Electric Vehicles

[davidclt]

"No one wants electric vehicles"

North Carolina is going to do the bare minimum for their NEVI implementation and then people will cite that as a reason ("lack of charging") not to pursue EVs. Proving once again my premise that NCDOT sucks. The emphasis below is theirs not mine. . . 

Quote

The N.C. Department of Transportation's GIS Map includes the proposed locations of 11 electric vehicle charging stations for Round 1 funding of the NEVI Program. NCDOT released its GIS map ahead of the Request for Proposal to facilitate planning. 

...

Applicants to the NEVI Program must site proposed charging stations within the designated clusters. There will be one charging station per cluster. 

We're going to add a total of 11 (!) charging stations across the entire state - not a cluster of 11 with 8-10 plugs at each . . . 1-2 plugs at each. Fatal! half! measures! It's like spitting into the wind or pissing in the ocean. This is a choice. I don't know if it's analysis paralysis, apathy or just stupidity? Just to repeat myself we're doing the bare minimum.

For comparison:

Hawaii - 8 stations at two sites
Ohio - 27 stations (round 1), 16 stations (round 2)
Maine - 7 stations (round 1), 5 stations (round 2)
Colorado - 188 stations (!!!) - this is what I was expecting everywhere
Pennsylvania - 35 stations (we could have at least done this, states of similar population and geography)
Alaska - 9 stations
Kentucky - 16 stations

I will add that New York and Ohio have already opened their first NEVI stations while we're just announcing our carefully selected sites for stations in the future.

Edited December 22, 2023 by davidclt
Added NY Ohio note

[KJHburg]

Map of proposed EV charging stations in NC and more to come.  Buc-ees in Mebane will have 20 plus Tesla superchargers.  Some new ones proposed in the metro Charlotte area too. 

New NC map shows proposed sites for EV charging stations (wral.com)

[DMann]

My wife has owned an electric vehicle for 5 1/2 years and we have never had issues finding a place to charge.   Sometimes pre-planning makes that even easier.  

[davidclt]

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Map of proposed EV charging stations in NC and more to come.  Buc-ees in Mebane will have 20 plus Tesla superchargers.  Some new ones proposed in the metro Charlotte area too. 

New NC map shows proposed sites for EV charging stations (wral.com)

I do hope they will update the specification from a Combined Charging System (CCS1) connector to a North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector. Having a standard, universal connector will ensure a more rapid adoption of EVs.

[turbocraig]

Saw my first Vinfast on Monroe Rd and Wendover just now.  I didn’t even know they were on sale yet.  Are they building them here yet?  I didn’t think they were.  It’s bigger than I had expected.  This is the best pic I could get before the light turned. 

 

[smeagolsfree]

My question is what you will do if the power is out for two weeks if there is a hurricane or some other natural disaster that you are unable to charge your EV? With a gasoline powered vehicle, you can always pour gas from a can into your car, and at least get a distance away from the madness. I do not think the grid is up to it yet either. I know Texas is not and the way things are in California where the requirements for EV's are accelerated the grid is already in a mess every time the wind blows. Imagine if you need to outrun a fire and the grid is down and you are on a zero charge.

I really think that there has not been enough thought put into other forms of alternative energy and the tech for EV's is not there yet. The government is trying to force this on the public and there will be backlash at some point. When the majority of American's find out they will no longer be able to buy a gas-powered car or truck there will be panic and retaliation at the voter booth. It is not common knowledge yet what the plan is and how this will be implemented.

I do not think the Biden administration has put the thought into what really needs to be done. As far as the other candidate he can't think past the next issue of Playboy.

My next auto will be a hybrid and not an EV. It will be a couple of years as I own a 2022 model but not too long.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, turbocraig said:

Saw my first Vinfast on Monroe Rd and Wendover just now.  I didn’t even know they were on sale yet.  Are they building them here yet?  I didn’t think they were.  It’s bigger than I had expected.  This is the best pic I could get before the light turned. 

