Music City Center, 1.2 million sq. ft., $623 million

[MTSUBlueraider86]

Yeah...that guy was a real Supermod, wasn't he?

I've bounced around and lurked a bit of the skyscraper/development/urban forums. In the last year, I've become a little more interested, though. The economy has been a real bummer as of late...but it looks like there are a lot of positive signs out there for things to really start to get moving soon.

I went to one of the forum meets waaaaaay back...I can't remember much, other than we walked around quite a bit. Fun conversation, though. I'd like to do that again sometime soon. When I start talking about my visions for where I want to see this city go, most of my friends and family's eyes glaze over.

That was one of the best meets we ever had! We had you Nashvol, myself the doorman, Dave, Kheldane, Rural King (Tyson), Justin who since moved several times, and a few others. We got caught in the rain and ended up at the Renaissance Hotel. That was before William Williams, Smeagolsfree, and the others joined the fray. Good times indeed! I remember Kheldane (Mike) took pics of the Viridian when only four stories of the parking garage were completed. That was in spring of 2005 I believe.

I'll never forget that forum meet. We all ate at San Antonio Taco Company. We also went to the top of Tony's garage on Deadrick Street. Welcome back!

[UTgrad09]

That was one of the best meets we ever had! We had you Nashvol, myself the doorman, Dave, Kheldane, Rural King (Tyson), Justin who since moved several times, and a few others. We got caught in the rain and ended up at the Renaissance Hotel. That was before William Williams, Smeagolsfree, and the others joined the fray. Good times indeed! I remember Kheldane (Mike) took pics of the Viridian when only four stories of the parking garage were completed. That was in spring of 2005 I believe.

I'll never forget that forum meet. We all ate at San Antonio Taco Company. We also went to the top of Tony's garage on Deadrick Street. Welcome back!

Yeah, Spring 05 sounds right. Yeah, several of those things ring a bell. I also remember going to the Doubletree and BoA courtyard, too.

Weather is getting nice, and the trees are starting to bud & bloom. Let's do it again.

[nashvylle]

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2012/7/17/convention_center_passes_700000_room_nights_booked

Great news. Technically at 730k room nights. Let's surpass the 1 million mark!

[Guest]

Great video log of the MCC's progress.

On Budget and 39 weeks to go! Well Done..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0xeGo9caFs

[e-dub]

incredible, thanks so much for sharing.

[East Side Urbanite]

That was one of the best meets we ever had! We had you Nashvol, myself the doorman, Dave, Kheldane, Rural King (Tyson), Justin who since moved several times, and a few others. We got caught in the rain and ended up at the Renaissance Hotel. That was before William Williams, Smeagolsfree, and the others joined the fray. Good times indeed! I remember Kheldane (Mike) took pics of the Viridian when only four stories of the parking garage were completed. That was in spring of 2005 I believe.

I'll never forget that forum meet. We all ate at San Antonio Taco Company. We also went to the top of Tony's garage on Deadrick Street. Welcome back!

Great memory, BlueRaider. Wish I had been there. And the year sounds correct.

WW

[bwithers1]

William Williams has an article in the Post about negotiations between Metro and the Renaissance Hotel about ongoing use of the existing Convention Center space for the next few years. It seems obvious that there will still be demand for this space from groups that are not large enough to use the Music City Center, not to mention the hotel's own meeting space needs.

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2012/10/24/convention_center_contract_discussions_continue_with_future_of_facility_uncertain

[bigeasy]

What actually qualifies something as Class A, Class B, etc? I hope this is not a very noob question

Edited October 25, 2012 by bigeasy

[bwithers1]

What actually qualifies something as Class A, Class B, etc? I hope this is not a very noob question

That is a question that I had in mind, too. Particularly for meeting space. The lower layers of the convention center have very, very 1980s details to them, such as the dark wood paneling on the walls and whatnot. I kind of like the way that the escalators go through a center ring area between floors and leave a little informal meeting area (or an information/sales table area) in the center. But at the same time, that arrangement sort of reminds me of a mall.

There is the very large theater section with windows from the hallways that allow you to see the presentations on the screen without necessarily sitting in the theater, which to me has a surprisingly large seating capacity for presentations. It was great for the International Bluegrass Music Association Fan Fair shows (that group is moving to Raleigh, NC next year).

I hope that something gets worked out so that those spaces can get updated. Since it seems that those spaces are going to stay for a while, they might as well be the best that they can be. Because right now, going from those into the renovated Renaissance is like coming out of a dark hole and going into the light.

[smeagolsfree]

Here is an article form WW in the Post about options for the old center.

