The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

The Transportation Modernization Board unanimously voted at its first meeting Monday afternoon to include choice lanes for Interstate 24 between Nashville and Murfreesboro in the next Department of Transportation improvement plan.

The Transportation Modernization Act, passed during last year’s state legislative session, formed the board for the purpose of approving the recommended TDOT-designated choice lanes — or so-called “user-fee facilities.”

However, Democrats have filed a bill to change the language of the TMA so that TDOT must get approval of the local government where proposed toll lanes would be constructed. House Bill 1612 was filed by state Rep. John Ray Clemmons (D-Nashville) and is set to be discussed for the first time in the house transportation subcommittee on Wednesday.

Board member Mike Keeney asked at the meeting what local community involvement would be with these projects. Brian Ledford, TDOT’s executive director of public private partnerships, told board members TDOT would be working with local stakeholders during the process but did not go into detail.

The choice lane projects would add new lanes to the areas recommended and would not convert existing lanes. Drivers would pay a toll to access the added lanes. In December, TDOT unveiled its 10-year plan, which noted its prioritization of the Nashville-Murfreesboro project and said the state could seek bids from private companies for the project as soon as late 2024. At the board meeting on Monday, TDOT said it could launch a procurement process in 2025 and plans to finish environmental and design work this year, along with further traffic and revenue studies for the project.

“These are new lanes. They are optional and they are designed, built, financed, operated and maintained by a private partner,” Ledford said. “As a frame of reference, TDOT’s annual budget for projects and programs is about $1.2 billion annually, and one of these urban congestion projects could easily eat up our entire budget for projects and programs.”

The TMA previously received criticism from lawmakers such as Sen. Heidi Campbell (D-Nashville) for giving private companies the opportunity when the state could potentially benefit from the “profitable endeavor” (read here).

TDOT has said other potential future locations include I-65 between Nashville and Spring Hill, as well as locations in Chattanooga and Knoxville.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/state/choice-lane-project-approved-for-i-24-between-nashville-murfreesboro/article_c0fba6b2-d4e3-11ee-9133-a778c477f7ff.html

[markhollin]

North Nashville Transit Hub update.

Looking SW from Clarksville Pike., 1/2 block east of 26th Ave. North:

Looking east from 26th Ave. North, just south of Clarksville Pike:

Looking NE from 26th Ave. North, 1/4 block south of Clarksville Pike:

[PaulChinetti]

All these new transit hubs, is all the zoning around them being up zoned for more density?

[Bos2Nash]

2 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

All these new transit hubs, is all the zoning around them being up zoned for more density?

The city's active upzoning bills are the NEST bills. The majority of large upzonings is still a piecemeal process on a project-by-project basis as far as I know. It could be wise (or maybe the exact opposite) to really help educate the community about TOD during the upcoming referendum. 

[FrankNash]

I keep reading that Amtrak is proposing a new line from Chicago to Miami with stops in Louisville and Nashville.  Is this new information?

[markhollin]

9 hours ago, FrankNash said:

I keep reading that Amtrak is proposing a new line from Chicago to Miami with stops in Louisville and Nashville.  Is this new information?

There have been variations of this story/rumor over the past several years. 

[andywildman]

The Federal Railroad Administration released a study last month with several long-distance routes that Amtrak is looking at restoring to service.

This is in addition to the short-haul routes that have been announced, studying Nashville to Memphis and Nashville to Atlanta via Chattanooga.

Major routes through Nashville include Chicago-to-Miami (restoring the Floridian train service) and Detroit-to-New-Orleans, an extension of the Humming Bird route that ran from Cincinnati to New Orleans.

[markhollin]

The Nashville Area Chamber of Commerce is gearing up to support Mayor Freddie O'Connell's November transit referendum.

President and CEO Ralph Schulz told a crowd of businesspeople Wednesday that the November vote will be a "crucial moment in our regional history." He described a domino effect: Job creation fuels prosperity but relies on available talent, which is scarce. A region's livability is a main factor in attracting a workforce, and transit and connectivity is key to livability, he said.

