes ago, CTiger said:

So is the article hinting at a possibility that Rock Hill made all of these incentive offers and agreed to them without ever actually intending to secure them? 

I don’t have any information than you do but that seems like it would be outright fraud (not saying that is what happened here).

[InSouthPark]

3 hours ago, joenc said:

Think they should put it here by Waverly. Would make more sense for the players/employees and would ultimately be more valuable than any development in Rock Hill.

210 acres out there with one owner...dang.  Land would be considerably more to acquire and have less visibility but would open the opportunity to build something more dense.  Dallas' "Star" is only 91 acres. 

[KJHburg]

I caution everyone to reserve judgement at who is at fault based on media comments.  Rock Hill said they were told to hold off issuing the bonds and maybe Tepper was changing the scope of the project.  We just do not know yet.   If Mr Tepper thinks other counties will be willing to give lots of incentives to get this training facility I think he is mistaken and I don't think he thinks that.  
As I said this puts both parties in a bad light until the whole story has come out and I don't think snippets to the media from various people who may or may not be involved should be taken as a fact yet.   Sorry this is not a Charlotte team it is a regional team with supporters in both Carolinas and lots of people from outside the Charlotte metro area.    With the limited number of home games the NFL the draw is much more regional than the Charlotte Hornets who play lots of home games all during the week.    

[turbocraig]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I caution everyone to reserve judgement at who is at fault based on media comments.  Rock Hill said they were told to hold off issuing the bonds and maybe Tepper was changing the scope of the project.  We just do not know yet.   If Mr Tepper thinks other counties will be willing to give lots of incentives to get this training facility I think he is mistaken and I don't think he thinks that.  
As I said this puts both parties in a bad light until the whole story has come out and I don't think snippets to the media from various people who may or may not be involved should be taken as a fact yet.   Sorry this is not a Charlotte team it is a regional team with supporters in both Carolinas and lots of people from outside the Charlotte metro area.    With the limited number of home games the NFL the draw is much more regional than the Charlotte Hornets who play lots of home games all during the week.    

I hear you, but if the past several weeks is any guide, this story is going to develop with information coming forth in drips, and likely due to investigative journalism like today's Biz Journal's article.  It's going to be difficult for people to remain unswayed by what they read layer by layer slowly over time and to not talk about it.  Heck, we may never get the full story.   As for RH saying they were told not to issue the bonds but they were "Sooo" close to doing just that - welp, there wasn't anything released by RH to the Biz Journal to support that that was the case.  And if that's their main argument, wouldn't you think they'd include proof of the Panthers telling them to not issue any bonds to actually back up what they've been telling the public?  I have no inside info at all, but I did watch a lot of Scooby Doo as a kid.  And what I can't figure out is how RH missed a bond issuance deadline not once but twice but is now playing dumb.  See this article about this very subject from almost a year ago:

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/panthers-ask-york-county-help-after-rock-hill-fails-secure-infrastructure-funding/SO3DKXUX65FRVO5AFFQE33EJ3A/

And how does this recent statement from RH's mayor about them worrying about falling on hard times because of "changed circumstances" square with this "we're rich!" quote from Gov. McMaster a month later?  I get that state and local obligations were separate, but hell - RH benefits from the Charlotte Engine, which the rest of the SC doesn't even get.  Wouldn't it be fair to assume RH is part of this "strongest condition ever" of SC??

RH Mayor John Gettys quoted on 15Mar22:

The mayor added that changed circumstances since the deal with the Panthers was reached “necessitate us going back to the table and working on an agreement because times have changed.”

SC Gov. McMaster quoted on 19Apr22:

“In 2021, we broke a decade’s worth of records for job recruitment, investment, and expansion, announcing 18,000 new jobs and $5.6 billion in capital investment,” he added. “And our state government’s finances are in the strongest condition ever, with the largest budget surpluses, the largest rainy-day reserves, and the lowest debt in our history. South Carolina is winning, and we intend to keep winning. The best is yet to come!”

