Electric Vehicles

[DMann]

Thought I would see if there is any interest in talking about this topic.  In a way it relates to all the other issues of growth and development in Charlotte and is something that is coming faster than New Englanders moving to Charlotte.  My wife has owned a Tesla Model 3 for about 3 1/2 years now and while it is the best car we have ever owned we find things out by accident!!!

All the issues like Charging (not a big deal) to Maintenance (none to speak of) to Performance (way cool) to Status (a real head turner) to OTA downloads (fantastic) to Self Driving (not there yet) are some of the things I would like to discuss.  I guess if no one else jumps in I will be lonely, but I believe there are souls out there that have an interest.

[videtur quam contuor]

If you go to Cars of the QC topic here in the Coffee House the most recent conversations are about this very thing.

Edited February 13, 2022 by tarhoosier

[DMann]

I didn't want to clog a specific topic with a tangent.

[Windsurfer]

 

"All the issues like Charging (not a big deal) to Maintenance (none to speak of) to Performance (way cool) to Status (a real head turner) to OTA downloads (fantastic) to Self Driving (not there yet) are some of the things I would like to discuss.  I guess if no one else jumps in I will be lonely, but I believe there are souls out there that have an interest."

 

I sold auto parts all of my life....family business around since 1915, and I'd have to say I agree with everything you wrote. There is practically nothing to go bad on these things. No cooling system, no lubrication,  no engine parts, nothing. Okay, if you let some mice in they might find some of the wiring tasty, but really, even after trying to sell some of the batteries, in the end there wasn't anything a parts guy could offer.  Speaking of batteries, the estimated life time for a battery in the first generation Prius was about five years. Believe it or not, there are still some on the road with original batteries!  If a battery goes bad, it's never the whole 'battery'; it's usually only a cell.  A battery is made up of something like 28 individual fuel cells....often referred to as cartridges.  (FWIW that's the true definition of 'battery'.... a bank of fuel cells). Some of the mechanics are skeptical about changing out a cell when they go bad, but the ones who are doing it find it to be super easy. The later batteries are going to be incredible.

When my wife bought one a couple of years ago I was curious mostly. I'm a believer now. We paid a couple of thousand bucks and had a quick charger installed in the garge, but you know what?  She never has to use it. Chargers are everywhere. In her display on the dash she knows exactly where the chargers are in, say a mile, five miles, 10 miles, etc. Real time, so when we're traveling distances there's no concern about not finding a charging station. On a full charge her 'Leaf' goes about 250 miles.

I also didn't mention that the AC and heating is almost immediate. The acceleration is amazing, and of course it's very quiet and non polluting. Sadly, for my company, I had to shut things down last year. Between low maintenance cars (including ecars), the Amazon effect, and Covid it was impossible. Sad, but that's life. It was a good run.  Anyone need a 150k warehouse at 85 and 77?  (It's under contract but things always go under contract and don't work out)

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Windsurfer
Organization

[CLT2014]

I think what we'll really change the game on electric vehicles are more trucks and SUV options entering the market. People are obsessed with their big boxy cars right now and the top selling vehicle list is dominated by big trucks like the F-series/Ram/Silverado, et.. , affordable SUV's like the CRV/Rav-4/Rogue, et... Too many of the non-Tesla options have been a car that esthetically / size wise is similar to a Honda Civic, but it costs $35,000.

Tesla's SUV price point is out of range for most Americans and then you have car makers like GM.... that came up with the Chevy Bolt... starting at $31,500 and you are driving a compact car that looks just as ugly as the $13,500 Chevy Spark. 

The other thing I'm curious is if anybody has tried going electric that does not have the ability to have a home charger and what's that like... such as only having street parking or being in an apartment complex that doesn't have chargers available. Is coordinating your charging around public chargers a hassle? 
 