"If (the referendum is) successful, it's going to deliver the resources to be able to begin to resolve those transportation issues and create the connectivity that you need for your workforce, for your customers and for yourselves as well," Schulz said at a Wednesday morning event for the organization's Partnership 2030 program.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2024/03/06/nashville-chamber-urges-businesses-to-support-crucial-transit-vote/72866033007/

[nashvylle]

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pithinthewind/technical-advisory-transit-maps/article_3ed02518-dbf6-11ee-8c2d-67509091115a.html#tncms-source=infinity-scroll-summary-sticky-siderail-next

Looks like mass transit plan will have BRT with dedicated lanes. 

"Four new dedicated bus rapid transit lines on Dickerson Pike, Nolensville Pike, Gallatin Avenue and Murfreesboro Pike. The Gallatin artery would run through Madison to the edge of Davidson County. Planned transit on Murfreesboro Pike includes extensions to the airport and down Bell Road." 

Honestly I think the Mayor's office is correctly approaching this plan and praying it succeeds. BRT is ~$50MM per mile (includes stations, sidewalks, crossings, etc.), while LRT is ~$200-$500MM per mile. If we wanted to connect downtown to BNA with lightrail (9 miles), that would be $1.8BN to $4.5BN alone, plus maintenance costs... This plan would also expand existing WeGo and the entire city could be essentially connected. People will ride the BRT if it's on dedicated lanes.

If trackless tram buses ever come to America, as @PillowTalk4 shared previously, this transit would do very well on dedicated lanes here.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/trackless-trams-help-revitalize-suburbs/?utm_campaign=social_video_2023&utm_content=27383_China_trackless_trams&utm_medium=social_video&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=1_1

Simply covering up the wheels on a bus does wonders for the look and feel of the bus, which honestly is needed for people to ride the bus in Nashville (for various reasons). 

 

 

Edited March 7 by nashvylle

[Luvemtall]

It would definitely be a big step forward in the right direction. Although a LRT to BNA line would be nice to have, with the way people seem to perceive transit here, it’s probably best to make these cost effective alternatives first . 

[markhollin]

Nashville's 'last best chance' for transit progress under Mayor O'Connell:

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/billfreeman/from-bill-freeman/article_24db97be-d4fd-11ee-b4fd-2baf98f0ae01.html

[nashville born]

Wasn't sure where to put this.  Thought many here would appreciate the content.

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/georgia-tech-midtown-design-idea-renderings-study-world-class?utm_source=Urbanize+Newsletter&utm_campaign=21c4217238-news-atlanta-daily-2024-03-07&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f2c8779a36-21c4217238-199748044

[Luvemtall]

44 minutes ago, nashville born said:

Wasn't sure where to put this.  Thought many here would appreciate the content.

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/georgia-tech-midtown-design-idea-renderings-study-world-class?utm_source=Urbanize+Newsletter&utm_campaign=21c4217238-news-atlanta-daily-2024-03-07&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f2c8779a36-21c4217238-199748044

This is what I’ve been waiting to see, people who actually can see outside the box, to have vision past the ordinary “this is how it’s always been done” mentality. Their multi- modal vision for Peachtree is a great example of how we can have a cohesive system of options to move people efficiently, without having upteen lanes of automobile asphalt. This is the way for our leaders here in Nashville to be thinking, how the new East Bank Blvd should be transpiring and how our major pikes are transformed. Forward vision and a comprehensive plan to make our city function for all its residents.

[markhollin]

The plan presented at the meeting by Metro Transportation Planning Director Michael Briggs includes a wide scope of projects that will be paired down to match revenue projections.

Plans presented at the meeting include:

• Four bus-rapid transit lines spanning 38 miles: Murfreesboro Pike (with a connector to the airport), Gallatin Pike, Nolensville Pike and Dickerson Pike
• Three priority corridors: Clarksville Pike, James Robertson Parkway and West End (West End could be upgraded to bus-rapid transit)
• Sidewalks around transit centers and stops
• Interconnected signals on Nashville corridors
• Fourteen transit centers
• 24/7 service on 14 routes
• New services on eight routes and service improvements on 12 routes
• Bus stop improvements
• Intersection improvements

The distinction between bus-rapid transit and priority corridors remains unclear. Priority corridors will have "high-level station amenities" and "are essentially [bus-rapid transit]," Justin Cole, livability planner at Nashville Department of Transportation, said at the meeting, speaking specifically about routes through downtown.

