Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Professor]

From Frankfurt, I recently flew Lufthansa to Madrid. I had to leave the terminal, get on a bus to board my plane. There was no change in airline, just a straight flight. Also, it was raining. 

[CLT2014]

5 hours ago, LKN704 said:

The only facility I can think of where you need to physically leave the terminal and transit in a non-sterile area to another terminal is the FIS/international arrivals process for AA/UA passengers at ORD as both of their terminals (for now) lack FIS. 

In terms of efficiency, I was speaking more in terms of taxiway/airside congestion in terms of aircraft movements rather than the overall PaxEx at the gate. 

CLT is appearing more and more like DTW pre-WorldGateway to me by the day. 

The other airport I was thinking of (besides ORD) was SkyTeam connections at JFK between Delta and airlines like Air France or China Eastern for domestic -> international trips requiring you to exit Terminal 4 and re-clear security at Terminal 1 via Air Train. Several other airports have behind security connections that are via a bus, which I'm not a fan of with a stroller and kids. Had a United connection through EWR that arrived at A (really nicely done) with a departing flight from C and had to get the kiddo out of the stroller, break it down, load on the bus, et... and then put it all back together on the other side. 

[Professor]

21 hours ago, Larry Singer said:

From Frankfurt, I recently flew Lufthansa to Madrid. I had to leave the terminal, get on a bus to board my plane. There was no change in airline, just a straight flight. Also, it was raining. 

To the confused person: We are talking about leaving terminals to catch a flight. I said that I had to in Frankford when flying Lufthansa. 

[15895]

26 minutes ago, Larry Singer said:

To the confused person: We are talking about leaving terminals to catch a flight. I said that I had to in Frankford when flying Lufthansa. 

I think “leave the Terminal” by some means behind security (as in you land and after customs you have to “exit” behind regular security at the ticket counters and go through check-in & security.)

I think in youre talking about physically exiting a terminal. So you go to a gate, get on a bus that drives you to a plane. That doesn’t involve going through security etc to then board your plane.

I think in the US we have few examples of that whereas it’s super common everywhere else. The US has like some regional gates where one gate serves multiple planes and you have to be bussed to your plane. At Newark recently after arriving in customs in the facility mostly used by United, they made us “exit” the airport. TSA was a b word and my connection was tight. Then my gate was one of those that served like 5 regional aircraft and we had to board the DCA bus. So worst of both worlds xD

[tozmervo]

It has been years since I arrived in CLT on an International flight. If folks have connections, does CLT have dedicated security to process those passengers back through to their connection, or do they have to exit out through baggage and back upstairs to re-enter?

[CLT2014]

37 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

It has been years since I arrived in CLT on an International flight. If folks have connections, does CLT have dedicated security to process those passengers back through to their connection, or do they have to exit out through baggage and back upstairs to re-enter?

There is a bag drop after clearing customs for checked bags to continue their journey, but the security screening process for the connecting domestic flight is back upstairs through the standard security check points. 

Due to construction at CLT, only checkpoints A and E are open for regular security screening. Checkpoint B is closed for remodeling, Checkpoint C is TSA Precheck only, and Checkpoint D is Employees + TSA Precheck overflow. Due to the reduction in security lanes right now, A and E are regularly 20 minute+ waits with the masses of people that travel rarely, have their overstuffed carry on bag with toiletries and laptop, and move slowly. The TSA Precheck Checkpoint at C is still usually walk right through to 5 minute waits. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

That's makes me curious about the profile of intl pax.

Anyone know if It's heavily biased towards connections, like domestic is, or does it shift? I didn't think AA was using this for an intl hub? 

[kermit]

41 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

That's makes me curious about the profile of intl pax.

Anyone know if It's heavily biased towards connections, like domestic is, or does it shift? I didn't think AA was using this for an intl hub? 

I have had more than one CLT-LHR flight held up waiting on connecting passengers from the Caribbean to pass through customs. I am sure AA pushes most of those passengers to travel via Miami (or on BA), but a few folks still find a way. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by kermit

[CLT2014]

The Lufthansa flight largely has Charlotte as the final destination on the US side (and uses Munich as the connecting hub), but the American international flights at CLT are overwhelmingly filled with connections from domestic to international and vice versa. The power of the hub is how we have 3x daily flights to London (879 seats / day), Rome, more niche Caribbean destinations like Curacao, Bermuda, and Barbados, Belize City in Central America, et...  and the list goes on. 

Are there 160 people in the Charlotte area going to Curacao each day in the winter? No way. But when you take all of CLT's domestic connections to help fill a 737, Charlotte manages to be one of just 5 cities connected to Curacao from the US (others are Miami, Atlanta, New York JFK, and Newark). 

