Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[xapostrophe]

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/plane-lands-charlotte-airport-without-landing-gear-delta-says/GKB7GO5NAFGRVLJFATDTHNCJNM/?fbclid=IwAR1qwF3li_9dHg45d3ZFdk5LG5w48iYuaphz5WeScHFVzeFrrTeyXMyrtcA

[Midwoodian]

Monday night I saw 2 homeless people sheltering at CLT.  One in the new ticketing area, and 1 in the car rental atrium.  I feel badly for these people, but I'm shocked that CLT and CMPD are allowing them to shelter at the airport.  

[CLT2014]

25 minutes ago, Midwoodian said:

Monday night I saw 2 homeless people sheltering at CLT.  One in the new ticketing area, and 1 in the car rental atrium.  I feel badly for these people, but I'm shocked that CLT and CMPD are allowing them to shelter at the airport.  

Charlotte is a tough airport for homeless people to get to so that's surprising, but this is pretty common at airports with a direct transit station such as Atlanta, Cleveland, and Chicago O'Hare. Atlanta has had waves of 100 - 300 homeless people and O'Hare has had around 650 sleep in the ticketing and baggage area. O'Hare recently did a mass clearing and they now check for your boarding pass before you are able to exit the Blue Line train station or employee ID. Those without are turned away. 

To my understanding, to avoid potential litigation issues, the police would need to fairly ask everybody if they have legitimate business at the airport versus just targeting certain people based on appearances. Lots of people set up shop at the airport to sleep overnight when their flight is delayed and don't get a hotel... so you'd have to ask all the people camping out and not just those that look homeless. O'Hare implemented that by randomly asking people sitting in the non-secure areas of the airport for a boarding pass or reason for being at the airport. Denver has taken a pretty strict approach and is immediately arresting. They have a core group of about 30 repeat visitors that spend a night in jail, get released, board the train back the airport, get arrested, et.. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by CLT2014

[TCLT]

JetBlue has declined to appeal the decision invalidating their partnership with AA and will begin the process to terminate the partnership. AA, for its part, has decided to move forward with their appeal. Not sure what, if any, effect this might have on service at CLT. I imagine JetBlue would at the very least restart CLT-JFK.

JetBlue Airways Corporation - JetBlue Issues Statement on Its Northeast Alliance with American Airlines

American Airlines statement on the Northeast Alliance - American Airlines Newsroom (aa.com)

[kermit]

Only tangentially relevant here but it caught my eye:

The RDU-Paris flight currently operated by Delta will be upgauged to a 787-9 and  flip to Air France service in October. This route has always puzzled me, I imagine its much lower yielding than the RDU London route so I would have thought AF would have better options for using a new plane (but I have also been confused about the nature of Delta’s pseudo-mini-focus-hub at RDU). While AF and Delta are partner airlines the article does not explain the rationale for the shift — can anyone here offer some expertise on this change? I am curious.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2023/07/12/rdu-nonstop-to-paris-air-france-delta.html

Edited July 12, 2023 by kermit

[CLT2014]

Delta and Air France have a JV and revenue sharing so they directly coordinate schedules across the Atlantic. My assumption around the change would be:

1.) The 787-900 has less lie flat business class seats, but more economy seats than the Delta 767-400. This shifts the route to leisure / economy focused demand over a business heavy configuration on Delta. 

2.) Air France is probably better optimized for crew scheduling having their pilot and FA domicile in Paris. The crew can fly from Paris to Raleigh, overnight, and fly back next day completing their trip. Simple and easy. Delta is currently operating a W formation with the crew and plane which is more risky for getting crew and planes out of place in irregular ops. The 767-400 departs JFK to Paris, then flies to RDU, flies back to Paris, and then back to Atlanta. Delta rotates the plane through that formation to cover Raleigh with New York and Atlanta based crew members. You also have increased expense of paying for crew members to be away from their base in both Paris and Raleigh, whereas Air France crew are only away from the base in Raleigh. 

3. Delta was recently approved for daily service between New York and Buenos Aires starting October 28, announced on the 767-400. The shift to Air France on October 30 for RDU will provide needed 767-400 airframes and JFK flight crew to operate this new Argentina route versus having the JFK based 767-400 crew supporting the RDU route in a V formation.

Edited July 12, 2023 by CLT2014

[Poo Diddy]

I've flown this route a few times to one stop into the Nordic countries.  I was unaware the plane flew the W config, and I guess that could account for why the flight is often delayed (or canceled).  I will say it's been a full house the times I've flown during/post covid.

[LKN704]

The easiest way to think about the joint ventures is that AA/BA/Iberia/Finnair, Delta/KLM/Air France/Virgin Atlantic, and United/Air Canada/Lufthansa/SWISS/Brussels/Austrian essentially all operate as one airline across the Atlantic. The name on the outside of the aircraft and the overall onboard experience may differ but at the end of the day, the revenue from tickets sold goes into the same pot. Each JV has teams that work together to plan routes and schedules.

I get the impression that the  Delta/KLM/Air France/Virgin Atlantic JV is much more of an elaborate affair than AA's or United's respective JV. Delta/KLM/Air France flip-flop routes based on operational needs much more frequently than any other JV.  I don't think AA and BA have ever "swapped" routes other than a single MIA-LHR flight last summer when AA was short on aircraft. 

This is an old tactic that Northwest and KLM used to use in the 1990s/early 2000s when they first formed their JV.  I remember KLM used to operate IAD-AMS in the Summer and NW would take over in the Winter. Delta did a similar thing a couple of years back with Chicago-Paris. AF would fly the route in the summer and DL would operate it in the winter.

Delta has also opened up flights from larger outstations (like RDU) to their European JV hubs. Pre-pandemic Delta started Indy-Paris and offered to fly Hartford-Paris if the state of CT gave financial incentives. They also expressed interest in starting BWI-AMS/CDG a couple of years ago. 

[KJHburg]

Buried in this story about guns seized at CLT is some great stats.

""Between January and June, TSA screened 5.2 million passengers, according to statistics provided by Charlotte Douglas. That compares with 4.3 million screened during the first half of 2022.

Airport executives said earlier this year that they anticipate passenger traffic this year will break the record of 50.2 million set in 2019. Summer travel — beginning with Memorial Day weekend — is on pace to surpass 2022 by 10% at CLT.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/07/13/clt-airport-gun-firearm-seizures-rise-record-pace.html?

[CLT2014]

^ Local O&D traffic definitely feels up compared to prior years.  Increasingly on flights I find myself sitting next to passengers who are actually beginning and ending their journey in Charlotte versus connecting. The baggage claim area feels busier and the American check in counters feel busier than historically. 

[videtur quam contuor]

Did this renovation enlarge the baggage and counter areas? 

[CLT2014]

34 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Did this renovation enlarge the baggage and counter areas? 

It isn't complete yet and tenants like American and Spirit are still in the old counter area. United, Southwest, et. have moved to new counters though with a good amount more depth for forming lines and allowing people to move about. Baggage areas have had some increased square footage on the west end, but carousels still need to be replaced. Baggage claim for American is still in old format. You can hear construction happening all around it though behind construction walls.

The total square footage increase in the lobby will be 175,000.

Security Checkpoint B is currently closed for the renovation so lines are rather long for standard security at peak hours. Only Checkpoint A and E are taking standard security. Checkpoint D is special assistance and employees. Checkpoint C is TSA Precheck and is still usually walk thru - 10 minutes max.

Edited July 13, 2023 by CLT2014

[Temeteron]

46 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Did this renovation enlarge the baggage and counter areas? 

I hope so! It feels so congested.  I wish they’d put high ceilings also but don’t think so

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

^ Local O&D traffic definitely feels up compared to prior years.  Increasingly on flights I find myself sitting next to passengers who are actually beginning and ending their journey in Charlotte versus connecting. The baggage claim area feels busier and the American check in counters feel busier than historically. 

the article stated 70% are transfer passengers but that means 30% are local which does seem higher percentage than in years past.  People drive from all over the Carolinas to fly out out of CLT plus our region has really grown.  

[InSouthPark]

12 hours ago, Temeteron said:

I hope so! It feels so congested.  I wish they’d put high ceilings also but don’t think so

No high ceilings but if I remember from looking at the drawings, there will be 8-9 baggage belts vs the 4 they have now.  They will go perpendicular to the direction they go now and it should cut down on the congestion.  I can honestly say, we have THE worst baggage claim area of any large airport that I have been to.  Feels like it was designed in the 70's for an airport that was 1/8 its current size...