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2012/10/28/local_real_estate_pros_weigh_in_on_future_of_convention_center_site

[ariesjow]

^ I'm not feeling the idea of big box retail for the old MCC, but what about a combo of House of Blues along with structured parking underneath as Gary Gaston suggested. Would there be enough space for both?

[TNinVB]

Lol bring back Signature Tower!!!

[UTgrad09]

Put the Guitar tower on the old convention center site...give it some neon trim, and it will blend right in with some of the tackiness on Lower Broad!

Kidding, of course.

[TNinVB]

Lol I was going to say!

[dmillsphoto]

10ECN breaks down that we do in fact need more hotels. Even with all the accessory hotels, they are still looking to fill the sudden void to attract the larger conventions, Hopefully this bodes well for the 4* full service hotel between 2nd and 3rd Ave. Hopefully it also raises the height.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20121109/NEWS01/311090066/Music-City-Center-loses-out-conventions-because-hotel-void?odyssey=tab{sodEmoji.|}topnews{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}FRONTPAGE

[timmay143]

Again, I am really surprised nothing has been announced or more aren't already under construction, especially since it opens in under than 6 months!! Also agree about the height, we could actually see a 40+ tower! KVB has no height limits right? Put it there! It's right across from the MCC! Would be cool to see it close to the round about!!

[nvestnbna]

Again, I am really surprised nothing has been announced or more aren't already under construction, especially since it opens in under than 6 months!! Also agree about the height, we could actually see a 40+ tower! KVB has no height limits right? Put it there! It's right across from the MCC! Would be cool to see it close to the round about!!

You are correct, theoretically a building could have no height restrictions. By right properties fronting KVB have 30 stories, with that restriction lifted if the building attains certain benchmarks (which I am not sure what they are). SoBro roundabout site seems to be very interesting.

[UTgrad09]

You are correct, theoretically a building could have no height restrictions. By right properties fronting KVB have 30 stories, with that restriction lifted if the building attains certain benchmarks (which I am not sure what they are). SoBro roundabout site seems to be very interesting.

Love that shot. Anyone who hasn't explored the nashville.gov page for the convention center needs to check it out.

http://www.metrophotos.nashville.gov/eventphotos/images/index.html

Lots of great aerials (as well as other shots)...and HUGE pictures.

[bwithers1]

My question is whether currently planned developments might actually start to fill the need for hotels to support the convention center?

For example, if the West End Summit ends up including a hotel (such as an Interncontinental), and the Buckingham project includes lots of meeting space in its rather large hotel space, wouldn't that be 2 out of the 3-4 that are mentioned as being needed? I am guessing that the Lower Broadway hotel will remain rather small - there's so much opposition to the proposed height already that close to Lower Broad. Will these hotels be too far from the convention center to be effective for that purpose?

I'm also kind of puzzling over the comparison to Orlando: I mean are we seriosly wanting to compare Nashville to Orlando with all of the Disney hotels? We'll never catch up to that one. Orlando goes head-to-head with Chicago and Las Vegas for those mega-conventions. And my understanding is that Orlando's hotels are Opryland-style hotels in suburban areas, unless someone tells me that they are all downtown and urban.

Even the comparison to Indianapolis is confusing to me. They have a huge Hilton (dated!) and a Hyatt (also dated!) as well as some other hotels downtown (some nice and new, or renovations of historic buildings), but I don't think that other than two or three that any of them are massive. They have a Conrad (which I would love to get here) and a lot of the usual stuff, a lot of other, smaller or mid-size hotels. So I'm not sure where there are like a half-dozen massive hotels downtown. I travel to Indy to visit family a few times a year, and I can tell you that downtown hotels sell out a lot, but they also will sharply discount rates when the conventions are not in town.

I think that the TIF question is interesting. Could we give it to one developer based on location specifics (like giving it to the Lower Broadway hotel in order to offset the cost of working around historically-protected buildings) but not give it to others, who can purchase a large lot and build unfettered in any of various lots to the south or west or even in select locations to the east or north of the convention center? The TIF question will get tricky for the council members who are up for reelection in 2015, which is not that far away.

[UTgrad09]

My question is whether currently planned developments might actually start to fill the need for hotels to support the convention center?

For example, if the West End Summit ends up including a hotel (such as an Interncontinental), and the Buckingham project includes lots of meeting space in its rather large hotel space, wouldn't that be 2 out of the 3-4 that are mentioned as being needed? I am guessing that the Lower Broadway hotel will remain rather small - there's so much opposition to the proposed height already that close to Lower Broad. Will these hotels be too far from the convention center to be effective for that purpose?