Metro estimates bus-rapid transit will cost from $38 million to $48 million per mile. In contrast, light rail is estimated to cost between $200 million and $500 million.

Briggs also highlighted key dates moving forward.

• March 29: Determine financial plan for audit
• May 31: Financial certification from state comptroller
• June 7: Ordinance filed with Metro Council
• Aug. 6: Metro Council’s final reading on the ordinance
• Aug. 22: Transportation improvement program submitted to Election Commission
• Oct. 16: Early voting begins
• Nov. 5: Election day
  
  More at NBJ here:
  
  https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/03/08/nashville-transit-referendum-freddie-oconnell.html

[PaulChinetti]

Bus stop improvements is a huge one and seemingly low hanging fruit. No structure, stops on the opposite side of the street from neighborhoods,  no crosswalk within miles of the stop, no sidewalks by stops. 

 

[Bos2Nash]

 

On 3/8/2024 at 4:02 PM, markhollin said:

The plan presented at the meeting by Metro Transportation Planning Director Michael Briggs includes a wide scope of projects that will be paired down to match revenue projections.

Plans presented at the meeting include:

• Four bus-rapid transit lines spanning 38 miles: Murfreesboro Pike (with a connector to the airport), Gallatin Pike, Nolensville Pike and Dickerson Pike
• Three priority corridors: Clarksville Pike, James Robertson Parkway and West End (West End could be upgraded to bus-rapid transit)
• Sidewalks around transit centers and stops
• Interconnected signals on Nashville corridors
• Fourteen transit centers
• 24/7 service on 14 routes
• New services on eight routes and service improvements on 12 routes
• Bus stop improvements
• Intersection improvements

The distinction between bus-rapid transit and priority corridors remains unclear. Priority corridors will have "high-level station amenities" and "are essentially [bus-rapid transit]," Justin Cole, livability planner at Nashville Department of Transportation, said at the meeting, speaking specifically about routes through downtown.

Metro estimates bus-rapid transit will cost from $38 million to $48 million per mile. In contrast, light rail is estimated to cost between $200 million and $500 million.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/03/08/nashville-transit-referendum-freddie-oconnell.html

I would think "priority corridor" is what WeGo is currently calling BRT. Looking at Gallatin Pike currently with bigger shelters/benches, digital display for bus timing, etc. 

On 3/8/2024 at 4:12 PM, PaulChinetti said:

Bus stop improvements is a huge one and seemingly low hanging fruit. No structure, stops on the opposite side of the street from neighborhoods,  no crosswalk within miles of the stop, no sidewalks by stops. 

Agreed. Not that they really care about my opinion, but if I had to rank the priority of these items I would do as follows.

Immediate Need:

• Two bus-rapid transit lines: Murfreesboro Pike (with a connector to the airport), Gallatin Pike - BNA would help with cost of the BRT connection, I would be very interested in the logistics of the airport spur and how it connects into the overall BRT line.
• Priority corridors: James Robertson Parkway and West End (West End could be upgraded to bus-rapid transit)
• Interconnected signals on Nashville corridors - These should also be coordinated with emergency services (Emergency Vehicle Preemption?)
• Sidewalks around transit centers and stops
• Bus stop improvements
• Intersection improvements

Italic portions should really be done together IMO, because one without the other doesn't really make sense.

Next Steps (laid out with timeline)

• Two bus-rapid transit lines: Nolensville Pike and Dickerson Pike
  • The referendum should put the ROW in place now so that the eventual expansion does not get dragged out.
• Priority corridors: Clarksville Pike
• Fourteen transit centers
• 4/7 service on 14 routes
  • I think 24/7 service would be great, but may be a hard sell from the outset. I would think they could scale up 24/7 service starting with the BRT lines and then expanding out.
• New services on eight routes and service improvements on 12 routes
  • New crosstown services will be imperative (like the 71 route along W Trinity Lane) to make the system more usable. I think the referendum should indicate where these crosstown routes should be and have rollout plans for each one with some coming online immediately and some on a phased timeline

[BnaBreaker]

I'm hoping this BRT will come not just with dedicated lanes, but lanes that actually have a physical barrier between the BRT lanes and car lanes, because in Nashville you know people would use those lanes if they could get away with it.  

