The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[andywildman]

5 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If this is phase one let's say, what would you all think phase two would be of the transit plan? (OR) What would you want Phase two to look like or be?

I think this is a start for transit, but it is not a catch all or a full plan for Nashville. It touches on some areas of Nashville but not others.

So, what do you think or want?????

Real transit alternatives for the 47,000 daily commuters from Rutherford to Davidson and the 41,000 daily commuters from Williamson to Davidson. Commuter rail is a tough sell because those counties are so sprawled; park and rides would be a must in the burbs, but real commuter rail on CSX tracks to Franklin and Murfreesboro would go a long way.

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

Dropped the kiddos off at the in-laws today and driving back. Something that would help traffic A LOT is lights that are more reactive to traffic. I sat at multiple lights where the main road was backed up because the lights where cycling like there was actual cross traffic. 

Shorten those timings during rush hour or use cameras or in ground sensors. SOMETHING!

This is actually supposed to be part of the referendum plan. Upgrading almost 600 signals to tie into a mobility hub. 

The analogy that I have been using is when you are sitting on KVB at rush hour, many time you will see a single cop standing at a single box controlling just that signal. Now imagine the ENTIRE stretch of KVB being controlled by a single person/computer to do exactly this. 

The current problem is our current signal infrastructure cannot be upgraded to do this. The parts and pieces are just too old to handle this kind of technology and need to be replaced.

[PaulChinetti]

Excellent. I know it's been talked about for years. Hopefully it gets done this time.

[smeagolsfree]

Unfortunately, there is nothing that Davidson can do about commuter ship between counties for the most part. That will fall to the state and the RTA to solve. Davidson taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for out-of-town commuter problems. 

[PaulChinetti]

18 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Unfortunately, there is nothing that Davidson can do about commuter ship between counties for the most part. That will fall to the state and the RTA to solve. Davidson taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for out-of-town commuter problems. 

We end up footing the bill with time spent in traffic. 

The state will have to remove its head from its posterior before we get any statewide thing going. 

I wonder if a coalition could be created with Davidson and surrounding counties that actually has any weight behind it?

[Luvemtall]

19 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Unfortunately, there is nothing that Davidson can do about commuter ship between counties for the most part. That will fall to the state and the RTA to solve. Davidson taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for out-of-town commuter problems. 

Isn’t there a regional advisory board already in place? 100% agree that the cost shouldn’t fall solely upon the taxpayers of just Davidson, but on the lines of Paul’s comments above everyone in Davidson IS paying for it. The infrastructure isn’t supporting only those that live inside city limits, it’s supporting all those that need to commute there daily. Just makes sense to include the whole MSA because the whole Is responsible for the need. Just in case some have missed it, Nashville is now a major city and most major cities have some sort of regional transit. Andywildman’s post above mentions 48,000 commuters just from Rutherford and Williamson, not even counting those from Wilson, Sumner, Maury, etc. there’s probably 100,000 plus daily commuters all descending into Nashville and using its infrastructure, surely it would benefit everyone to try to eliminate as many of those vehicles as possible instead of building more ribbons of asphalt to try to accommodate them. The cost will be there regardless of what way is chosen to address it, highways aren’t cheap either.

[Bos2Nash]

Obviously a regional (if not State) solution will ultimately be needed. Multiple folks have told me though that with raising the sales tax for the transit referendum we are essentially matching the surrounding counties sales tax at 9.75%. This begs the question of how would other counties even begin to fathom funding transit if they have already maxed out their allowable rate of sales tax? It isn't like the surrounding counties have the revenue from other streams that Nashville has available to them. 

[Luvemtall]

The State will need to stop spending millions on unnecessary useless 5 lane highways in the middle of nowhere to appease a political pet peeve, and start issuing bonds instead of this stupid pay as you go approach to start. If you never been to some of these counties with these nice highways im talking about, there’s nothing that’s going to help them get new business to come in, wasting money on new roads isn’t going to help, the State needs to invest where it’s needed regardless of political favorships . A transit tax might need to be imposed, just like a wheel tax is to automobiles, plus the ridership fees should offset some of the cost. 

[MLBrumby]

1 hour ago, Luvemtall said:

The State will need to stop spending millions on unnecessary useless 5 lane highways in the middle of nowhere to appease a political pet peeve, and start issuing bonds instead of this stupid pay as you go approach to start. If you never been to some of these counties with these nice highways im talking about, there’s nothing that’s going to help them get new business to come in, wasting money on new roads isn’t going to help, the State needs to invest where it’s needed regardless of political favorships . A transit tax might need to be imposed, just like a wheel tax is to automobiles, plus the ridership fees should offset some of the cost. 

