New Titans Stadium (60,000 capacity dome, ground level retail, directly east of Nissan Stadium)

[nashmoney]

Very true! 

Nashville is in Tennessee, y'all. When one part of our state grows, the rest grows," Rep. Johnny Shaw, D-Bolivar, said. "I am from West Tennessee, and I have not heard one single person tell me to vote against this project. We were fortunate enough to get Blue Oval. Thank God. They are fortunate enough to get a stadium that will draw people all over the world. Thank God. We keep acting like a bunch of kids who have one more toy than what I got. We have to do what's right for Tennessee whether it's east, middle or west."

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/tennessee-legislature-passes-budget-to-include-deal-for-new-titans-stadium

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by nashmoney

[BnaBreaker]

59 minutes ago, nashmoney said:

Very true! 

Nashville is in Tennessee, y'all. When one part of our state grows, the rest grows," Rep. Johnny Shaw, D-Bolivar, said. "I am from West Tennessee, and I have not heard one single person tell me to vote against this project. We were fortunate enough to get Blue Oval. Thank God. They are fortunate enough to get a stadium that will draw people all over the world. Thank God. We keep acting like a bunch of kids who have one more toy than what I got. We have to do what's right for Tennessee whether it's east, middle or west."

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/tennessee-legislature-passes-budget-to-include-deal-for-new-titans-stadium

 

Amen to that.  

[markhollin]

The Tennessean with info on state lawmakers giving final approval for $500 million funding package:

The state will provide $500 million of the funding through a bond estimated to cost taxpayers $710 million over 20 years.

There were lengthy debates in the House and Senate over the Titans, with many Republicans located in communities outside Nashville opposing the funds. 

But leadership in both chambers supported the funding. 

"When you decide to do a dome type of facility, all of a sudden we go from a football dominated venue to an entertainment dominated venue," said House Speaker Cameron Sexton, R-Crossville. "It only multiplies who it can bring in and what it can do."

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2022/04/21/tennessee-lawmakers-approve-500-m-bonds-new-nfl-stadium-state-budget/7396063001/

[samsonh]

11 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

Amen to that.  

Bna, usually you and I see eye to eye on things, I think taxpayers are getting hosed in this deal. The Titan’s owners are not shelling out cash as some here might believe, they are relying on increases in the tax base on Metro land to pay their portion. They are not liquidating assets as many on here believe. This is worse than the already bad deal NY state just gave the Bills.

 

When they start touting charity work by the players as a reason to build the stadium you know it’s a bad idea.

 

i say all this as a massive Titans fan, the math just makes zero sense.

Edited April 22, 2022 by samsonh

[bwithers1]

1 hour ago, samsonh said:

Bna, usually you and I see eye to eye on things, I think taxpayers are getting hosed in this deal. The Titan’s owners are not shelling out cash as some here might believe, they are relying on increases in the tax base on Metro land to pay their portion. They are not liquidating assets as many on here believe. This is worse than the already bad deal NY state just gave the Bills.

 

When they start touting charity work by the players as a reason to build the stadium you know it’s a bad idea.

 

i say all this as a massive Titans fan, the math just makes zero sense.

The tax base increase on future mixed-use development was originally conceived to pay Metro’s portion of the cost of a stadium renovation. That redirected tax base, the hotel occupancy tax rate increase, and the $500M state bonds predicated upon a dome are all in addition to what Titans would contribute. The real question then becomes how much of a gap would remain, who would pay for that and how. That information is not yet available. 

[titanhog]

It will be interesting to see if the Titans organization actually comes forward with a check for $700 Million…or as Samson says, it’s going to be tax money from the development…or something in between.  Plus…it appears the city is going to have to somehow come up with $800 Million or they’re totally depending on that money to come from development taxes / rent / etc.

[samsonh]

37 minutes ago, bwithers1 said:

The tax base increase on future mixed-use development was originally conceived to pay Metro’s portion of the cost of a stadium renovation. That redirected tax base, the hotel occupancy tax rate increase, and the $500M state bonds predicated upon a dome are all in addition to what Titans would contribute. The real question then becomes how much of a gap would remain, who would pay for that and how. That information is not yet available. 

That’s good to know. I had it wrong then. If they are truly making a 700 million cash contribution I am much more pleased. Will need to see it first.

[smeagolsfree]

Could they incorporate event rental into the overall building fund? If they say there would be x number of events per year, you would think that would generate a tidy amount of income over a 20 or 30 year period.

[lmc123]

I'm not making excuses for the Adams family, but I do think it's worth putting this into context.

A quick google search says Amy Adams Strunk's net worth is around $1.5B. Now, let's talk about annual revenue the team makes. I don't think it's all that much after you account for player salaries, taxes, etc. Check this link out: https://www.forbes.com/teams/tennessee-titans/?sh=73c1a9362d80. So Adams is literally liquidating all of her finances to come up with around $700M. Their net worth is literally tied up in the value of the franchise. Someone tell me where I'm off here? I can't figure it out. Yes, she is a billionaire, but let's talk about  cash flow! It ain't there?!

[samsonh]

16 minutes ago, Logan McCoy said:

I'm not making excuses for the Adams family, but I do think it's worth putting this into context.

A quick google search says Amy Adams Strunk's net worth is around $1.5B. Now, let's talk about annual revenue the team makes. I don't think it's all that much after you account for player salaries, taxes, etc. Check this link out: https://www.forbes.com/teams/tennessee-titans/?sh=73c1a9362d80. So Adams is literally liquidating all of her finances to come up with around $700M. Their net worth is literally tied up in the value of the franchise. Someone tell me where I'm off here? I can't figure it out. Yes, she is a billionaire, but let's talk about  cash flow! It ain't there?!

The team goes up in value by over $100 million a year, the NFL is about to sign massive new TV contracts.  How much of the Adam's contributions are actually NFL grant money?  I promise you she is not liquidating assets to fund this. The wealthy do not sell assets, they take loans! She is not incurring a tax hit to do this. 

[Rick Dalton]

31 minutes ago, Logan McCoy said:

I'm not making excuses for the Adams family, but I do think it's worth putting this into context.

A quick google search says Amy Adams Strunk's net worth is around $1.5B. Now, let's talk about annual revenue the team makes. I don't think it's all that much after you account for player salaries, taxes, etc. Check this link out: https://www.forbes.com/teams/tennessee-titans/?sh=73c1a9362d80. So Adams is literally liquidating all of her finances to come up with around $700M. Their net worth is literally tied up in the value of the franchise. Someone tell me where I'm off here? I can't figure it out. Yes, she is a billionaire, but let's talk about  cash flow! It ain't there?!

You’re correct 

[lmc123]

31 minutes ago, samsonh said:

The team goes up in value by over $100 million a year, the NFL is about to sign massive new TV contracts.  How much of the Adam's contributions are actually NFL grant money?  I promise you she is not liquidating assets to fund this. The wealthy do not sell assets, they take loans! She is not incurring a tax hit to do this. 

How much of the $100M value increase per year is actually tangible? LOL. My house has increased in value but unless I sell that asset I'm not recognizing that value... 

And let's be real. Metro is the landlord for the stadium. The Titans are the tenant. In what world does a tenant put a lot of money into a property they don't own? 

[samsonh]

20 minutes ago, Logan McCoy said:

How much of the $100M value increase per year is actually tangible? LOL. My house has increased in value but unless I sell that asset I'm not recognizing that value... 

And let's be real. Metro is the landlord for the stadium. The Titans are the tenant. In what world does a tenant put a lot of money into a property they don't own? 

That $100 million is tangible in the same way. They can easily go to a big bank and get a loan against the team to finance their portion. As to the second, it is customary for tenants to put money into properties they do not own. Commercial real estate is built on this. 

[Melrose]

3 hours ago, bwithers1 said:

The tax base increase on future mixed-use development was originally conceived to pay Metro’s portion of the cost of a stadium renovation. That redirected tax base, the hotel occupancy tax rate increase, and the $500M state bonds predicated upon a dome are all in addition to what Titans would contribute. The real question then becomes how much of a gap would remain, who would pay for that and how. That information is not yet available. 

Hey Councilman, a few questions for you:

1.  Are you committed to requiring the Titans to actually contribute $700MM in cash ( really, this should be a much much more),  or are you going to allow them to (predictably) comprise this amount of  future revenue redirects that they will presume in the negotiations they are entitled to?

2.  Do you agree that the Titans should be responsible for 100% of cost over runs on the stadium and also 100% responsible to cover any state and Metro bond debt service shortfalls if projected revenues miss at any time down the road?  

3.  On 4/13,  you tweeted that you anticipate that a number of questions will be answered in the coming months, including that we will actually find out  the actual cost of the Titans'  preferred renovations AND the actual cost of the city's obligation under the current lease (which are two different things).   I believe that the Titans and their lobbyists will will go to rather extensive lengths to prevent these items from ever being addressed.   Will you commit that the public will find out these two exact numbers in addition to the dome cost?  

4.   What can Metro do to ensure this "new neighborhood"  ends up being an actual neighborhood,  and not a ghost town full of short-term rental apartment buildings that are only activated every weekend when the next set of bachelorette parties come to town.  

[Bos2Nash]

I know I have been the scratched record on this, repeating myself over and over. But I do have some additional questions to build on what Melrose brought up.

1. If the Titans are actually liquidating assets or even borrowing against their assets, how are they going to get 700 million for the stadium and then realistically turn around and build $4 billion worth of development within a decade?  If they are reliant on the development around the stadium to finance up keep and pay for the debt service on the stadium how are they going to do that when they have no assets to borrow against?
2. @bwithers1, please correct me if I am wrong, but when Nissan was originally built, wasn't the goal/hope that developments would go up around the stadium? In the 23 years (yes Nissan is only 23 years old) since Nissan has opened, we have seen one restaurant (which has now been demolished) and one hotel  (LA Quinta) built in the area. So if the stadium has proven that it cannot generate development around it, why wouldn't we hold the Titans feet to the fire more to ensure they are doing more this time around?
3. $710 million over 20 years to pay off the the $500 million in bonds. I guess the are could fill in fully in the next 20 years, but remediation of sites alone could slow that drive. Also it is cute that the State is fronting the bonds, but really it is still Metro paying those off because won't the bonds will be serviced by the funds from the new special tax district (130 acres)?
4. Who is covering the debt service of all the bonds while the mysterious entertainment district is built out? Does it basically make the stadium a standalone structure where it has to cover all that debt service until things are built out? What happens if even the added revenue of more events doesnt cover the debt service? Would the Titans cover that over and above the $700 million they are paying in? (this is similar to Melrose questions above)

[Melrose]

23 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Who is covering the debt service of all the bonds while the mysterious entertainment district is built out?

YES.  This is a vital question, and one that is being glided right past in a lot of the (very friendly) media coverage being provided by the likes of Axios Nashville and the Tennessean.  There is a temporal problem that is pretending that the entire surrounding district is magically appearing, fully built in 2026 or sooner, which is just not true.   I suspect that we are going to see a lot of funny math come out on this issue.

And completely agreed about the problems with this strange contradiction building, where there are these PR leaks about the poor, courageous Adams family liquidating everything to come up with "$700 MM" , which would mean that they have no liquidity to back up or stand up this overall deal.   Sounds to me like if the Adamses can barely afford to maybe finance the fancy Porsche but wouldn't be able to afford to put gas in it or cover repairs,  then maybe they are just going to have to  put a bit of money into their current used car to get it running acceptably for the long run......

  

[smeagolsfree]

54 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

@bwithers1, please correct me if I am wrong, but when Nissan was originally built, wasn't the goal/hope that developments would go up around the stadium? In the 23 years (yes Nissan is only 23 years old) since Nissan has opened, we have seen one restaurant (which has now been demolished) and one hotel  (LA Quinta) built in the area. So if the stadium has proven that it cannot generate development around it, why wouldn't we hold the Titans feet to the fire more to ensure they are doing more this time around?

I can answer a little of this. The Gerst Haus was relocated to the corner of James Robertson & Interstate Dr and has since closed and been demolished.  Yes, the Laquinta  has been built, along with the rehab of the Bridge building and the events space there. The Sports Authority would not allow anything to be built. There was even a Ferris Wheel proposed over there and Brett can give you the down low on that.

The problem with the East Bank area is that The Sports Authority controls so much land, there has been little incentive to open anything on that side of the river. If there had not been the Oracle announcement, I doubt we would even be seeing the apartments and the other hotel announcement on that side either.  The eyesore of the PSC metal facility is also another reason. Who wants that heap of junk as a neighbor?

I think all of the landowners have been taking a wait and see attitude as no one has wanted to venture there because it is a no mans land. Thats what you got when Metro decided to surround the stadium with acres of parking in a downtown sitting.

We can all blame it on piss poor planning by Metro  & The Sports Authority.

[markhollin]

Titans CEO: History Shows Impact New Stadium Can Have.

More at SI.com here:

https://www.si.com/nfl/titans/news/tennessee-titans-nfl-burke-nihill-new-stadium-50-years

[BnaBreaker]

11 hours ago, samsonh said:

Bna, usually you and I see eye to eye on things, I think taxpayers are getting hosed in this deal. The Titan’s owners are not shelling out cash as some here might believe, they are relying on increases in the tax base on Metro land to pay their portion. They are not liquidating assets as many on here believe. This is worse than the already bad deal NY state just gave the Bills.

 

When they start touting charity work by the players as a reason to build the stadium you know it’s a bad idea.

 

i say all this as a massive Titans fan, the math just makes zero sense.

That was more of an approval of the sentiment that Tennessee's cities shouldn't be fighting one another.