 

Vinfast started doing their first deliveries in the USA in Q1 2023. Leith Auto Group up in Raleigh became the first franchise location for Vinfast and first location on the East Coast in January. Vinfast was recently offering a $249 / mo lease special with $0 down to clear out the 2023 inventory so I'm sure some people from Charlotte went up to Raleigh to buy one. It was one of the cheapest new cars you could buy in the country. The plant won't start building cars until 2025 so any Vinfast right now is fully imported from Vietnam. 

Edited April 3 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

My question is what you will do if the power is out for two weeks if there is a hurricane or some other natural disaster that you are unable to charge your EV? With a gasoline powered vehicle, you can always pour gas from a can into your car, and at least get a distance away from the madness. I do not think the grid is up to it yet either. I know Texas is not and the way things are in California where the requirements for EV's are accelerated the grid is already in a mess every time the wind blows. Imagine if you need to outrun a fire and the grid is down and you are on a zero charge.

I really think that there has not been enough thought put into other forms of alternative energy and the tech for EV's is not there yet. The government is trying to force this on the public and there will be backlash at some point. When the majority of American's find out they will no longer be able to buy a gas-powered car or truck there will be panic and retaliation at the voter booth. It is not common knowledge yet what the plan is and how this will be implemented.

I do not think the Biden administration has put the thought into what really needs to be done. As far as the other candidate he can't think past the next issue of Playboy.

My next auto will be a hybrid and not an EV. It will be a couple of years as I own a 2022 model but not too long.

Gas vehicles are just as prone to problems during disasters, just in different ways. Gas pumps still require power. Gas is still reliant on a pipeline network that is shockingly vulnerable. Your comments about the issues with Electric are perfectly valid, but gas has its own drawbacks that we've just learned to live with.

(My next car will probably be EV or something like a Prius Prime that has a 50 mile battery, but for now I'm happy driving my 2013 prius into the ground. Still kicking at 213k miles with zero mechanical work so far)

[kermit]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

I really think that there has not been enough thought put into other forms of alternative energy and the tech for EV's is not there yet. The government is trying to force this on the public and there will be backlash at some point. When the majority of American's find out they will no longer be able to buy a gas-powered car or truck there will be panic and retaliation at the voter booth. It is not common knowledge yet what the plan is and how this will be implemented.

how exactly are we being 'forced' into buying an EV?

I vividly remember Hurricane Katrina which had no weather effects here, but gas was essentially unavailable in Piedmont NC for 4-5 days during Labor Day weekend. No system is perfect, it is generally better to have alternatives available.

I certainly don't want to promote anything Tesla related but one of Elon's early plans was to combine electric cars with home solar and battery installations so people would be able to suck power from the grid when it was cheap, top off the home battery w solar and have a proverbial gas station at home. Not sure what happened to that.

Back in the 70s my best friend's parents had a hobby farm. They installed an underground tank and purchased farm (untaxed) gas to run their cars from.  They used a hand crank pump, I believe it was 15 turns to the gallon? That was the only time I had seen that in NC (even with folks from bigger farms down east). The dad was a Ph.D. economist (shrug), the farm existed entirely for the property tax break, and for me and my buddy to run amuck on. [I have never felt older than I do right now]

Edited April 3 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Gas vehicles are just as prone to problems during disasters, just in different ways. Gas pumps still require power. Gas is still reliant on a pipeline network that is shockingly vulnerable. Your comments about the issues with Electric are perfectly valid, but gas has its own drawbacks that we've just learned to live with.

(My next car will probably be EV or something like a Prius Prime that has a 50 mile battery, but for now I'm happy driving my 2013 prius into the ground. Still kicking at 213k miles with zero mechanical work so far)

During the Hurricane Hugo period, September 1989, almost every gas station inside the Route 4 circle was without power for days thus no gas. I discovered a station downtown on Brevard near 6th and it had power as all the central business district was protected. Duke must maintain power to their offices, you know. It was attended by a man of at least 60 years. We had attended stations then, not self serve. I was surprised he had gas, not that he had electricity. I guess many others had not thought of the option. 

Where is an uptown gas outlet now?

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Where is an uptown gas outlet now?

Circle K on Graham?