Check out the 5-lane through Stewart County to nowhere! It's a jaw-dropper, likely at the expense of widening I-24 into my city on the west side... because they don't believe in debt (such bassackward "thinking")...  Awesome Job TDOT! 

[smeagolsfree]

I just posted this in the Airport thread unknown to what is being posted here but it is pretty much the same thing.

"The traffic in and out of BNA's interior is a nightmare and will not be addressed according to any plan I know of. The traffic into the airport is trying to be addressed but I do not think any of the plans they have in place will do anything to help with the traffic. It is poor planning on TDOT's part. Sorry Pete but the lack of planning on the part of TDOT on many levels of the state traffic plan in many areas of the state just suck. It is probably due to funding by the zealots in the state house. It goes right back to the loop around downtown. That has not changed in virtually 40 years, but the traffic sure has, and the state has done nothing! The diverging diamond will help the traffic flow somewhat easier, but it will not stop the backup in the airport. That was a design flaw in the traffic pattern of BNA itself. Not enough lanes to handle the traffic that is now BNA. At some point the states pay as you go policy is going to have to end as far as road projects. It is not sustainable as the state continues to grow. They will continue fall further and further behind.

But there will be more roads to the fishing holes in the counties where there are no hospitals hoping industry comes as those counties continue to lose population and the students drop out of high school and leave the county like rats from a sinking ship."

[Luvemtall]

100% agree, and I to want to apologize to Pete for all these rants on TDOT. I really don’t believe it falls totally on anyone in that organization. It’s more the folks up on Capital Hill plain and simple, most of them coming from these backwoods counties that don’t care about the states cities. Their constituents don’t want growth and we all know their views on Nashville and Memphis and I suppose Chatty, Knoxville, and Clarksville are not their favorites either. 

[smeagolsfree]

It really does not look like the SMART corridor is working. Traffic volume is up 6%. If they add choice lanes how much difference is it going to make if everyone decides to pay to use it. The state will find out very quickly that adding lanes is not the solution to the problem. Taking lanes away and adding mass transit is the solution. If the HOV were converted to LRT or even BRT and folks so that zipping along then folks would drop their cars and hit the train or bus. Once you get into the mess that is the I-24/40 merge those HOV lanes could be converted to flyovers into town. This is not brain surgery and if it were just BRT it would be such an easy fix.

You run those buses every ten minutes during rush from the Boro, Smyrna, Lavergne not as stops but as express lines.

Putting a break on traffic nightmares | Watch (msn.com)

[Luvemtall]

Wow!! Thanks Smeags ! This is exactly what I’ve been trying to preach on these pages for a long time. I’m so excited that you feel this way also. That seems the problem, it’s such a no brainer simple solution but yet the powers that be just can’t get it, or IMO DON’T want to!

[Bos2Nash]

While I see the logic in converting highway lanes to transit lanes, I don't see the feasibility in them. The biggest thing that makes transit convenient/useable is if it running through our populations centers. Interstates are inherently NOT in our population centers. If anything, the idea would be to remove lanes on roads like Nolensville/Murfreesboro/Lebanon/Gallatin/etc to run transit through our population centers and have the interstates remain as the car priority corridors (with no further expansion). Sure, we can run express buses on the interstates, but dedicated transit lanes on the interstates is kinda like putting lipstick on a pig (to me). The only highway that I think really works to convert lanes would be for Ellington Parkway because that goes right up the center of East Nashville.

I also don't see these types of bus routes being realistic on 10 headways. I would say it is more likely to have 30 minute headways on interstate bound express buses and you run four to six buses on the route to keep it continually flowing. To assist at peak times, maybe the express route splits into two routes during rush hour but then consolidates during non-peak times. I'd have to look at a map to see what would work routing wise, but my first thought would be Vandy and the Capital could be the two primary points.

In reality, it really comes down to prioritizing where we are spending our VERY limited transit funds. Interstate transit lanes should not be the priority use of those funds, IMHO. At least in this first phase of transit spending.

A radical, 100-year plan could be to convert Briley Parkway into an S-Bahn type loop that runs continuously around the city. 

[Luvemtall]

First, we are not suggesting that we don’t need  those prioritity routes through the population centers, that’s a completely different thing and something to be addressed within the Metro Transit Authority. If you live within Metro you’re likely not to fully understand the very real need to find a solution for the volumes of commuter and flow through traffic that extends down I-24, and in the near future you will need to add I-40 to the East into that equation. Instead of spending billions of dollars on adding more lanes in order to add more one person commuter cars ( which in this state will be another 40 years) the time is now to find viable alternative solutions that make both economic and environmental sense. 