[titanhog]

One thing I can say about this new building.  Whatever they build needs to be something that can be easily updated over the next 50-60 years…not something that will go out of style or is built in a way that update costs are prohibitive.  Keep it simple with amazing “bones” and think longterm.

[Melrose]

On 4/22/2022 at 5:39 PM, markhollin said:

Titans CEO: History Shows Impact New Stadium Can Have.

More at SI.com here:

https://www.si.com/nfl/titans/news/tennessee-titans-nfl-burke-nihill-new-stadium-50-years

Hoo boy,  this writer is carrying a lot of water for the Titans.  To start, not sure who fed him this one:

"Metro Nashville has pledged another $500 million, and the franchise has committed to the rest, which will be upwards of $700 million and could exceed $1 billion." 

Far worse is that the Titans are actually getting any writers to go along with the "economic impact" arguments this time around.  The studies are pretty clear,  especially for second stadiums after a city already has a team, that the economic impact benefit is not there.

 

[PruneTracy]

On 4/22/2022 at 9:48 PM, titanhog said:

One thing I can say about this new building.  Whatever they build needs to be something that can be easily updated over the next 50-60 years…not something that will go out of style or is built in a way that update costs are prohibitive.  Keep it simple with amazing “bones” and think longterm.

That's a pretty spot-on description of the current stadium, but it didn't stop the Titans from wanting a new one. The only question is the "bones" of the Car Hole and as noted previously that's far from settled.

32 minutes ago, Melrose said:

The studies are pretty clear,  especially for second stadiums after a city already has a team, that the economic impact benefit is not there.

To be fair the jump from an open stadium to a dome would probably make an impact. But calculating that impact should be easy as well, just cancel out all the current events the stadium attracts and only count the ones that need a roof.

[markhollin]

Nashville's ability to raise its hotel-motel tax to pay for a new NFL stadium cleared a major hurdle after passing the Tennessee Senate finance committee Tuesday.

The bill would give the Metro Nashville City Council the ability to raise its hotel-motel tax by 1%. A 1% increase could generate an additional $10 million per year to pay for debt on a new enclosed Tennessee Titans stadium. 

Nashville Convention and Visitors Corp. CEO Butch Spyridon said the amount could be closer to $20 million per year if the city's tourism numbers continue at a previous pace.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2022/04/26/nashville-hotel-tax-new-tennessee-titans-stadium/7444373001/

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, markhollin said:

Nashville's ability to raise its hotel-motel tax to pay for a new NFL stadium cleared a major hurdle after passing the Tennessee Senate finance committee Tuesday.

The bill would give the Metro Nashville City Council the ability to raise its hotel-motel tax by 1%. A 1% increase could generate an additional $10 million per year to pay for debt on a new enclosed Tennessee Titans stadium. 

Nashville Convention and Visitors Corp. CEO Butch Spyridon said the amount could be closer to $20 million per year if the city's tourism numbers continue at a previous pace.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2022/04/26/nashville-hotel-tax-new-tennessee-titans-stadium/7444373001/

Glad Bruce Spyridon has continued to say how the tax revenue of the city could pay for a stadium that would increase the financial stability of his corporation, yet we haven't heard how the NCVC is willing to contribute to the financial burden. So frustrating that it seems like we are totally okay to raise taxes for pretty frivolous stuff, yet when we try to touch these things for more serious matters such as education or transit, it is a big no no. To me raising the hotel tax is just kissing away revenue streams for future city improvements.

I know this is not going to be the case, but shouldn't all the money that would be needed to support the stadium come out of the area surrounding the stadium?

From the article:

Quote

House Speaker Cameron Sexton, R-Crossville, said current negotiations have the state contributing $500 million in bonds, the Titans $700 million and the city $700 million. He added that those numbers are only preliminary and there are still several hurdles.

So happy to see this story is now saying that Metro's contribution has jumped an additional $200 million from the SI story posted this past Friday.  This would raise the public investment to $1.2 billion with so far no word on how the debt will be paid back. We can talk about the "special tax district" or the "entertainment district" all we want, but those two things will take YEARS to build out (or a decade in the magical eyes of the Titans) and in the meantime, there is no answer on how that debt will be serviced. 

Mind you, on top of the $700 million public investment in the stadium we are looking at another $75 million to $175 million for the East Bank spine road, plus infrastructure cost (maybe @Deepdish53could tell is if that estimated cost includes any underground infrastructure beyond the roadway?) to support development on the East Bank. Titans are supposedly liquidating to pay for the stadium, how on earth are they going to have any funds/collateral to build (or finance) anything around the stadium?

[titanhog]

1 hour ago, Bos2Nash said:

Titans are supposedly liquidating to pay for the stadium, how on earth are they going to have any funds/collateral to build (or finance) anything around the stadium?