Edited February 14, 2022 by CLT2014

[videtur quam contuor]

I had an electrician to my place this month to advise on charging station in an enclosed garage. This is a condominium with attached garage, the best situation. He has a Tesla himself and showed me his phone options for charging and other functions. His car can adapt charging to a range of amperage draw with a click of the phone app or the screen in the car. I assume most full electric vehicles have such options? We have 100 amp household service here as condo owners are assumed to need less expansion options compared to single family owners. Plus the design of the building was 24 years ago. Still, 100 amps is a limited service. If I wanted heated floors in bathrooms and infrared heaters on patio or other devices it would be trouble. My saving grace is that the 50 amp circuit for range is unused as there is an original hob for gas at that location and we went from gas top/electric oven to all gas so that 50 amp circuit is available. Without the 50 amp circuit charging would be limited to off hours or other compromises. 

One thing I learned from his visit is that electric service changes ANYWHERE must require thought about future need. In my case the total electrons entering the panel cannot be changed as it would require rewiring the multi unit building. He did a quick walk through of the home to question possible future applications. This is different than plumbing/water.

Another option is for condo owners to commit to an outdoor charging station at the side of a building. This amenity would be for all and requires association approval. There are no electric vehicle owners in my association at this time. My vehicle purchase is in the future. 

 

(Natural gas service, by the way, has some limitations similar to electricity. Numerous additional gas uses may go beyond the pressure and service line size supplying any residence.)

[Windsurfer]

15 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

 

One thing I learned from his visit is that electric service changes ANYWHERE must require thought about future need. In my case the total electrons entering the panel cannot be changed as it would require rewiring the multi unit building. He did a quick walk through of the home to question possible future applications. This is different than plumbing/water.

 

We just upgraded our house in Oregon to 400 amps from 200 in order to accommodate extra appliances and a quick charger.  Something to consider: most of the time the car doesn't need a quick charger at home as most of the time it stays plugged in all night anyway.  A slower charger that only requires 25-30 amps would be suitable in most situations.

[videtur quam contuor]

My 30 amp circuit is for dryer. Yes, I could schedule charging when not using dryer or other compromise. And maybe should to be certain max load is not approached. The point is that my situation involves compromises. I have a friend who is a home builder who says new custom homes are 400 amp standard, assuming the electric utility allows such service.

[Windsurfer]

25 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

My 30 amp circuit is for dryer. Yes, I could schedule charging when not using dryer or other compromise. And maybe should to be certain max load is not approached. The point is that my situation involves compromises. I have a friend who is a home builder who says new custom homes are 400 amp standard, assuming the electric utility allows such service.

In some ways it's much more efficient.  Just because you have a house rated at 400 amps doesn't mean you'll burn up more electricity. Just means safer and less flickering when something comes on. Fewer circuit breakers tripping.

[DMann]

I also live in a condo and when my wife bought her Model 3 I offered to put in an infrastructure in the building for about $30k and then recoup that money as others wanted the service.  Once I recouped it all I would have ceded it to the HOA.  They weren't interested!!!!!

We have found that while it is inconvenient to not have a home charging option we have no issues charging as there are level 2 chargers pretty readily available.  In the Green Parking Lot by the Ratcliffe Wells Fargo has about 10 level 2 chargers that will provide about 23 miles an hour.  Wells does not charge for it.  Parking on weekends is $5 for the day so we can fill as much as we need for $5.

The thing is that we don't fill up unless we are heading on a trip.  My wife drives about 15 miles a day on average so we keep our battery level between 50 miles of range and 225 miles of range.  My wife's sister lives in Johnson City Tennessee and I did have an 80 amp 220 line installed in her garage just to make it easier.  It is about 180 miles there and thanks to regenerative braking 160 miles back.  We drive through the mountains and it is weird picking up estra miles that way.

On occasion I have plugged in to a 110 outlet.  It charges about 5 miles an hour depending on the extension cord being used.  So overnight, from 8 pm to 8 am we can get around 60 miles.  I would be happy if my HOA would allow me to plug in to a 110 outlet but nope!

[videtur quam contuor]

55 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

In some ways it's much more efficient.  Just because you have a house rated at 400 amps doesn't mean you'll burn up more electricity. Just means safer and less flickering when something comes on. Fewer circuit breakers tripping.

This is at the edge of my knowledge but irrespective of the convenience for the electricity user the electricity supplier must be prepared to deliver 400 amps max load to your location 24/7. We are fortunate to live in an area where electricity has been available without much concern for supply since the beginning of utility existence. That is not true in every location. This may be a limiting factor when (say) 50% of homes have electric vehicles. Someone with knowledge about this issue is welcome to reply.