As usual, you bring up some great points. I won't address the comparisons to other cities, because honestly I have zero experience with large conventions.

I do think that we might have enough or be close with the number of proposed or imminent hotels in the area, if you include the Midtown projects. And I do think that they will be close enough to the convention center...and I think it's something that the BRT line could help with.

I think the problem is that these hotels are still at least several years away from reality...so some of these big conventions are probably just going to skip us until more actually becomes available. So...let's get started, developers. But let's not overbuild.

[Guest]

P2 can chime-in, but I think the key is proximity to the MCC. They want a short walk to the convention center from the hotels. Those out of a small radius probably do not hold as much sway... JMO

[timmay143]

^agree, I think those will fill some gaps, but only the Lower Broad hotel is within walking distance. Proximity is key.

[MLBrumby]

My question is whether currently planned developments might actually start to fill the need for hotels to support the convention center?

For example, if the West End Summit ends up including a hotel (such as an Interncontinental), and the Buckingham project includes lots of meeting space in its rather large hotel space, wouldn't that be 2 out of the 3-4 that are mentioned as being needed? I am guessing that the Lower Broadway hotel will remain rather small - there's so much opposition to the proposed height already that close to Lower Broad. Will these hotels be too far from the convention center to be effective for that purpose?

I'm also kind of puzzling over the comparison to Orlando: I mean are we seriosly wanting to compare Nashville to Orlando with all of the Disney hotels? We'll never catch up to that one. Orlando goes head-to-head with Chicago and Las Vegas for those mega-conventions. And my understanding is that Orlando's hotels are Opryland-style hotels in suburban areas, unless someone tells me that they are all downtown and urban.

Even the comparison to Indianapolis is confusing to me. They have a huge Hilton (dated!) and a Hyatt (also dated!) as well as some other hotels downtown (some nice and new, or renovations of historic buildings), but I don't think that other than two or three that any of them are massive. They have a Conrad (which I would love to get here) and a lot of the usual stuff, a lot of other, smaller or mid-size hotels. So I'm not sure where there are like a half-dozen massive hotels downtown. I travel to Indy to visit family a few times a year, and I can tell you that downtown hotels sell out a lot, but they also will sharply discount rates when the conventions are not in town.

I think that the TIF question is interesting. Could we give it to one developer based on location specifics (like giving it to the Lower Broadway hotel in order to offset the cost of working around historically-protected buildings) but not give it to others, who can purchase a large lot and build unfettered in any of various lots to the south or west or even in select locations to the east or north of the convention center? The TIF question will get tricky for the council members who are up for reelection in 2015, which is not that far away.

The description of the Orlando hotels is true for the most part. The convention center itself is a fair distance from downtown, and the hotels that serve that area along I-4 are very, very large, and very suburban in their vast acreage surrounding them. Now, some of them are quite tall, but again, far from downtown. They really serve that space between the convention center and the theme parks due north and south/southwest. I agree that the comparison to Nashville is not really appropriate.

And it's my understanding that the guidelines for TIF are fairly broad. That is, if a developer applies for it via the standard application, then s/he will get their due process before Metro Council... in which case it goes up for a vote. It's not too complicated from a political standpoint, but I understand it requires a lot to apply for. To be sure, it's used a lot in downtown because of the added costs of building and for the "impact" of the benefits. But I don't believe they are restricted to a specific location. Because it is believed by many to "cost" the public tax revenues, it can be a dicey political matter. That's where the politicians come in.

Edited November 10, 2012 by MLBrumby

[producer2]

Nashville Bound is on the right track. The first thing to understand is 80% of the available convention business will fit into the MCC. Orlando, with its enormous space is still only filling a small portion of their space full time The second thing to understand is that different groups have different socio-economic scenarios just like everything else in life. For example the needs in terms of types of hotels and nightlife are vastly different for a high end medical convention than they are for a group like the Fraternal Order of Eagles. Both are great groups to have but one wants a Ritz and the other wants the Hyatt Place. One wants nightclubs and great restaurants and the other wants Disneyland.

The biggest issue facing the CVB right now is the City's own success in keeping the current rooms booked. Right now the hotels are not hungry for new business because they are full. Even the Omni has broken all pre-opening sales numbers with the bookings that exist. Another 400-500 room 4 star full service hotel combined with the new limited service hotels will create a better scenario for bringing a few more higher end groups to town. This will also help the City attract more corporate headquarters.

The money generated by these investments has so far proven to be fruitful. As we saw on Tuesday, the numbers don't lie......

Edited November 11, 2012 by producer2

[BnaBreaker]

Regarding Indianapolis, they also have this...the world's biggest JW Marriott: