CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Magnolia Park Town Center

[mallguy]

On the Cabela's map, I see Greenville, but it seems to just show Greenville (and other cities such as Macon) to show people in those cities how close they are to the Cabela's store in Georgia- am I missing something?

And re: county government offices at Magnolia Park: why are people seeming to say that they will be a big draw for retail development? Several hundred thousand square feet of office space can maybe attract a few restaurants, but not necessarily big-name or high-end stores. Look at County Square now- it started in the 1980s but never attracted any neighboring retail until the West End was developed in the '90s.

[Chickenwing]

... Look at County Square now- it started in the 1980s but never attracted any neighboring retail until the West End was developed in the '90s.

It still is not attracting anything!! It just happens to be in the way.

[vicupstate]

On the Cabela's map, I see Greenville, but it seems to just show Greenville (and other cities such as Macon) to show people in those cities how close they are to the Cabela's store in Georgia- am I missing something?

And re: county government offices at Magnolia Park: why are people seeming to say that they will be a big draw for retail development? Several hundred thousand square feet of office space can maybe attract a few restaurants, but not necessarily big-name or high-end stores. Look at County Square now- it started in the 1980s but never attracted any neighboring retail until the West End was developed in the '90s.

County Square is surrounded homes, not other retail (the way Magnolia Park is) and is in a low income area. County square is not a retail destination in any sense, that is not the case with Woodruff Road. An office building of any kind presents a 'hostage audience' of folks during a normally 'off peak' shopping time for retail stores. Specifically, lunch time M-F. It presents a nice bonus to an already desireable location.

[mallguy]

County Square is surrounded homes, not other retail (the way Magnolia Park is) and is in a low income area. County square is not a retail destination in any sense, that is not the case with Woodruff Road. An office building of any kind presents a 'hostage audience' of folks during a normally 'off peak' shopping time for retail stores. Specifically, lunch time M-F. It presents a nice bonus to an already desireable location.

True but I think we're overestimating the impact it will have. 300,000 sf or so of office space just isn't a whole lot; maybe a Starbucks and a cafe or the like, in addition to what would otherwise be there, will come, but that tower won't have a huge impact. Certainly the Cheesecake Factory or Nordstrom or whatever big-name tenants are being mentioned won't come because of that tower; it takes a lot more prospective customers and complementary attractions to get more than just a handful of minor tenants to come.

[vicupstate]

True but I think we're overestimating the impact it will have. 300,000 sf or so of office space just isn't a whole lot; maybe a Starbucks and a cafe or the like, in addition to what would otherwise be there, will come, but that tower won't have a huge impact. Certainly the Cheesecake Factory or Nordstrom or whatever big-name tenants are being mentioned won't come because of that tower; it takes a lot more prospective customers and complementary attractions to get more than just a handful of minor tenants to come.

True, it's not the cake, but it is the frosting. Second, there will be residents visiting the building for business too. And isn't 300,000 sq. ft about the equivalent of the Daniel Building? I guessing about a thousand people will be in the building daily for one reason or another. That's a fair number of 'captive' stomachs to fill and lunch hour browsing to boot.

I also think that having mid rises on the site will give it a more 'upscale' appearance and therefore 'draw'. It will help visually and image-wise separate this project from the Shopps at Greenridge and Shops at the Point.

[mallguy]

True, it's not the cake, but it is the frosting. Second, there will be residents visiting the building for business too. And isn't 300,000 sq. ft about the equivalent of the Daniel Building? I guessing about a thousand people will be in the building daily for one reason or another. That's a fair number of 'captive' stomachs to fill and lunch hour browsing to boot.

I also think that having mid rises on the site will give it a more 'upscale' appearance and therefore 'draw'. It will help visually and image-wise separate this project from the Shopps at Greenridge and Shops at the Point.

I think you're right but recall what the Daniel Building has done for downtown retail/restaurants- not much. Even the Chick-fil-A that was in the bottom a few years back went bust.

[linkerjpatrick]

Even the Chick-fil-A that was in the bottom a few years back went bust.

Well, it didn't help they stuck in the dark recesses of a parking garage. I went there maybe once and up till then I was hesitant to go because I wasn't sure I was supposed to be there or not. I sort of figured it was only for building employees or something. You couldn't even see the counter good from the "entrance".

[vicupstate]

I think you're right but recall what the Daniel Building has done for downtown retail/restaurants- not much. Even the Chick-fil-A that was in the bottom a few years back went bust.

The Daniel Building opened as DT was going downhill due to Haywood, et al. Then the building was empty after Flour moved. It is still not even close to fully occupied.

[mallguy]

The Daniel Building opened as DT was going downhill due to Haywood, et al. Then the building was empty after Flour moved. It is still not even close to fully occupied.

These are all good points and are certainly correct. My point is just that 300,000 sf or so of office space, filled with government workers, just isn't going to be a big draw for big-name retailers; the retail/restaurant development due to that office space will be minimal.

[vicupstate]

These are all good points and are certainly correct. My point is just that 300,000 sf or so of office space, filled with government workers, just isn't going to be a big draw for big-name retailers; the retail/restaurant development due to that office space will be minimal.

The developer doesn't think so. He claims he can/will getting more interest based on the Office building being included. The Hotel for one is more interested, and I seem to remember that the calibur of establishments were higher with the office building than without, per the developer.

[g-man430]

These are all good points and are certainly correct. My point is just that 300,000 sf or so of office space, filled with government workers, just isn't going to be a big draw for big-name retailers; the retail/restaurant development due to that office space will be minimal.

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding. The Cheesecake Factory and Apple Store have pretty much already committed to coming to Magnolia Park Town Center. Also, don't forget about the condos this place will have too.

Edited January 25, 2007 by g-man430

[GvilleSC]

The developer is trying to recreate, in a sense, downtown in this development. It will have shopping, dining, a daytime population as well as residential. The combination in my opinion is attractive. Hollywood 20 is the state's highest grossing theater. The traffic is definitely there.

Edited January 25, 2007 by GvilleSC

[g-man430]

The back of the old Palmetto Home and Garden building next to I-385 is now being demolished and the front is not far behind.

[mallguy]

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding. The Cheesecake Factory and Apple Store have pretty much already committed to coming to Magnolia Park Town Center. Also, don't forget about the condos this place will have too.

No, I'm not kidding. Perhaps the Cheesecake Factory and Apple Store have already committed (where's the source on that?), but if they have, it's because of the other activity around Woodruff Road and general demographics of the trade area and because there's no space at Haywood Mall, not because of the draw of the county government offices.

Let me repeat my point yet again: a few hundred thousand square feet of office space (especially county government space, with relatively low-paid employees) is not considered a big enough draw, by itself, to attract big-name retailers or restaurants, and even much larger amounts of office space won't do the trick. Look at Charlotte's downtown, for example: lots of office space there (going on 13 million sf now), for example, but it hasn't led to retail spillover, even with other big attractions in the vicinity.

Also please note the Cheesecake Factory's own site selection criteria (in the links below), requiring "larger metropolitan areas with dense population and above-average household incomes" with generally "populations of at least 250,000 within a five-mile radius and average household incomes between $50,000 and $75,000". I don't think the company will care much that there is a county government tower nearby; the overall demographics of Greenville (in line with the requirements above?) and the availability of space in various Class A developments will play a much larger role.

http://www.rimag.com/archives/2004/09b/for...r-expansion.asp

http://annual.vhostu.com/cheesecake2003/06_01_01.htm

[vicupstate]

No, I'm not kidding. Perhaps the Cheesecake Factory and Apple Store have already committed (where's the source on that?), but if they have, it's because of the other activity around Woodruff Road and general demographics of the trade area and because there's no space at Haywood Mall, not because of the draw of the county government offices.

Let me repeat my point yet again: a few hundred thousand square feet of office space (especially county government space, with relatively low-paid employees) is not considered a big enough draw, by itself, to attract big-name retailers or restaurants, and even much larger amounts of office space won't do the trick. Look at Charlotte's downtown, for example: lots of office space there (going on 13 million sf now), for example, but it hasn't led to retail spillover, even with other big attractions in the vicinity.

Also please note the Cheesecake Factory's own site selection criteria (in the links below), requiring "larger metropolitan areas with dense population and above-average household incomes" with generally "populations of at least 250,000 within a five-mile radius and average household incomes between $50,000 and $75,000". I don't think the company will care much that there is a county government tower nearby; the overall demographics of Greenville (in line with the requirements above?) and the availability of space in various Class A developments will play a much larger role.

http://www.rimag.com/archives/2004/09b/for...r-expansion.asp

http://annual.vhostu.com/cheesecake2003/06_01_01.htm

Uptown Charlotte is not a shopping destination the way Woodruff Road is. No one, not one person, said that an office building would 'by itself' attract these restaurants/retailers. But no one can deny that 1,000 people within walking distance of a restaurant isn't beneficial versus the normal power center configuration. Toss in the hotel(s) and condos and the culmulative affect takes the site to a higher level than without those things. Doing so, opens the site to more parties.

[g-man430]

Uptown Charlotte is not a shopping destination the way Woodruff Road is. No one, not one person, said that an office building would 'by itself' attract these restaurants/retailers. But no one can deny that 1,000 people within walking distance of a restaurant isn't beneficial versus the normal power center configuration. Toss in the hotel(s) and condos and the culmulative affect takes the site to a higher level than without those things. Doing so, opens the site to more parties.

I agree with you 100%.

[mallguy]

Sure, the add-ons make the site better, but I'll go ahead and say with 100% certainty: Apple Store is NOT coming to Magnolia Park.

Looking through the Cheesecake Factory's list of locations, there are a few smaller cities with unenclosed shopping centers that have them, but I'd say it's unlikely for it to come to Magnolia Park, although possible, and the county government tower will not play a role in that. I found just a few unenclosed shopping centers with mid-market stores that also have CFs; the most similar to Magnolia Park and its city would be The Greene in Dayton, Ohio (http://www.thegreene.com).

Edited January 26, 2007 by mallguy

[g-man430]

^^^ I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are. I don't know why you think they aren't.

[g-man430]

Also, didn't the developers say the town center was going to have stores that no other city in South Carolina has? I think they did.

[g-man430]

I thought you guys said the deal of moving county offices over to Magnolia Park Town Center was a done deal. Well, according to the Greenville Journal, it is far from that.

[mallguy]

OK, I am not adding any more items to this discussion, other than this: I was wrong. Due to that county government building and the 1,000 or so highly paid government employees, along with the other retailers already announced or already on the site, Neiman Marcus, Prada, Nordstrom, Tiffany, Cartier, Apple Store, Burberry, Louis Vuitton and the Cheesecake Factory are all coming to Magnolia Park. Oh, or was it the Rooms to Go that's coming that lured those other tenants, or was it the existing Shoe Carnival?

[RestedTraveler]

OK, I am not adding any more items to this discussion, other than this: I was wrong. Due to that county government building and the 1,000 or so highly paid government employees, along with the other retailers already announced or already on the site, Neiman Marcus, Prada, Nordstrom, Tiffany, Cartier, Apple Store, Burberry, Louis Vuitton and the Cheesecake Factory are all coming to Magnolia Park. Oh, or was it the Rooms to Go that's coming that lured those other tenants, or was it the existing Shoe Carnival?

[goodbye]

^^^ I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are. I don't know why you think they aren't.

Is this spoken from an inner desire to see them here, or hard factual information from the mouth of a company owner? We'd all love to know where you received this news.

[g-man430]

I have received word from a very reliable source with the project that the developers are currently in negotiation with the Apple Store and Cheesecake Factory to bring their stores to Magnolia Park Town Center. Nothing is decided yet though, due to the fact that county council hasn't decided yet whether they want to move or not. I should of said i'm 50% sure, because it's not a done deal yet of course.

OK, I am not adding any more items to this discussion, other than this: I was wrong. Due to that county government building and the 1,000 or so highly paid government employees, along with the other retailers already announced or already on the site, Neiman Marcus, Prada, Nordstrom, Tiffany, Cartier, Apple Store, Burberry, Louis Vuitton and the Cheesecake Factory are all coming to Magnolia Park. Oh, or was it the Rooms to Go that's coming that lured those other tenants, or was it the existing Shoe Carnival?

[Greenville]

I thought you guys said the deal of moving county offices over to Magnolia Park Town Center was a done deal. Well, according to the Greenville Journal, it is far from that.

I will be very surprised if county offices are not moved to Magnolia Park. VERY surprised. I'm not denying that some things still need to be ironed out, but based on what I have heard everyone involved really wants to make it happen. They seem to realize, as we have discussed before, how rare and unique an opportunity this is.