Yet another example of the contradictory statements coming out of SC.   And also notice whenever some SC official speaks, they use metaphors and catch phrases and redirection when speaking about this, instead of answering simple questions with actual facts?  "No one can say that we didn't do our absolute and professional best."  "Facts are stubborn things" (with no follow up about said "facts").  "David Tepper came to Rock Hill promising us Jerry Jones and ever since then he’s given us Dan Snyder.”  "David Tepper is an arrogant narcissist."  Really?  What does any of that mean?  You know what each of those comments sails right past?  Proof.  Facts.  Answers.  Evidence to back up what you're saying.  But that's just the thing - they aren't actually saying anything.  And that tells me a lot.  

Yes, we'll likely know the whole story or most of it after some time, but if the Panthers did tell them to not bother issuing bonds, that's likely because they were already 18 months late in doing just that and had missed two deadlines, and now RH is trying to grasp onto that as some sort of lifeline excuse.  I think IF the Panthers told them not to bother, and I'm not entirely convinced of that, but if so, it was likely because they had already decided by that point (again, 18mo later while the Panthers were busy racking up hundreds of millions in construction costs) to pause this and pursue litigation to try to recoup some of the $170+MM they'd sunk into this thing while RH has spent the past year and a half napping or whatever else they were doing besides holding up their end.  And I also think that's why the Panthers have been super tight-lipped about this.  KJ, I know you don't want to pre-judge, and I get that,  but I think this is currently the most fascinating subject here right now.  This is like the PTL of our time.  Well, I was around for that one too, so maybe the PTL of THIS time...

Anyway, that's what I think happened.  If I'm wrong, I won't run naked down Tryon St., and you can all thank me for that now.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by turbocraig

[KJHburg]

Oh I don't have a problem with it being discussed but all the facts are not in and I have learned not to make quick judgements based on partial information that we are getting media reports on.  

But how do you move forward from this?  I think the best option is still Rock Hill but maybe they can't afford to do it anymore.  (why they thought so and who was negotiating this deal anyway on the city behalf's?)     So do the Panthers just stay training uptown and inside the bubble in facilities they described as inadequate?   Does anyone think a local government will want to deal with Mr Tepper about a new facility in their county or city when we do not even know what happened here?  Is Mr Tepper 100% right in what he has said?  We just don't know yet.     I am hoping some behind the scenes work are being done at the state level with Mr Tepper's organization.   CEO of the state so to speak with CEO of Tepper organization.  The highway interchange is moving along nicely.  See my photos from Saturday. 

But discuss away that is fine I am not taking everything I read in the local media as gospel on this entire matter.   Truth has a way of coming around eventually sometimes it takes time. 

[Mid South NC]

Did anyone else watch the DT presser? Thought's? 

[CTiger]

Didn't get to watch, but based on Scott Fowler's tweet recap:

• Refused to discuss Rock Hill situation (bad)
• Says Sam Darnold is a very good QB (worse)
• Says Matt Rhule has his full support (worst)
• Changed stadium to artificial turf (worster)

[jessediebolt]

8 minutes ago, CTiger said:

Didn't get to watch, but based on Scott Fowler's tweet recap:

• Refused to discuss Rock Hill situation (bad)
• Says Sam Darnold is a very good QB (worse)
• Says Matt Rhule has his full support (worst)
• Changed stadium to artificial turf (worster)

 

Entire organization is a dumpster fire. It's truly unbelievable. 

[atlrvr]

Step 1 - Make team so uncompetitive that fans stop coming/watching
Step 2 - Antagonize taxpayers
Step 3 - Announce market no longer supporting team, and relocation may be only alternative
Step 4 - NC/SC promise 6 kajillion dollars to build Platinum coated facility with artificial turf field
Alternative Step 4 - Move team to different market that only offers 5 kajillion dollars but fan base there super duper excited, so make metric F-Ton 'o cash, then sell team for most recordist highest price in future history.

[HopHead]

I watched the Tepper presser. Nothing about what he said was surprising. I'd even say it was expected. He was never going to talk about the Rock Hill facility, no matter how many different ways the reporters were going to ask him. Whether he's looking at making the current location work or put it on hold until he finds another nearby location, he wasn't going to lay his cards out on the table. Quite frankly, I'm fine with Rock Hill and Tepper not having a public p1ssing match over the situation any more than what's occurred. I get what he said about the field turf and why it was put in. I'm not a fan of it either, but you certainly run the risk of deteriorating a natural surface with overuse with soccer and football plus the other events now at the stadium. Too bad they don't have a way to swap out the surface like some of the newer stadiums can do (see AZ and Las Vegas). Then again I'm also not a field maintenance professional either. Will be interesting to see what happens when that stadium feasibility study comes in... The comments about Rhule and Darnold are lip service. We all know that. He's not going to trash them in public. 

[Blue_Devil]

2 minutes ago, HopHead said:

I watched the Tepper presser. Nothing about what he said was surprising. I'd even say it was expected. He was never going to talk about the Rock Hill facility, no matter how many different ways the reporters were going to ask him. Whether he's looking at making the current location work or put it on hold until he finds another nearby location, he wasn't going to lay his cards out on the table. Quite frankly, I'm fine with Rock Hill and Tepper not having a public p1ssing match over the situation any more than what's occurred. I get what he said about the field turf and why it was put in. I'm not a fan of it either, but you certainly run the risk of deteriorating a natural surface with overuse with soccer and football plus the other events now at the stadium. Too bad they don't have a way to swap out the surface like some of the newer stadiums can do (see AZ and Las Vegas). Then again I'm also not a field maintenance professional either. Will be interesting to see what happens when that stadium feasibility study comes in... The comments about Rhule and Darnold are lip service. We all know that. He's not going to trash them in public. 

As a Bears fan, and with what soldier field goes through and the injuries that occur, yah I am supportive of artificial turf for the panthers

[CTiger]

5 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

As a Bears fan, and with what soldier field goes through and the injuries that occur, yah I am supportive of artificial turf for the panthers

Artificial turf has caused far more non-contact lower body injuries.  It doesn't give away like grass does so more stress is put on joints/ligaments.   It is certainly not safer than grass but I understand that if you want more than just football to take place on a field it is necessary.  

[Blue_Devil]

36 minutes ago, CTiger said:

Artificial turf has caused far more non-contact lower body injuries.  It doesn't give away like grass does so more stress is put on joints/ligaments.   It is certainly not safer than grass but I understand that if you want more than just football to take place on a field it is necessary.  

I don’t think you understand the issues with soldier field turf. It’s a know issue we’re they are regularly wearing long spikes because of how torn up it is. here is an example

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/9/26/22695074/poor-field-conditions-contribute-to-fires-0-0-tie-with-nashville-sc-soldier-field?_amp=true

[CTiger]

57 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

I don’t think you understand the issues with soldier field turf. It’s a know issue we’re they are regularly wearing long spikes because of how torn up it is. here is an example

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/9/26/22695074/poor-field-conditions-contribute-to-fires-0-0-tie-with-nashville-sc-soldier-field?_amp=true

Oh no, I get it.  The same problems exist at FedEx field which has claimed the careers of many NFL players.  Poorly maintained grass is probably just as bad, and if the Panthers aren't going to be able to maintain the grass well enough to make it a safe playing surface, then maybe this is the right call.  My point is that artificial turf is just inherently riskier due to the fact that it doesn't have any give to it.  The NFLPA openly advocates for the elimination of artificial turf due to safety concerns:

https://nflpa.com/posts/only-natural-grass-can-level-the-nfls-playing-field

There is also this study that shows that 58% more injuries occur on turf than grass:

https://www.uhhospitals.org/for-clinicians/articles-and-news/articles/2019/08/artificial-turf-versus-natural-grass 

I think ideally, we would think about introducing the ability to swap grass in and out of the stadium when we build a new one like @HopHead mentioned above.  Seems like the best of both worlds.

[kermit]

6 hours ago, atlrvr said:

Step 1 - Make team so uncompetitive that fans stop coming/watching
Step 2 - Antagonize taxpayers
Step 3 - Announce market no longer supporting team, and relocation may be only alternative
Step 4 - NC/SC promise 6 kajillion dollars to build Platinum coated facility with artificial turf field
Alternative Step 4 - Move team to different market that only offers 5 kajillion dollars but fan base there super duper excited, so make metric F-Ton 'o cash, then sell team for most recordist highest price in future history.

Yea, maybe Tepper is just a scorekeeper, and honestly it would not entirely surprise me if he was just in the Panthers for the measurable increase in net worth. However, I gotta believe that this dude, in his late 60s, bought an NFL team because he mostly wanted the fun parts that come with that — that unavoidably means building a winner. The tanking / extorting cash strategy means all he is doing for the next decade is listen to his lawyers and watch a looser every Sunday through the entirety of his sunset years.

I gotta think he wants to have fun with this (and Rock Hill pissed him off so he is having fun being a bully).

Having said all that, he hasn’t shown that he knows anything about building a winner.

[Blue_Devil]

5 hours ago, CTiger said:

Oh no, I get it.  The same problems exist at FedEx field which has claimed the careers of many NFL players.  Poorly maintained grass is probably just as bad, and if the Panthers aren't going to be able to maintain the grass well enough to make it a safe playing surface, then maybe this is the right call.  My point is that artificial turf is just inherently riskier due to the fact that it doesn't have any give to it.  The NFLPA openly advocates for the elimination of artificial turf due to safety concerns:

https://nflpa.com/posts/only-natural-grass-can-level-the-nfls-playing-field

There is also this study that shows that 58% more injuries occur on turf than grass:

https://www.uhhospitals.org/for-clinicians/articles-and-news/articles/2019/08/artificial-turf-versus-natural-grass 

I think ideally, we would think about introducing the ability to swap grass in and out of the stadium when we build a new one like @HopHead mentioned above.  Seems like the best of both worlds.

I think Arizona can do that too right? I hope if a state of the art stadium is built we get that feature. That said if it is going to be really an urban stadium we might not have the room. 
 

Also, I never understood, if Tepper wants to build a huge entertainment district, why the panthers and FC HQs wouldn’t be the anchor tenant. Maybe get the ACC HQ in there too. Seems shortsighted. 

[Mid South NC]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/27/david-tepper-back-looking-for-right-situation-to-build-new-team-facility/amp/

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

11 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

As a Bears fan, and with what soldier field goes through and the injuries that occur, yah I am supportive of artificial turf for the panthers

You are mentioning a team in a climate, which can't grow wintertime grass. 

Charlotte has great winter grass, and with an MLS team, there is even more need to have grass. If Nashville can do it with an even worse climate, so can we. 

[InSouthPark]

6 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

You are mentioning a team in a climate, which can't grow wintertime grass. 

Charlotte has great winter grass, and with an MLS team, there is even more need to have grass. If Nashville can do it with an even worse climate, so can we. 

Read reviews of the field for the Music City bowl last year.  The crappy field conditions were the main talk.  Bermuda doesn't grow in the winter and can't repair itself post Halloween.  That is why the middle of the fields are regularly replaced and other areas painted green.   And Nashville MLS is getting their own stadium

[Blue_Devil]

55 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

Read reviews of the field for the Music City bowl last year.  The crappy field conditions were the main talk.  Bermuda doesn't grow in the winter and can't repair itself post Halloween.  That is why the middle of the fields are regularly replaced and other areas painted green.   And Nashville MLS is getting their own stadium

And on top of that, the article I posted about the Bears is from September. Winter isn’t a problem, even in Chicago, in September.

[SydneyCarton]

 

Exclusive: David Tepper’s plans for the Panthers’ future in Charlotte, stadium changes

Bank of America Stadium could be the Carolina Panthers’ home for at least another decade

UPDATED APRIL 28, 2022 11:00 AM

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by SydneyCarton