And of course the Interstate Highway corridor isn’t a Metro responsibly, it’s a State and Federal Responsibly 

[smeagolsfree]

14 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

While I see the logic in converting highway lanes to transit lanes, I don't see the feasibility in them. The biggest thing that makes transit convenient/useable is if it running through our populations centers. Interstates are inherently NOT in our population centers. If anything, the idea would be to remove lanes on roads like Nolensville/Murfreesboro/Lebanon/Gallatin/etc to run transit through our population centers and have the interstates remain as the car priority corridors (with no further expansion). Sure, we can run express buses on the interstates, but dedicated transit lanes on the interstates is kinda like putting lipstick on a pig (to me). The only highway that I think really works to convert lanes would be for Ellington Parkway because that goes right up the center of East Nashville.

I also don't see these types of bus routes being realistic on 10 headways. I would say it is more likely to have 30 minute headways on interstate bound express buses and you run four to six buses on the route to keep it continually flowing. To assist at peak times, maybe the express route splits into two routes during rush hour but then consolidates during non-peak times. I'd have to look at a map to see what would work routing wise, but my first thought would be Vandy and the Capital could be the two primary points.

In reality, it really comes down to prioritizing where we are spending our VERY limited transit funds. Interstate transit lanes should not be the priority use of those funds, IMHO. At least in this first phase of transit spending.

A radical, 100-year plan could be to convert Briley Parkway into an S-Bahn type loop that runs continuously around the city. 

It is a matter of a cheaper alternative to mass transit into the city center. What better way than to take lanes away from drivers than to convert those lanes to transit. We have been round and round with this Craig and more lanes is not the way to go. Less car lanes are the way to go. The more lanes you build the more traffic you create.  If you build it, they will come and fill the lanes. You can only funnel so much crap into a bottle neck and that is exactly what we are doing. 

Very little commuting done as most of the driver are single vehicle drivers coming in from the outlying areas with no incentive to change. I say turn two of four lanes into toll lanes and see how they like it not to mention the new one they are building. There has to be consequences for their habits of clogging the interstates. You will say oh you are an out of county driver? Yep, but I can come into town on the back roads, and I only live one mile outside of Davidson.

In 100 years if we are still here, cars will no longer be around. There will be personal flying modes of transit if we make it that far.

[Bos2Nash]

Again, logic vs realty. I'm confused how my statement is being construed into saying I want to add traffic lanes. I actually think I said focus lane removal elsewhere, not actually adding more lanes. As someone who has commuted via Express Bus, Commuter Rail, Heavy Rail, Light Rail, and Local Bus, I like to think I have a pretty solid idea of how all those modes operate and their day-to-day functionality even if I have now chosen to live within Metro. 

If we are talking a more regional system - like in a phase 2/3 - maybe we can look more at the commuters coming from those surrounding counties. Express buses are definitely an option, but express buses don't always mean dedicated lane. Express typically means you have limited stops within its designated area. You look at our current express bus line to Murfreesboro, and it is exactly that. Very limited stops, utilizes the interstate and provides the alternative. It isn't used because it sits in traffic because we don't have an alternative mode to move people around. Just because there is an interstate there, doesn't mean that is the only corridor to move people. 

The 84 also has decent headways for a limited used service (I'll let someone else find the exact figures). Headways that commuters use to plan their day.

Headways can certainly be improved on this route to every half hour. But I just don't think dedicating a lane on the interstate for this route is very realistic. The political lift alone probably couldn't even be done in places like California. I know it hasn't been done in the MBTA/RIPTA (MA/RI) network.

To me, trying to change the incentives/priorities of people who are utilizing the state/federally funded/regulated interstates is a lost cause. What I am saying is leave the interstates alone (and DON'T expand them - just so we are clear), and focus on routes that run through the population centers. The interstates are car priority central, and changing that would take a gift from a messiah of sorts. Looking at the map below you can see a number of routes to the south that could allow for a real, regional network to grow out of. Leave the existing single occupant vehicle priority alone and create transit priority where transit will actually succeed. If we want to include some express routes like the 84 that run up the car prioritized interstates, cool, but that doesn't mean we need to spend money on dedication on those roads. Dedication also includes enforcement which is something we all love to complain about - because it never happens!

 

You are never going to get proper TOD progress if you focus on the interstates either. TOD is for where population centers will survive. We all know what survives along the interstates....

Not really a place to live. Actually in that specific example I don't think you can really see a single residential unit. And this is where our express bus 84 route gets on the highway. The last Murfreesboro "park and ride" is just out of the photo on the right and this is what it looks like...

So tell me again why we should focus on putting transit on the interstates?

[Luvemtall]

20 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

You look at our current express bus line to Murfreesboro, and it is exactly that. Very limited stops, utilizes the interstate and provides the alternative. It isn't used because it sits in traffic because we don't have an alternative mode to move people around. Just because there is an interstate there, doesn't mean that is the only corridor to move people. 