[markhollin]

Mayor Freddie O'Connell's vision for expanded mass transit in Nashville is poised to rely on a single tax increase — one that is by far the biggest source of revenue on the menu.

A conceptual framework made public March 6 proposes raising Davidson County's sales tax rate by half a percentage point, elevating it to 9.75%.

A total price tag for the transit plan, which is still taking shape, has not been disclosed. At current activity levels, that extra half-percent would raise more than $160 million a year. That money would enable the city to borrow a much larger amount to finance the expansion.

Sales taxes would fund an estimated 70% of the expansion plan's capital and operating costs, according to projections shared at the March 6 meeting. The other 30% would come from federal funds, potential state money and fares paid by transit users.

"You cannot compete for and bring down federal dollars from the bipartisan infrastructure [law] without a local match," Vandegrift said. "The time is now to put forward local dollars. The bipartisan infrastructure law, it expires in 2026. You really only have a few more years … to compete for and bring hundreds of millions of dollars of federal support into Nashville."

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/03/11/transit-expansion-referendum-plan-mayor-metro.html

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 3/8/2024 at 4:12 PM, PaulChinetti said:

Bus stop improvements is a huge one and seemingly low hanging fruit. No structure, stops on the opposite side of the street from neighborhoods,  no crosswalk within miles of the stop, no sidewalks by stops. 

 

Bus stop consolidation and improvements to accessibility and amenities can have a huge impact on service levels (e.g., faster service because a bus isn't stopping every 100 feet) and rideability (e.g., you're not standing on an unpaved roadside when it's pouring, getting splashed by cars going 75 mph), with minimal capital investment.  It's a no-brainer.

[markhollin]

The Tennessee Department of Transportation has announced that beginning Friday, March 15 at 8 p.m., they will be permanently closing Exit 216C on Interstate 40 East to State Route 255 North/Donelson Pike. The permanent closure is part of an ongoing project in Donelson to construct a new I-40 interchange and re-align Donelson Pike.

According to TDOT, all Donelson Pike traffic will continue onto Exit 216B. Once the closure is in place, drivers will take Exit 216B and use a stoplight to travel north toward Donelson or south toward the Nashville International Airport. Exit 216A will remain open.

Additionally, multiple alternating lane closures will take place on I-40 during Friday night into Saturday morning while Superior Construction Company shifts the barrier wall.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2024/03/12/nashville-traffic-i-40-exit-to-donelson-pike-to-permanently-close/72942178007/
 

[Bos2Nash]

Apologies up front about this long-winded post/thought process.

On 3/12/2024 at 10:06 AM, markhollin said:

Mayor Freddie O'Connell's vision for expanded mass transit in Nashville is poised to rely on a single tax increase — one that is by far the biggest source of revenue on the menu.

A conceptual framework made public March 6 proposes raising Davidson County's sales tax rate by half a percentage point, elevating it to 9.75%.

A total price tag for the transit plan, which is still taking shape, has not been disclosed. At current activity levels, that extra half-percent would raise more than $160 million a year. That money would enable the city to borrow a much larger amount to finance the expansion.

Sales taxes would fund an estimated 70% of the expansion plan's capital and operating costs, according to projections shared at the March 6 meeting. The other 30% would come from federal funds, potential state money and fares paid by transit users.

"You cannot compete for and bring down federal dollars from the bipartisan infrastructure [law] without a local match," Vandegrift said. "The time is now to put forward local dollars. The bipartisan infrastructure law, it expires in 2026. You really only have a few more years … to compete for and bring hundreds of millions of dollars of federal support into Nashville."