The Triangle is a good indicator of what demand in the Carolinas looks like without a hub. RDU has just 2 international destinations in the Caribbean and Mexico (Cancun and Nassau). They don't even have nonstop service to very popular locations like Punta Cana or Montego Bay. Meanwhile due to the hub CLT has 29 nonstop destinations in the Caribbean, Central America, and Mexico (some service is seasonal) and the most popular routes with multiple flights per day. 

International to international is less common just due to demand, but AA is definitely selling routes like Cancun - Charlotte - London, Montego Bay - Charlotte - Madrid, et. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by CLT2014

[LKN704]

International-to-international connections are also suppressed because U.S. airports don't have designated international terminals and current law requires all passengers to clear CBP screening and claim/re-check their bags, regardless of final destination. 

It's very hard to get publicly-accessible origin/destination passenger numbers on international routes as such data is considered classified. 

There are some rudimentary datasets out there that provide rough estimates and I came across an excellent dataset a couple of weeks ago (which of course I can no longer find) that looked at both connecting traffic and the POS of international routes at key U.S. airports. Of all CLT-European routes, CLT-MUC had the highest number of European POS passengers (I believe it was 40% European POS and 60% U.S. POS) followed by CLT-FRA. 

The Triangle really punches about its weight in terms of international origin/destination traffic, relative to other metro areas of a similar size. RDU-LHR had higher origin/destination traffic levels than any other NC-European route for years, though I am not sure if that's still the case. 

I managed to take this picture from the Centurion Lounge last night...the sky was gorgeous:

Updated signage at the entrance to each concourse...they removed the red lettering that said "Gates BX-BY" and painted the circle in the compass a metallic gold finish:

There was also a new "Welcome to Charlotte" sign written in the same metallic gold font, but I didn't take a photo of it as it seemed under construction and in an awkward location. The sign was over the western part of the food court in the Atrium.

[atlrvr]

38 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

 

 

I'll really miss that A340-600 when it finally goes out of service.

[xapostrophe]

You must have just missed my pushback from d8.   Was great to see the 340 again.   It was pretty post near miss with the thunderstorm north of the airport.

[csweet]

5 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

There is a bag drop after clearing customs for checked bags to continue their journey, but the security screening process for the connecting domestic flight is back upstairs through the standard security check points. 

Due to construction at CLT, only checkpoints A and E are open for regular security screening. Checkpoint B is closed for remodeling, Checkpoint C is TSA Precheck only, and Checkpoint D is Employees + TSA Precheck overflow. Due to the reduction in security lanes right now, A and E are regularly 20 minute+ waits with the masses of people that travel rarely, have their overstuffed carry on bag with toiletries and laptop, and move slowly. The TSA Precheck Checkpoint at C is still usually walk right through to 5 minute waits. 

B was open for Precheck only today, 30 min line when I went through.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Wild variance, ~10:30am it was about 5-10 minutes for Precheck at Checkpoint C.  And I kept my perfect streak of being selected for a random screening in 2023 

[KJHburg]

Image of 4th parallel runway the CLT social account posted.  they said they CLT is one of 3 airports out of 3000 worldwide adding a runway right now.  

 

[LKN704]

I've found TSA at CLT to be quite strange. As a habit when flying out of CLT, I regularly bring full-size (12 oz) bottles of body wash/conditioner through the checkpoint, and no one bats an eye. I've been selected for random screening at CLT and had agents rummage through my bag like a stoned person would go through a bag of Doritos only for the agent to find my body wash bottle, look at it, say nothing, and put it back in my bag.

I've often felt the sensitivity level for random screening at TSA Pre lanes is set differently than other airports, as I usually always get randomly selected at CLT, but I've never been selected at other airports. 

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

they said they CLT is one of 3 airports out of 3000 worldwide adding a runway right now.  

What a weird, egotistical statement for the airport to make IMO...somehow reminds me of how the Mayor was making those cringe announcements welcoming people to "America's 15th largest city." There are literally thousands of additional runways planned around the world, from Raleigh to Brisbane to London. Under construction? Sure. 

[KJHburg]

43 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I

What a weird, egotistical statement for the airport to make IMO...somehow reminds me of how the Mayor was making those cringe announcements welcoming people to "America's 15th largest city." There are literally thousands of additional runways planned around the world, from Raleigh to Brisbane to London. Under construction? Sure. 

I think it was meant to say under construction right now. 

[xapostrophe]

For what reason would Raleigh ever need a third parallel??????

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, xapostrophe said:

For what reason would Raleigh ever need a third parallel??????

It isn't a third parallel but rather a replacement for 5L/23R which will then be converted to a taxiway.

To rub salt into the wound, the new RDU runway will be longer than any of CLT's runways, at 10,639 feet. It was originally supposed to be 10,000 feet but the FAA gave its blessing to extend it after Alaska Airlines lobbied for the additional length to accommodate their 737-900ER.

[xapostrophe]

Bizarre.  If they need the length I get it, but that airport isn't busy enough to justify an additional runway.    Not sure how we get boned on the length here in Charlotte.

[Crucial_Infra]

On 8/1/2023 at 8:41 AM, KJHburg said:

Image of 4th parallel runway the CLT social account posted.  they said they CLT is one of 3 airports out of 3000 worldwide adding a runway right now.  

 

Those three parallel runways on the west side are gonna be in a super tight configuration (something like 4460’). Flying around on Google earth, only O’Hare has as narrow a set-up for 3 runways (~4500’).

The next narrowest configuration I could find were: Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Frankfurt — all around 1.1 to 1.2 miles and all except ATL are staggered runways so not truly parallel like CLT will be. Just found it interesting. Also feel free to check my work which I doubt would stand up to peer review. 
 

Edit to add: when it comes to 4-parallel runway configurations: CLT will have about 1.79 mi between the four. That’s comparable to DTW (1.7 mi), and DFW (1.7 mi) and not nearly as tight as LAX (1.18 mi), ATL (1.26 mi) and Istanbul (IST) with 4 parallels within 1.1 miles. 
 

IST, ATL, and DFW have 5-parallel runways of course but was just trying to compare the narrowest 4 runways. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Crucial_Infra

[LKN704]

3 minutes ago, Crucial_Infra said:

Those three parallel runways on the west side are gonna be in a super tight configuration (something like 4460’). Flying around on Google earth, only O’Hare has as narrow a set-up for 3 runways (~4500’).

The next narrowest configuration I could find were: Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Frankfurt — all around 1.1 to 1.2 miles and all except ATL are staggered runways so not truly parallel like CLT will be. Just found it interesting. Also feel free to check my work which I doubt would stand up to peer review. 

Separation between the new runway (dubbed 01/19) and runway 18R/36L (the westernmost runway next to I-485) will be 3,100 feet. Separation between 01/19 and 18C/36C will only be 1,200 feet. 

The new runway will be primarily for departure use as the distance between it and 18C/36C does not meet safety requirements for simultaneous approaches.

[BarrenLucidity]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:09 PM, xapostrophe said:

Bizarre.  If they need the length I get it, but that airport isn't busy enough to justify an additional runway.    Not sure how we get boned on the length here in Charlotte.

AA said they didn't need it so the FAA didn't grant it.

[Take2]

Spirit adding non-stop service to Chicago... 

[CLT2014]

CLT needs more runways, but not necessarily longer runways. American Airlines and their One World partners knows this, which is why they did not lobby to request a longer runway. With international configured aircraft moving away from giant behemoths like the 747 and A380, our runway lengths are not holding back any realistic service. Modern international planes are actually pretty efficient at runway usage (ironically more efficient than Alaska's domestic 737-900ER just flying to Seattle and can need 10,400 feet to take off!). 

Reasons 10,000 is fine for CLT:

1.) We are not a major international cargo hub and likely will not become one with direct cargo links to international destinations. 
2.) Charlotte's primary international connections are to Latin America and Europe. 
3.) Airlines are not operating the runway hogging 737-900ER to CLT for West Coast service (American's A321 aircraft can take off just fine operating flights to the West Coast). 
3.) If airlines did decide they wanted to start long haul service between Charlotte and Asia, the most common aircraft to operate a route like this is the Boeing 787 and Airbus A350. These aircraft can take off just fine on Charlotte's 10,000 foot runways to head to East Asia (Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, et.) and are efficient with runway usage. 

Boston-Logan for example operates multiple long haul flights to Asia on runways that are also only 10,000 feet and routes from Charlotte would be comparable distance wise. Boston is at sea level and CLT is at 761 feet, which changes things slightly, but we don't need a longer runway for this service. 

• 7,950 miles from Boston to Hong Kong on Cathay Pacific A350-1000. (This one is pretty far, CLT for reference is 8,335 miles)
• 6,700 miles from Boston to Tokyo on a JAL 787  (CLT for reference is 6,850 miles)
• 6,800 miles from Boston to Seoul on a Korean Air 777-300ER (CLT for reference is 7,097 miles)