Exactly that, it sits in traffic because there’s no dedicated lane. Point we are trying to make, have dedicated lanes for BRT. And you enforce it by constructing Jersey barriers and barrier arms accessible only by authorized vehicles. TOD’s are definitely the way to go along the pikes and arterial roads and public transportation is essential to that goal, but the need for express transportation to the feeder counties is also a major concern. And I will add for the 100th time, a true interstate bypass NEEDS to be completed to encompass the entire Metro ( I-840) Truckers and travelers will not take a route that includes passing through towns with traffic lights ( routes like 109, 100, 155,41A etc) plus the added benefit is all the economic growth that can come to the places that interstate goes. It’s not a one solution fix, it needs to be a cohesive system that allows for both sensible growth and rapid transit for commuters.

[downtownresident]

Honestly choice lanes could help solve the issue of transit vehicles being stuck in traffic - just allow busses to access them as part of the Public/Private partnership. We have choice lanes here in Dallas and they constantly move(even if not at the 75 MPH limit at all times) no matter the traffic conditions on the other lanes. It may not make sense to dedicate transit only lanes for the full length of the corridor, but would make sense to grant transit vehicles access to the toll lanes. 

[Bos2Nash]

27 minutes ago, downtownresident said:

Honestly choice lanes could help solve the issue of transit vehicles being stuck in traffic - just allow busses to access them as part of the Public/Private partnership. We have choice lanes here in Dallas and they constantly move(even if not at the 75 MPH limit at all times) no matter the traffic conditions on the other lanes. It may not make sense to dedicate transit only lanes for the full length of the corridor, but would make sense to grant transit vehicles access to the toll lanes. 

WeGo will have access to the Choice Lanes as far as we know.

[smeagolsfree]

The state is adding the lanes but not you specifically. I have always advocated for taking lanes away and adding some type of commuter system on the existing roads. You have to disincentivize the use of cars into the Metro especially during rush hour and commuter times. 

[KJHburg]

13 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

 

Very little commuting done as most of the driver are single vehicle drivers coming in from the outlying areas with no incentive to change. I say turn two of four lanes into toll lanes and see how they like it not to mention the new one they are building. There has to be consequences for their habits of clogging the interstates. You will say oh you are an out of county driver? Yep, but I can come into town on the back roads, and I only live one mile outside of Davidson.

In 100 years if we are still here, cars will no longer be around. There will be personal flying modes of transit if we make it that far.

With interstate highways you can not convert existing lanes into toll lanes.  NC could not open some lanes on I-485 in Charlotte as they were going to open them as free lanes and then convert when a bigger project was done to tolled express lanes.  However, the Feds said you could not do that so the new lanes sat there for a while before the toll lanes were completed unused.    So you can add tolled lanes but only as new lanes.  

[Luvemtall]

The one big reason why we are discussing all of this in the first place, Tennessee is decades behind in infrastructure.. period. It’s now overwhelming the system and the solutions are mind boggling billions of dollars and years to complete. And I’m again saying that it’s really not TDOTs fault, it rest solely on the people in power up on Capital Hill. Because of improper spending (or lack of), political pet peeves, and the policies enacted such as the stupid pay as you go idea, not allowing certain uses of the R.O.W for transit etc. even if a grand master plan with a dream transit system were to be made, without a clearing of existing legislators and a more open minded government willing to work together and also allow bonded debt what we see is perhaps all we’re ever going to see. 

[markhollin]

A new passenger railway connecting Memphis to Atlanta is underway, taking the first significant step toward making it a reality.

On April 28, a request-for-qualification (RFQ) was submitted with the City of Chattanooga on behalf of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) Corridor Identification program for planning and scoping purposes.

The RFQ request is seeking firms to help with the initial planning and design for how a railway will best connect Atlanta to Chattanooga to Nashville to Memphis.

Ellis Smith, Chattanooga director of intergovernmental and external affairs, said this will be the first step toward bringing a high-quality firm on board to help execute the scoping phase of the project. Smith said representatives from all four cities and representatives from both Tennessee and Georgia will be involved. The RFQ bids will remain open until June 11, according to the application.

In December 2023, the FRA allocated $500,000 for analyzing a potential railway connecting Memphis, Nashville, Chattanooga and Atlanta.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/business/development/2024/05/02/amtrak-passenger-railway-tennessee-atlanta/73532202007/

Map of Amtrak's current potential route expansion in the South.  Does not include the Memphis to Nashville portion being proposed:
 

[MLBrumby]

I just don’t get the lack of a Louisville link in their plans. Makes me wonder if there’s not some grandfathered prohibition by the old L&N (now CSX), as that’s a well traveled freight route.