[DMann]

Also, just outside of downtown on Daulton and N Graham.

[smeagolsfree]

19 hours ago, kermit said:

how exactly are we being 'forced' into buying an EV?

I vividly remember Hurricane Katrina which had no weather effects here, but gas was essentially unavailable in Piedmont NC for 4-5 days during Labor Day weekend. No system is perfect, it is generally better to have alternatives available.

I certainly don't want to promote anything Tesla related but one of Elon's early plans was to combine electric cars with home solar and battery installations so people would be able to suck power from the grid when it was cheap, top off the home battery w solar and have a proverbial gas station at home. Not sure what happened to that.

Back in the 70s my best friend's parents had a hobby farm. They installed an underground tank and purchased farm (untaxed) gas to run their cars from.  They used a hand crank pump, I believe it was 15 turns to the gallon? That was the only time I had seen that in NC (even with folks from bigger farms down east). The dad was a Ph.D. economist (shrug), the farm existed entirely for the property tax break, and for me and my buddy to run amuck on. [I have never felt older than I do right now]

The Biden admin wants to total eliminate all gas vehicles by 2050. I really do not think that timeline may be feasible. California and 7 other states are going to prohibit the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. That is a matter of forcing the issue of telling consumers what they must buy in those states. Ford is now cutting production of EV's because no one is buying. The vehicles are much heavier, and they are not as environmentally friendly as they claim with tire wear out the roof and road wear the same. There are all the safety issues as well. The new Rivian Trucks going 60 mph went through 3 guard rails and two concrete barriers before stopping. 

Lots of issues here that have not been resolved that the idiot politicians have not go the brains to understand. "They just think, oh that sounds like a good idea. Let's do it." Don't get me wrong I hate all of the political parties! None of them are doing the jobs they have been elected to do on the local, state or federal level. 

[DMann]

Time to bury your head back in the sand?

[kermit]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:19 AM, smeagolsfree said:

The Biden admin wants to total eliminate all gas vehicles by 2050. I really do not think that timeline may be feasible. 

At the risk of being semantic, banning gas vehicle sales is not the same as ‘forcing people to buy an EV’. Other modes do exist, and many more possibilities will be available a quarter century from now.

What alternative strategy would you suggest for meeting climate goals in the US?

Edited April 5 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

Could someone more knowledgeable than I about electric vehicles enumerate for us the benefits of EV's over traditional internal combustion vehicles?

[kermit]

21 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Could someone more knowledgeable than I about electric vehicles enumerate for us the benefits of EV's over traditional internal combustion vehicles?

Not nearly an expert but here is my ducky-horsy take on it anyway. I am looking forward to being corrected on all this so I can learn more:

Benefits of EVs:

• 20-60% less GHG emissions over internal combustion (accounting for fueling/changing and manufacture). Variation is dependent upon weight of vehicle and (somewhat) on what type of power is used for local grid electricity. [there are lots of different expert analysis of EV emissions out there so I am sure many will take issue with these numbers]
• MANY fewer moving parts (so, in theory, much less maintenance is required)
• Significantly lower 'fuel' costs

Problems with EVs:

• Higher power and weight creates significantly more particulate emissions (mostly tire dust -- i.e. microplastics) -- this is a huge public health problem we are only now becoming aware of
• Range might be an issue for some long distance drivers (although this is a debatable point and very much depends on where you are headed)
• Much worse range in cold weather (due to reduced batter capacity and drain from electric heat)
• Unibody construction / battery installation can lead to VERY high wreck repair costs (super easy to total an EV)

I am currently shopping for a new truck. I considered electric, but need to do some towing and that really clobbers range. The lack of charging infrastructure in the places I need to go (some very isolated places in eastern NC) was also a problem for me. I was all set to get an ICE truck, but decided to wait on the hybrid version of the same truck since it has more power. 

Edited April 5 by kermit

[nicholas]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

At the risk of being semantic, banning gas vehicle sales is not the same as ‘forcing people to buy an EV’. Other modes do exist.

What alternative strategy would you suggest for meeting climate goals in the US?