[tozmervo]

51 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

Feels like it was designed in the 70's for an airport that was 1/8 its current size...

That's just crazy talk 

[rancenc]

New flights coming this winter to the home of the John Deere company.

https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/nonstop-flights-to-charlotte-announced-for-quad-cities-international-airport/

[eastsider]

Work near the airport and have noticed a couple Alligiant planes flying in and out the last couple of days. Digging around on FlightAware and found arrivals from AVL and SBF yesterday and a departure to SBF today. I'm not aware of anything going on in town that would require charter flights going in/out, might they be test runs for a possible switch from Concord? 

[CLT2014]

30 minutes ago, eastsider said:

Work near the airport and have noticed a couple Alligiant planes flying in and out the last couple of days. Digging around on FlightAware and found arrivals from AVL and SBF yesterday and a departure to SBF today. I'm not aware of anything going on in town that would require charter flights going in/out, might they be test runs for a possible switch from Concord? 

It was a diversion situation. 

An Asheville to Boston flight diverted to Charlotte. It looks like they considered Concord, but might have needed longer runways due to fuel load so went to CLT.

They then sent the plane down to Orlando without passengers where they have a maintenance team and flew a different plane back to Charlotte to pick up the stranded passengers and then continue the journey to Boston.

Edited July 19, 2023 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

CLT is named by its industry peers as the most efficient airport in North America.

https://www.aviationpros.com/airports/press-release/53067321/charlotte-douglas-international-airport-clt-clt-named-most-efficient-north-american-airport

[tozmervo]

On 7/27/2023 at 1:09 PM, KJHburg said:

CLT is named by its industry peers as the most efficient airport in North America.

https://www.aviationpros.com/airports/press-release/53067321/charlotte-douglas-international-airport-clt-clt-named-most-efficient-north-american-airport

Notably baggage handling isn't listed as a metric...

[LKN704]

Lol...efficient how? CLT's layout is easily the most inefficient among U.S. airports today. I've never heard of ATRS and I wouldn't say they come across as an industry leader...they use a Gmail address on their website. 

Anyways, I flew in Thursday on United. I noticed that the digital art screens on A North were both turned off (the screens were black) and I recall they were turned off in December as well. Are they broken/no longer being used? 

I also noticed that a set of moving walkways on the connector to A North appear to have been out of service for an extended period of time as there are moveable floor to ceiling wall dividers essentially dividing the connector. 

CLT is sadly using the same crappy terrazzo vendor for the Terminal Lobby project. Besides scuff marks and giant stains everywhere, there are a few large indentations near the new ticket counters that the wheels of my suitcase got caught in. I cannot believe someone would sign off on that project...

[Professor]

On 7/27/2023 at 1:09 PM, KJHburg said:

CLT is named by its industry peers as the most efficient airport in North America.

https://www.aviationpros.com/airports/press-release/53067321/charlotte-douglas-international-airport-clt-clt-named-most-efficient-north-american-airport

Great recognition. 

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Lol...efficient how? CLT's layout is easily the most inefficient among U.S. airports today. I've never heard of ATRS and I wouldn't say they come across as an industry leader...they use a Gmail address on their website. 

Most likely cost efficiency + one time ratings. CLT is operating a major hub on a shoe string budget that greatly benefits American Airlines, who is happy to keep sending more and more passengers through the airport without regards to the passenger experience or wanting to agree to a more expensive master lease agreement (they are basically operating at CLT for free compared to other airports). In addition, despite the airport layout and crowding, CLT is operating the majority of flights on time in a region with volatile summer weather with 80%+ on time ratings. Cirium's annual ranking of most on time global airports put CLT #10 (SLC was #1). 

Airports w/ similar passenger volume to CLT: Operating revenue

CLT: $350 million 

Orlando: $683 million

SEA: $800 million

SFO: $820 million

Miami: $900 million

CLT's revenues are more similar to Salt Lake City ($290 million budget), which is moving half the amount of passengers as CLT each year and half the amount of scheduled departures. 

