Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[DownEast]

As a New Bern resident, I'm flabbergasted that any C-suite fella would have used New Bern as an example for anything. Maybe its the return of Saturday only service to DCA on his mind? Love to have that go daily.

[teeg]

Sun Country previously announced that they would begin twice-weekly MSP-CLT service on April 13th.  But I was just checking their schedule  (looking to plan at least one trip to Minneapolis to catch some Twins games!) when I noticed that their first flight to Charlotte is this Friday, March 31st, with a return to MSP on Sunday April 2nd.   Looking through the summer,  it seems like this and a number of other flights have been added on days immediately before/after Charlotte FC away games -- sometimes, but not always, MSP-CLT the day before, CLT-MSP the day after -- in addition to their weekly Tuesday and Friday flights.  Apologies if this was already mentioned here.

[KJHburg]

 Wow Bao is now open in Concourse C! It is located adjacent to Beatrix Market. Wow Bao offers an assortment of Asian street food - bao, pan seared pot stickers, steamed dumplings and rice bowls. Make sure to grab some dumplings before your flight.    From the Airport's social media. 

https://www.wowbao.com/

[PuppiesandKittens]

Thank you for doing that.

The Admirals Clubs in CLT are overcrowded and filthy; after seeing a Yelp review that states that the general public can just walk in and get away with that due to the crowds, I paid attention to that recently and it’s true (I have paid access, like lots and lots of other people; I didn’t just walk in).

I cannot fathom paying for an international business class ticket and having those bus station waiting room dumps as the departure points.

AA’s finances aren’t the strongest so I guess it invests where it has to, and since it’s a near-monopoly at CLT it doesn’t have to invest there.

In that case, airport leadership should take stronger steps to improve the airport’s condition.  

[xapostrophe]

On a previous page isn't there a plan outlined for a enormous admirals club to be built?  Seems like an investment is coming.

 

Has an employee of AA I'm generally pretty disappointed with our product, but I do think albeit slowly, we are heading in the right direction.

[PuppiesandKittens]

3 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

On a previous page isn't there a plan outlined for a enormous admirals club to be built?  Seems like an investment is coming.

 

Has an employee of AA I'm generally pretty disappointed with our product, but I do think albeit slowly, we are heading in the right direction.

Yes.  Nothing is stopping AA from opening another small one even now, though.

AA’s employees are great-nearly all friendly and helpful- and I take AA because of them.  The planes are nice and the new Admirals Clubs at other airports are also first-rate.  It’s just CLT’s facilities that are the issue.

[videtur quam contuor]

Is an airport a "pleasant place to spend time"? Should it be? Is it necessary? Are there examples of such pleasantness ( or other descriptor of your choice)?

[PuppiesandKittens]

8 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

Is an airport a "pleasant place to spend time"? Should it be? Is it necessary? Are there examples of such pleasantness ( or other descriptor of your choice)?

Pleasant airports (or pleasant places in airports):

GSP Airport in its entirety 

Admirals Club in terminal E at DCA

Admirals Club in terminal B at LGA

EWR Terminal A generally

For people like me who fly every week, and have to work while in transit, having a relatively tranquil place to get work done is high priority.  And plenty of airports are perfectly pleasant (enough) places.  CLT is the exception.  
 

I think that your question should be reversed: should CLT be an unpleasant place to spend time?  Is the unpleasantness necessary?  (The answer to both is no.)

[gman430]

6 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Is an airport a "pleasant place to spend time"? Should it be? Is it necessary? Are there examples of such pleasantness ( or other descriptor of your choice)?

GSP Airport and Singapore. Both were ranked as two of the best airports in the world recently: 

https://www.cnn.com/travel/amp/best-airports-airport-service-quality-awards-aci/index.html

Edited April 10, 2023 by gman430

[xapostrophe]

Well I agree that another admirals club is necessary and should be opened.  I don't think there's actually any readily available space.  And I don't think it's as simple as you think?  What do you suggest? Should Charlotte's get rid of some gates close it off just to build an admirals club?  I thought there should be an admirals club down an e concourse for at least a decade.  But again there's no available real estate to build one.

 

I think the massive one they are going to build is going to be a huge help, however it is obviously going to take some time to get it together.

 

GSP is probably one of my favorite airports in the country.  

[LKN704]

"Pleasant" is relative. 

By and large, I don't think most people (including those on this forum) are expecting U.S. airports to be grandiose spaces. Unfortunately, we place little value on that type of public infrastructure in this country. No one expects or necessarily wants Changi-style movie theatres or butterfly gardens, or Kuala Lumpur-style central gardens. 

Airports are extremely stressful places for a good deal (read: majority) of flyers. Some of us on this forum have the privilege of being frequent flyers, but we must remember that the average American only flies ~1.5 times yearly. The endless queuing, being barked at for no apparent reason at TSA, confusing terminal layouts with poor way-finding signage,  and the endless amount of rules, all really have the ability to take a toll on one's personal psyche. 

What U.S. airports should be are clean, bright, open, and efficient spaces with lots of natural light, accented by cool color tones that will never go out of style (blues, grays, wood tones, or just plain white) and backed by good way-finding signage that allows both frequent and infrequent flyers to move through the terminal space with ease. 

One terminal that I always think back to for some reason in terms of the characteristics I described is SFO Terminal 3.  The terminal is absolutely ancient... older than any part of CLT's terminal structure, but thanks to great design (which was probably quite forward-thinking in the 1970s when it was constructed) that features wide concourses with high ceilings and clean bright walls with lots of natural light, it feels a lot younger than it actually is. 

Sadly, the terminal is planned to be completely rebuilt (in a style aligned with the other rebuilt SFO terminals, which is excellent)...I'll be sad to see the nostalgia of this terminal disappear. 

22 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Yes.  Nothing is stopping AA from opening another small one even now, though.

AA’s employees are great-nearly all friendly and helpful- and I take AA because of them.  The planes are nice and the new Admirals Clubs at other airports are also first-rate.  It’s just CLT’s facilities that are the issue.

There are a million things stopping AA from opening another small club at CLT, even if you put cost/money aside. There is literally no space at present. 

Regarding AA, I gave up on them earlier this year and haven’t looked back. UA’s service is like night and day compared to AA, the crews are better, they have a better network, and their frequent flyer program is superior.  Frankly, I can't imagine why anyone would go out of their way at this point to fly them unless they lived in a hub-captive market (like CLT) where they had no choice. 

Another frequent flyer I sat next to the other week who also recently switched from AA to UA told me this:

DL is happy to have you fly with them. 

UA is indifferent toward you flying with them. 

AA is absolutely angry that you choose to fly with them. 

I have noticed a drastic decline in AA over the past couple of years (even before the pandemic), and I've often noticed a great deal of their staff acting downright hostile to passengers, for no apparent reason. From a customer service agent screaming at an elderly traveler for not knowing how to use the kiosk to a flight attendant telling a woman who gave herself a paper cut "You should have brought your own band-aids if you needed them…we don't have any first aid supplies on the aircraft." 

I boarded an AA flight in January and the lead flight attendant was standing at the forward door with a giant scowl on his face. I greeted him with "Good morning, how are you" and he rolled his eyes and sarcastically said, "Someone is a little too cheery today." I wish I could get away with treating my external customers like that at my job…

I totally get that customer service is a hard job and understand that crews were subjected to endless abuse during the pandemic when they were forced to play mask police. I sympathize with them 100%. I get that they feel that their employer doesn't always have their back in terms of sick time, contracts, pay, etc...I really do. None of that is an excuse however for treating your actual customers like garbage, however. 

AA's planes are frankly the worst of any major U.S. carrier. The cabins of the ancient A320s are literally falling apart, their domestic fleet (in both cabins) has noticeably less seat padding than UA/DL, and don’t even get me started on the whole IFE situation (which from my understanding, AA corporate now sees as a huge mistake). 

It's honestly quite sad because I know so many awesome AA employees who want what's best for both their customers and the operation.

[49er]

What Charlotte lacks is enough common area space. The atrium is simply too small and I've not seen any plans that show an expansion. The plaza addition and seating areas in concourse a and other places have added some dispersed areas but it really feels cramped for such a busy airport. Locals are seeing the vast improvements to the main terminal but for those connecting I can see why the reviews aren't always stellar. 

[LKN704]

3 minutes ago, 49er said:

What Charlotte lacks is enough common area space. The atrium is simply too small and I've not seen any plans that show an expansion. The plaza addition and seating areas in concourse a and other places have added some dispersed areas but it really feels cramped for such a busy airport. Locals are seeing the vast improvements to the main terminal but for those connecting I can see why the reviews aren't always stellar. 