Not OP but the obvious answer is to stop catering EVERYTHING to cars.  Whether a car is EV or ICE doesn't really matter because both still push a car-based lifestyle.  There are differing negative effects, but the ones from ICEs are much more in your face than EVs.  And since cars are absolutely everywhere, people feel less guilty driving an EV than they do an ICE. 

Automakers will follow the path of least resistance.  Producing EVs reportedly requires a lot more minerals per car (about six times as many) than ICEs, and if the only way for automakers to survive going forward is to build EVs, they will source the necessary materials and metals from regions where it is easier to exploit environmental and human protections, which obviously creates different problems that are much less visible to most consumers.  Corporations have shown repeatedly that they will not do the right thing, particularly when something is way off the radar of the average person.

I will always argue that many people (probably a noticeably large majority of people) largely view driving as a chore and cars as appliances, but are largely trapped in a car-based society, and the automotive industry certainly wants to keep it that way...

Edited April 4 by nicholas

[Vitamin_N]

7 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Could someone more knowledgeable than I about electric vehicles enumerate for us the benefits of EV's over traditional internal combustion vehicles?

The selling point of EVs is that they use lower amounts of greenhouse gases. This point has been overstated unfortunately as many calculations advancing the cause do not adequately account for the cost of everything that goes into the EV. For example, you need a bunch of lithium for those batteries, and mining is dirty work that uses a lot of fossil fuels. And more copper production will be needed to electrify everything and even current levels of copper production are problematic from an environmental perspective. The nation of Panama was recently shut down for weeks over a copper mine protest (here's the link, insert function not working for some reason: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/11/30/panama-celebrates-court-order-to-cancel-mine-even-as-business-is-hit).

That's not to say EVs can't work but the technology and infrastructure are far from ready for prime time. Two things in particular are needed:

(1) lots of nuclear power plants--the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of nuclear dwarfs any other fuel source and its carbon footprint is miniscule compared to any other energy source. EVs are currently mostly powered by coal or natural gas: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_United_States#Electricity_generation)

(2) an order of magnitude breakthrough in energy storage. Chemical batteries won't do the trick, we need solid state electrical storage. This would make electrical cars as well as wind and solar power much more economical and the government wouldn't have to mandate anything.

[smeagolsfree]

I will post articles as I see them.

EVs are way too heavy, says Stellantis CEO (msn.com)

[KJHburg]

On 4/3/2024 at 4:11 PM, videtur quam contuor said:

During the Hurricane Hugo period, September 1989, almost every gas station inside the Route 4 circle was without power for days thus no gas. I discovered a station downtown on Brevard near 6th and it had power as all the central business district was protected. Duke must maintain power to their offices, you know. It was attended by a man of at least 60 years. We had attended stations then, not self serve. I was surprised he had gas, not that he had electricity. I guess many others had not thought of the option. 

Where is an uptown gas outlet now?

there is one gas station inside 277 loop a Circle K I think at N Graham and 10th.  I do remember the massive power outages by Hugo and that is why (and before Hugo I did) always fill up my gas tanks before a hurricane.   

We need to be building a LOT more hybrids before all electric vehicles.  There is not enough electricity to support a switchover as fast some think.  In fact Hyundai with their new mega plant outside of Savannah is adding hybrids to the line instead of being all EVs.

Hyundai may add hybrid production to $7.6 billion Georgia plant (cnbc.com)

13 hours ago, nicholas said:

Not OP but the obvious answer is to stop catering EVERYTHING to cars.  Whether a car is EV or ICE doesn't really matter because both still push a car-based lifestyle.  There are differing negative effects, but the ones from ICEs are much more in your face than EVs.  And since cars are absolutely everywhere, people feel less guilty driving an EV than they do an ICE. 

Automakers will follow the path of least resistance.  Producing EVs reportedly requires a lot more minerals per car (about six times as many) than ICEs, and if the only way for automakers to survive going forward is to build EVs, they will source the necessary materials and metals from regions where it is easier to exploit environmental and human protections, which obviously creates different problems that are much less visible to most consumers.  Corporations have shown repeatedly that they will not do the right thing, particularly when something is way off the radar of the average person.