I'd guess other airports look at CLT and are like "How the heck do they even keep the lights on with that budget?" I don't think American is going to abandon the hub at this point and the airport needs to play hardball next time to get them to pay significantly more for their lease agreement. I'm frustrated American is benefiting so much from their operations in CLT while barely wanting to budge on funding more improvements, but I understand they view their ops here all about extracting the most profit margin possible per connecting passenger. 

While CLT's layout is not ideal (would be preferable if there were two runways on each side of the terminal complex with a layout more like ATL or DTW), there are definitely worse layouts. EWR is in an unenviable position with just two parallel runways, with one handling arrivals and the other handling departures. Blame the FAA, blame United, et. but the airport is complicated for operating a major hub. Many airports also still have separate terminals not connected behind security, which can require exiting your terminal to connect airlines and re-clearing security or you can't access lounges in other terminals (the complicated connecting set up at LAX and notorious traffic in the roadway loop or the Chase lounge not being accessible to Delta passengers at Boston, et.). Depending on the metric for airport layout, I'd say it thus depends. For crowding at the gates.... yeah CLT is probably the worst major airport right now. Renovating B and C versus just starting over was a mistake IMO if American wants to keep growing and adding more A321's to each gate. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by CLT2014

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Most likely cost efficiency + one time ratings. CLT is operating a major hub on a shoe string budget that greatly benefits American Airlines, who is happy to keep sending more and more passengers through the airport without regards to the passenger experience or wanting to agree to a more expensive master lease agreement (they are basically operating at CLT for free compared to other airports). In addition, despite the airport layout and crowding, CLT is operating the majority of flights on time in a region with volatile summer weather with 80%+ on time ratings. Cirium's annual ranking of most on time global airports put CLT #10 (SLC was #1). 

Airports w/ similar passenger volume to CLT: Operating revenue

CLT: $350 million 

Orlando: $683 million

SEA: $800 million

SFO: $820 million

Miami: $900 million

CLT's revenues are more similar to Salt Lake City ($290 million budget), which is moving half the amount of passengers as CLT each year and half the amount of scheduled departures. 

I'd guess other airports look at CLT and are like "How the heck do they even keep the lights on with that budget?" I don't think American is going to abandon the hub at this point and the airport needs to play hardball next time to get them to pay significantly more for their lease agreement. I'm frustrated American is benefiting so much from their operations in CLT while barely wanting to budge on funding more improvements, but I understand they view their ops here all about extracting the most profit margin possible per connecting passenger. 

While CLT's layout is not ideal (would be preferable if there were two runways on each side of the terminal complex with a layout more like ATL or DTW), there are definitely worse layouts. EWR is in an unenviable position with just two parallel runways, with one handling arrivals and the other handling departures. Blame the FAA, blame United, et. but the airport is complicated for operating a major hub. Many airports also still have separate terminals not connected behind security, which can require exiting your terminal to connect airlines and re-clearing security or you can't access lounges in other terminals (the complicated connecting set up at LAX and notorious traffic in the roadway loop or the Chase lounge not being accessible to Delta passengers at Boston, et.). Depending on the metric for airport layout, I'd say it thus depends. For crowding at the gates.... yeah CLT is probably the worst major airport right now. Renovating B and C versus just starting over was a mistake IMO if American wants to keep growing and adding more A321's to each gate. 

To be fair, I don't know of any connecting complex in the U.S. today that requires you to exit the terminal and re-clear security when transferring to the same airline on a domestic flight. The southern terminals at LAX are all connected airside via a series of walkways, and most of the northern terminals are connected via shuttle bus...I think the only terminal that doesn't feature a direct connection to the rest of the complex is the Southwest terminal (T1). It's almost moot because LAX isn't really a connecting complex for any carrier. 

The only facility I can think of where you need to physically leave the terminal and transit in a non-sterile area to another terminal is the FIS/international arrivals process for AA/UA passengers at ORD as both of their terminals (for now) lack FIS. 

In terms of efficiency, I was speaking more in terms of taxiway/airside congestion in terms of aircraft movements rather than the overall PaxEx at the gate. 

CLT is appearing more and more like DTW pre-WorldGateway to me by the day. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by LKN704