Personally, I've never found the atrium to be a problem (other than having to deal with people who lack spatial awareness or try to walk through a busy airport terminal with their eyes glued to their phones).

It's the physical B+C concourses that are a problem, as seen below:

No amount of LED lighting, new seating with charging ports, new bathrooms, or new signage will have an impact on the overall experience of flying through CLT unless something is done regarding the hold room space. 

 

[CLT2014]

There are no appealing options for Concourse B and C for American Airlines. 

Option 1: Build an entirely new concourse in a different area of the airport and keep Concourse B and C open while the new concourse is built. Avoids requiring American to downsize operations at CLT temporarily. Would definitely require an increase in the charges for the Master Lease Agreement to American Airlines to fund the 33 gate replacement and likely a people mover. 

Option 2: Replace Concourse B and Concourse C one at a time, gradually tearing down a portion of the gates and building the replacement building. Requires American to downsize a portion of their operations at CLT temporarily. Would require an increase in the Lease Agreement to AA. 

Option 3: Keep the current structures, but moving to a rolling hub schedule instead of a banked hub. Instead of all the flights leaving at the exact same time, flights would be spread throughout the day. This would automatically reduce the amount of flights leaving side-by-side at the same time about 30% and make the terminal feel less crowded. This would require American Airlines to change their operations to accommodate the building size. 

Option 4: American downsizes CLT to fit the size of the structure. Go from a 700+ daily hub operation to about ~600 as Concourse B and C cannot accommodate 15 Airbus A321 aircraft with nearly 200 people leaving at the same time. This would leave some gate slack in the system and reduce crowds in the terminal. Investors in AA would likely freak out as they know each flight connecting through CLT is more profitable than spreading that connecting traffic over other hubs (i.e. Nashville -> Charlotte -> Providence, RI is more profitable than Nashville -> Chicago -> Providence). 

Something has to give, but American Airlines does not want to pay more at CLT and wants the airport to keep costs as low as possible. They also don't want any construction to require them to lose gates or downsize their operations at one of their most profitable hubs. They also don't want the expense of a completely net-new $2 billion+ 33 gate concourse to impact their lease agreement. Because American isn't willing to budge on their desire for a cheap hub nor their desire to run the hub at absolute full capacity with no gates shut down for construction.... CLT management and American Airlines ended up in their compromise of just doing a renovation to Concourse B and C (which let the terminal stay open / active during the day).  

Even with the terminals in the crowded state they are, American keeps adding more and more flights. Pushing the capacity of the terminals beyond the limit to extract every last dollar out of the flying public at a hub that produces profitable operations for AA. If passenger experience mattered, AA would route more of their hub network through other locations to reduce the capacity burden at CLT, but their management team is obsessed with this airport from a profitability standpoint, regularly brags about our low operating costs as a strategic advantage, and will gladly push it beyond the limit before partnering with the airport on a costly (but needed) total replacement of B and C. 

The ironic thing is when you go over to the non-AA portion of the airport at A-North, it is completely underutilized and very spacious. Some gates only see 3 or 4 flights per day because they airlines that lease those gates don't run a full schedule like AA. In addition to being a newer / wider space... gates often are empty so there is plenty of room to spread out. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by CLT2014

[PuppiesandKittens]

CLT found room to open an AmEx lounge and another lounge within the past few months/years and it could certainly find space for a new Admirals Club.  
 

- The mezzanine in the main atrium area, which had a temporary Admirals Club recently 

- The former BA lounge space in terminal D

- Any space currently occupied by a store or restaurant, which could be replaced by a lounge (does anyone actually shop at the Brooks Brothers or at the La Brioche Doree)?

[thenewkage95]

Took a trip to the new (temporary hopefully?) airport overlook and snapped a pic or two of the 4th parallel runway construction. They are in full swing!!

[KJHburg]

To read the comments on CLT airport I would have thought we were in last place in terms of customer satisfaction.  With any place I know there is room for improvement but this JD Powers survey from last fall as the #10 Best Mega large US airports.   We bested such airports as Phoenix, FLL, Seattle, Houston Intercontinental. Toronto, LAX, and others.