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2024/03/11/transit-expansion-referendum-plan-mayor-metro.html

While I understand that the sales tax is an continuous revenue stream and makes logical sense. I do question (lightly) the use of it for a couple reasons. 1. From a social perspective, those who are most likely to use transit out of necessity are also those who would be impacted the most by a sales tax increase. I thought we had several options on funding that would impact those most vulnerable less (thoughts below from last month). Granted the bus is still cheaper than owning a car, but if folks are already using the bus out of necessity it is probably because they don't own a car already and will need to pay more for everyday items, while still riding the bus. The target audience would be the folks willing to get out of their cars and ride the bus. Those folks go from the high costs of a car to the lower (but slightly unknown) cost associated to riding the bus, while also paying more for their everyday purchases. This is still a change and while it is not a built change, NIMBY-ism exists against this kind of change. The PR plan for this referendum needs to highlight the actual costs - more so than just car vs transit.

On 2/9/2024 at 6:38 PM, Bos2Nash said:

Thanks!

Here are my thoughts on which taxes should go toward dedicated transit funding.

• Rental Tax and/or Surcharge is looking at tourists and companies who are continually renting cars. Of course we could also cut off our nose if we were to get a solid enough transit system this funding could get smaller as we improve the system more and more.
• Alcohol Tax - This could be a perfect time to re-raise the conversation about the Special Tax District for the Convention Center. I believe Mayor Cooper asked about re-addressing the catchment for the convention center while he was still an at-large council member. If we could capture some of the alcohol tax that comes specifically out of Lower Broadway (but also from the county as a whole), that funding could go a long way and probably isn't going anywhere any time soon.
• Ride Hailing Tax is pretty self explanatory. If we have a transit system within our city, the system that is pulling folks off that system should essentially help pay for it. I do wonder if the "Contracted Vehicle" would also fall within this domain so the ride hailing apps cant claim discrimination against them.
• Local Parking Tax is also pretty self explanatory. Folks on this board continually preach that a city needs to provide parking. Well fine, let's have some parking, but we are going to put a tax on that parking and gain more than just property tax (very low property tax for that matter). I would expect two things to happen with this. We will see parking rates climb to accommodate the tax rate. The long run expectation (and possibly naïve one) would be that folks stop paying those rates and property owners see the value in re-developing the property to generate more revenue. 

I'm not as much of a fan of going after the sales, property, wheel taxes specifically because that targets everyone and the largest impact would be felt by the lower income folks who are still having to pay those everyday. Eventually, when the system is wide reaching enough, a Wheel Tax could be looked at because those lower incomes homes have much better access to transit, but right now I believe that hurts more folks than it helps.

The Hotel tax is an interesting one because it just went up for the Multi-Purpose Arena being built on the East Bank. I believe another user posted about how with that tax increase we would be approaching a very high tax rate on hotels. I could be mis-remembering that though.

I obviously don't have the numbers on each of those five or six taxes, but I would think with those dedicated funds with annual supplemental contributions from the annual budget we could find several hundred million to push our transit system forwads.

2. I think this transit conversation absolutely warrants another conversation with the Convention Center and their Tourism Development Zone, also known as the "Nashville Convention Center Authority (DBA Music City Center)". Can the TDZ be reworked (I know a heavy lift by council and most likely the state) to at least allow some of the local sales tax to go to transit? This article helps illustrate the TDZ and as of 2019 shows that the local tax monies equaled approximately $34.9 million in local sales tax. The CCA has paid for the 5th and Broadway parking garage ($34.5 million) and the property for a Transit hub on Lafayette ($14.8 million), but supposedly that money has come from other revenue streams. If we cannot modify the TDZ I would think we would want to ask the Convention Center Authority to help with transit funding. If I remember correctly though, part of the state legislation last year limited what the Convention Center could spend money on outside the actual convention center.

This is the Tourism Development Zone for the convention center that was shared by Mayor Cooper back in 2019. I believe this was the original proposed TDZ by Mayor Dean, but was cut down by the State Building Commission in 2009.

If you google "BWSC Tourism Development Zone" though you can find a PDF on the Metro website that outlines it slightly differently. This puts the future East Bank development into the convention center coffers?