I will always argue that many people (probably a noticeably large majority of people) largely view driving as a chore and cars as appliances, but are largely trapped in a car-based society, and the automotive industry certainly wants to keep it that way...

But don't you ride your motorcycle a lot?  That is a cage-free ride.  

[Professor]

As I see it, there are advantages and disadvantages as follows: EVs are not as annoying to listen to as those 4-cylinder slow pieces of crap that are slow but sound like LaMans racecars with bad mufflers or manifolds. On the other hand, EVs are silent but deadly. You don't hear them coming. What is the future of vision impaired people crossing streets?  There are plenty of gas stations but very few EV electric hook-ups. Gas propelled cars are more reliable.  Oh yea, there are lots more weirdos that drive EVs (I believe I read that in the Charlotte Observer for which I am not a subscriber), Thats all I have. Good posting smeagolsfree. We need more and cheaper petroleum.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Professor said:

We need more and cheaper petroleum.

Just curious, if you believe this why do you read / post here?

The US is producing more oil now than it has in any point in our history (and more than Saudi Arabia) what exactly would we gain from producing more?  All I see is more sprawl, GHGs, pedestrian fatalities and congestion.

Edited April 5 by kermit

[davidclt]

25 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I will post articles as I see them.

EVs are way too heavy, says Stellantis CEO (msn.com)

Here's a fact, we (meaning everyone in the world) can't keep taking carbon out of the ground and putting it in the air at the rate we have been for the past 150 years. It's not sustainable.

Electric vehicles reduce carbon pollution in all U.S. states » Yale Climate Connections

Additionally, it's rich that Stellantis' CEO (maker of Jeep Grand Wagoneer (6,400 lbs. 14/20 MPG), RAM 1500 (up to 5,400 lbs, 22/32 MPG), RAM 2500 (up to 7,400 lbs, 17/21 MPG), RAM 3500 (up to 7,500 lbs. 12 MPG/Average) is worried about vehicle weight. The lightest Dodge Challenger is 3,841 lbs. A Fiat 500 (also Stellantis) is 3,305 lbs. The most popular EVs currently are Tesla's Model 3 (4,250 lbs.) and Model Y (4,416 lbs.). Most data from Vehicle Weight by Make and Model (carspecs.org)

Electric Vehicles Contribute Fewer Emissions Than Gasoline-Powered Cars Over Their Lifetimes - FactCheck.org

[CLT2014]

The charging infrastructure for homes is one of the biggest barriers to full adoption by 2035 IMO and why 87% of EV owners are white, 75% are men, and ~60% make more than $100,000 per year. A lot of EV drivers live in relatively new houses or they can afford the up front cost of a $5,000+ panel upgrade with dedicated space on their single family property to charge.

We still have significant barriers for middle and lower income households to be afford the upgrades to their home ($5,000 is not easy for the average American), for people that rent, and for people that live in multi-family or don't have dedicated charging spots. Not everybody drives to a white collar office job that would have dedicated EV parking in a garage either.  Many will get left behind as the system evolves to gradually cater to the most affluent. Are EVs a bad thing for those that can afford it to adopt? No. But there should be some empathy towards lower income households that need affordable used vehicles and can't easily upgrade their home + need some time to be able to save to make the switch.

- 48% of Americans report having private off street parking with electrical access
- 34% have private off street parking with no electrical (think condos, apartments, townhomes, et.)
- 9% park on public streets

Some EV owners that don't have access to private off street parking come up with their own DIY methods to charge the cars, but this often works against mobility for walkers, bicyclists, the disabled, elderly, et... All of this is tough challenges around infrastructure that is working ok in one off situations, but at scale could become a mess. Infrastructure is one of the slowest / hardest things for this country to do quickly. Its why all the powerlines are still strung overhead on cheap wood poles. Why we can't build rail transit in a timely and cost efficient manner. Why sidewalks are still missing in tons of neighborhoods, et...

Imagine an entire block where every car was an EV doing this to pedestrians:

Edited April 5 by CLT2014