Here are the top 5 in this category same as CLT

1. Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport

2. San Francisco International Airport

3. (tie) Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport

3. (tie) John F. Kennedy International Airport (New York City)

5. Harry Reid International Airport (Paradise, Nevada)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2022/09/21/ranked-the-best-and-worst-airports-in-america/?sh=6c30e9537398

[Temeteron]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

To read the comments on CLT airport I would have thought we were in last place in terms of customer satisfaction.  With any place I know there is room for improvement but this JD Powers survey from last fall as the #10 Best Mega large US airports.   We bested such airports as Phoenix, FLL, Seattle, Houston Intercontinental. Toronto, LAX, and others.

Here are the top 5 in this category same as CLT

1. Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport

2. San Francisco International Airport

3. (tie) Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport

3. (tie) John F. Kennedy International Airport (New York City)

5. Harry Reid International Airport (Paradise, Nevada)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2022/09/21/ranked-the-best-and-worst-airports-in-america/?sh=6c30e9537398

Not sure about some of the others but PHX is not that great.  The layout is horrible and food options are much worse than CLT

[DJ8hep]

Crazy MSP made the top! I’ll admit though, it is a pretty well set up airport which I lived only 5 minutes away from before relocating. Definitely great for last minute trips!

[xapostrophe]

The amex lounge required a 3 story many million dollar addition.  Took years.  The old ba lounge is a food area, maybe it could be converted back, but you would be reducing food options down in d by like half.

 

I agree on the mezzanine area, but if they're going to build a huge addition upstairs with what is reported to be an enormous lounge, why waste the money on building a short term (temporary) lounge.

 

I would argue for dropping a few gates in e con and building a smaller lounge there.  Or something near A with the international departures down there and the soon to be additional AA gates in that area.

Who knows what the future holds here, but frankly if you were running an airline that's practically printing money in Charlotte would you disrupt that so you can offer a lounge to a very small contingent of passengers?(most pax are group 9 non business passengers)

 

I wouldn't.  I would just wait for the additions that are planned and keep improving slowly. 

Speaking of additions the new taxiways and runway construction seems to be full speed ahead recently.  

[KJHburg]

36 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

Not sure about some of the others but PHX is not that great.  The layout is horrible and food options are much worse than CLT

I will never forget the time I landed at PHX at 10 am one summer day and they said "Welcome to Phoenix the temperature is 100 degrees!"  I do remember my luggage being delivered out very quickly much quicker than CLT.  

[JRCLT]

Took a trip to the new (temporary hopefully?) airport overlook and snapped a pic or two of the 4th parallel runway construction. They are in full swing!!
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/73287421-D7CC-4688-BA0D-6131F708D9F4.thumb.jpeg.3e7c8ca01fa7f4a3bec9ab712ec41e8c.jpeg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/606C3FD7-118C-4B69-ADEA-7BAE843B47AA.thumb.jpeg.a5f9f85f36c8c449cf0cd06afbf8e767.jpeg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/D5FBC3B8-ABB9-405D-A032-AD5502AF3390.thumb.jpeg.3a7bb3e121c67496bc70e800839cb8fe.jpeg

That’s the north end taxiway…don’t think the 4th runway has started construction yet as the airport has just recently got the Environmental Assessment approved. Construction of that runway is probably another 5 or so years away.

[PuppiesandKittens]

14 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

The amex lounge required a 3 story many million dollar addition.  Took years.  The old ba lounge is a food area, maybe it could be converted back, but you would be reducing food options down in d by like half.

 

I agree on the mezzanine area, but if they're going to build a huge addition upstairs with what is reported to be an enormous lounge, why waste the money on building a short term (temporary) lounge.

 

I would argue for dropping a few gates in e con and building a smaller lounge there.  Or something near A with the international departures down there and the soon to be additional AA gates in that area.

Who knows what the future holds here, but frankly if you were running an airline that's practically printing money in Charlotte would you disrupt that so you can offer a lounge to a very small contingent of passengers?(most pax are group 9 non business passengers)

 

I wouldn't.  I would just wait for the additions that are planned and keep improving slowly. 

Speaking of additions the new taxiways and runway construction seems to be full speed ahead recently.  

I wouldn’t view passengers with lounge access as a “small contingent”.

Basically anyone with an AA credit card can get lounge access.  That’s a lot of people.

And if AmEx views spending on lounges as worthwhile for its credit card business, surely Citibank and Barclays would at least be aware that lounge access is something that might be worth investing in.