So I guess the question is ultimately this.... I think getting funding for Transit can easily default to sales tax collection, because that is honestly the easiest lift at this time. But are we being short sighted on the funding side by just going after sales tax? Additionally, we are advocating for transit in an effort to make Nashville more affordable, yet we are adding to the tax burden on everyday purchases (albeit not a 1-to-1 cost change), how does that play out with everyday folks?

A second long-range question is this.... By increasing the sales tax by 0.5% for transit, are we dedicating that percentage to transit indefinitely? I ask in the instance that the sales tax get cut down the road. If the sales tax is reduced, will transit maintain that 0.5% in perpetuity? With the ebb-and-flow of politics, I would think we would be alot safer committing that kind of language to transit funding.

______________

Also an FYI,  the Downtown District is already paying 0.5% fee on top of the 9.25% sales tax (so 9.75% total), I would presume that the downtown district would now see a total sales tax of 10.25%. Could anybody with more legal clarity help clarify that?

This is the presumed outline of the extra 0.5% is charged per this state PDF.

[markhollin]

A new Tennessee House bill would insulate party vehicle owners from local regulators seeking to slash the number of permitted vehicles on city streets.

Rep. Dan Howell, R-Cleveland, is backing the legislation, filing an amendment this week to HB 2642, which was originally filed as a caption bill by House Majority Leader William Lamberth, R-Portland.

Should the bill ultimately pass, local governments would be barred from refusing to renew previously issued entertainment vehicle permits, unless the permits went unused for six months. Permits could only be revoked after an administrative hearing showing violations of state or local rules.

The amendment is a highly diluted alternative to an earlier amendment proposed by Lamberth, which would have blocked local oversight of party vehicles and shifted regulation authority to the Tennessee Department of Transportation. If Lamberth's version had moved forward, it would have unraveled newly minted party vehicle regulations in Nashville, including restricted routes, permit requirements and disciplinary processes.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2024/03/14/tennessee-bill-would-offer-protections-to-party-vehicle-owners/72857374007/

[BnaBreaker]

26 minutes ago, markhollin said:

A new Tennessee House bill would insulate party vehicle owners from local regulators seeking to slash the number of permitted vehicles on city streets.

Rep. Dan Howell, R-Cleveland, is backing the legislation, filing an amendment this week to HB 2642, which was originally filed as a caption bill by House Majority Leader William Lamberth, R-Portland.

Should the bill ultimately pass, local governments would be barred from refusing to renew previously issued entertainment vehicle permits, unless the permits went unused for six months. Permits could only be revoked after an administrative hearing showing violations of state or local rules.

The amendment is a highly diluted alternative to an earlier amendment proposed by Lamberth, which would have blocked local oversight of party vehicles and shifted regulation authority to the Tennessee Department of Transportation. If Lamberth's version had moved forward, it would have unraveled newly minted party vehicle regulations in Nashville, including restricted routes, permit requirements and disciplinary processes.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2024/03/14/tennessee-bill-would-offer-protections-to-party-vehicle-owners/72857374007/

This is another bill that doesn't mention Nashville by name but is obviously targeting Nashville.  Why do these guys from Cleveland and Portland care what Nashville does with regard to party vehicles? 

[BnaBreaker]

President Biden Announces Over $3 Billion to Reconnect Communities That Have Been Left Behind and Divided by Transportation Infrastructure

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/13/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-over-3-billion-to-reconnect-communities-that-have-been-left-behind-and-divided-by-transportation-infrastructure/

Hopefully this isn't taken by some as a political post just because it has to do with the federal government, but yesterday President Biden announced $3.3 billion in funding going specifically to repair and reconnect neighborhoods in urban areas around the country that over the years have been damaged by various transportation projects (often interstate highways.)  Although several specific projects are listed in the briefing above, such as $158 million going to Atlanta to cap a 14 acre section of the I-75 downtown connector, Nashville isn't named specifically itself.  However, I don't think this was meant to be a comprehensive list of projects being funded, and it got me wondering if perhaps Nashville could benefit and get some funding for it's proposed interstate capping projects?  I don't know... something to watch, perhaps!?

Edited March 14 by BnaBreaker

[PaulChinetti]

Oh this would be amazing. 

Would 440 fall under this umbrella?