[LKN704]

On 4/10/2023 at 3:34 PM, CLT2014 said:

There are no appealing options for Concourse B and C for American Airlines. 

Option 1: Build an entirely new concourse in a different area of the airport and keep Concourse B and C open while the new concourse is built. Avoids requiring American to downsize operations at CLT temporarily. Would definitely require an increase in the charges for the Master Lease Agreement to American Airlines to fund the 33 gate replacement and likely a people mover. 

I beginning to think this is where we will end up. AA likely won't be happy, but unfortunately, the current haphazard terminal has its limits and will eventually reach a point where the cost of doing endless renovations will eventually make building a brand new satellite pier midfield the most prudent decision from a financial standpoint. 

I know the midfield "hammerhead" concourse is designed to replace E, but as it stands, I don't think we will need a full replacement for the concourse. 

The U.S. aviation landscape is on the cusp of a major structural change that we haven't seen since the deregulation days, and it's puzzling to me that no one is talking about it. It's going to be painful and countless cities around the country are going to lose service as a result. 

In short, regional jets (even larger ones like the CR9/E175) will not be around forever and will likely not have a replacement. 

In the long term, any city that cannot sustain service by smaller mainline aircraft (say something the size of an A319) will be dropped. It's smarter from an economics perspective to fly a half-full A319 with high ticket prices than to fly a fully-loaded gas-guzzling outsourced regional jet. As 50-seat aircraft now begin to sunset, heaps of cities around the country are now seeing CR9s/E175s as a last resort to try to retain service. 

I'm willing to bet that within 5 years, a large percentage of metro areas smaller than 150,000 people will have either lost all air service or be down to a single carrier. 

There will be exceptions to this, of course...mostly high-yielding (money talks!) markets that are kept...Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, Aspen, and Hilton Head all come to mind. 

Those Charlotte to Huntington, Florence, Erie, and Lynchburg flights are as good as gone. 

Airlines are likely to consolidate their resources and service in smaller cities they choose to keep, especially once regional jets become sparse. For example, does it make financial sense for AA to serve both Chicago and Charlotte from a city like Appleton (WI)? Instead of serving Appleton-Charlotte once daily and Appleton-Chicago thrice daily (all on regional jets), it might make financial sense to enhance Appleton-Chicago service with larger, mainline aircraft. 

As I have said before, the only way CLT gets a "brand new" facility is via the hammerhead concourse and building "stingers" onto B + C. Connect the "stingers" together and voilà, you have three parallel concourses (present day A + D, B/C stinger combination, and new hammerhead concourse). 

14 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

would you disrupt that so you can offer a lounge to a very small contingent of passengers?(most pax are group 9 non business passengers)

This. 

IIRC, I believe the BA Terraces Lounge is now the USO lounge. 

16 hours ago, KJHburg said:

To read the comments on CLT airport I would have thought we were in last place in terms of customer satisfaction.  With any place I know there is room for improvement but this JD Powers survey from last fall as the #10 Best Mega large US airports.   We bested such airports as Phoenix, FLL, Seattle, Houston Intercontinental. Toronto, LAX, and others.

Here are the top 5 in this category same as CLT

1. Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport

2. San Francisco International Airport

3. (tie) Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport

3. (tie) John F. Kennedy International Airport (New York City)

5. Harry Reid International Airport (Paradise, Nevada)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2022/09/21/ranked-the-best-and-worst-airports-in-america/?sh=6c30e9537398

Frankly all of these "surveys" are relative. There are also endless surveys that indicate CLT is one of the worst airports in the country. 

[LKN704]

15 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Basically anyone with an AA credit card can get lounge access.  That’s a lot of people.

And if AmEx views spending on lounges as worthwhile for its credit card business, surely Citibank and Barclays would at least be aware that lounge access is something that might be worth investing in.

Um no, not basically anyone with an AA credit card can get lounge access. 

There are currently 9 co-branded cards AA offers with Citi and Barclays, only one of which offers an Admirals Club membership, the Citi AAdvantage Executive Mastercard. The number of people (even amongst those who travel) who have an appetite to spend $450 on a credit card annual fee that has poor earning + redemption benefits (non-co-branded cards are usually far superior) is smaller than one would think.

Amex caters to an entirely different demographic than Citi/Barclays do. 

If AA felt that there was a need for another club in Charlotte, they would have built one long ago. 

Really grasping at straws here.