[Windsurfer]

5 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

This is at the edge of my knowledge but irrespective of the convenience for the electricity user the electricity supplier must be prepared to deliver 400 amps max load to your location 24/7. We are fortunate to live in an area where electricity has been available without much concern for supply since the beginning of utility existence. That is not true in every location. This may be a limiting factor when (say) 50% of homes have electric vehicles. Someone with knowledge about this issue is welcome to reply.

Our home in Oregon is in a very rural area. There was never any issue with being able to provide 400 amps to the house. In fact, the transformer that's being used still has to be stepped down in order to provide that potential. FWIW.

[DMann]

here is an article discussing driving habits to positively affect range:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/14/how-you-can-increase-range-when-youre-driving-an-ev/

 

[CLT Development]

On 2/14/2022 at 10:21 AM, Windsurfer said:

 

"All the issues like Charging (not a big deal) to Maintenance (none to speak of) to Performance (way cool) to Status (a real head turner) to OTA downloads (fantastic) to Self Driving (not there yet) are some of the things I would like to discuss.  I guess if no one else jumps in I will be lonely, but I believe there are souls out there that have an interest."

 

I sold auto parts all of my life....family business around since 1915, and I'd have to say I agree with everything you wrote. There is practically nothing to go bad on these things. No cooling system, no lubrication,  no engine parts, nothing. Okay, if you let some mice in they might find some of the wiring tasty, but really, even after trying to sell some of the batteries, in the end there wasn't anything a parts guy could offer.  Speaking of batteries, the estimated life time for a battery in the first generation Prius was about five years. Believe it or not, there are still some on the road with original batteries!  If a battery goes bad, it's never the whole 'battery'; it's usually only a cell.  A battery is made up of something like 28 individual fuel cells....often referred to as cartridges.  (FWIW that's the true definition of 'battery'.... a bank of fuel cells). Some of the mechanics are skeptical about changing out a cell when they go bad, but the ones who are doing it find it to be super easy. The later batteries are going to be incredible.

When my wife bought one a couple of years ago I was curious mostly. I'm a believer now. We paid a couple of thousand bucks and had a quick charger installed in the garge, but you know what?  She never has to use it. Chargers are everywhere. In her display on the dash she knows exactly where the chargers are in, say a mile, five miles, 10 miles, etc. Real time, so when we're traveling distances there's no concern about not finding a charging station. On a full charge her 'Leaf' goes about 250 miles.

I also didn't mention that the AC and heating is almost immediate. The acceleration is amazing, and of course it's very quiet and non polluting. Sadly, for my company, I had to shut things down last year. Between low maintenance cars (including ecars), the Amazon effect, and Covid it was impossible. Sad, but that's life. It was a good run.  Anyone need a 150k warehouse at 85 and 77?  (It's under contract but things always go under contract and don't work out)

 

This was an incredible post!

[SouthEndCLT811]

For those with EV's how do you cope with longer road trips?  Any examples through WV?  I'm a novice in my understanding but this thread partially inspired me to look into it a bit more legitimately.  One drawback of going EV that I see is say I were interested in a Rivian R1S with 316 mile range.. Traveling to see family in Ohio we seem to have a "dead zone" of Level 3 chargers in WV.  So I feel like I'd love to get into the EV world but any time we'd travel north we may have to pull off for an hour or two to recharge somewhere between Charleston, WV and Parkersburg?  It just makes a long trip even longer.  Again maybe it's my misunderstanding on the speed of chargers and how long we'd really have to pull off at a Level 2 to recharge.  So any example would be helpful!

I'm just at the point on paying off a Jeep where I could either jump in to the EV world or say trade in now and maybe get a 4 year loan on another Jeep and reassess the situation at that time.

Edited February 25, 2022 by SouthEndCLT811

[DMann]

With the speed of EV adoption, I would suggest that purchasing a gas powered vehicle is not a good investment.  I can't speak for Rivian, but with Tesla the car will guide you to charging stations along the route and tell you how much you should charge at each station.  This is important because the fuller your battery gets the slower it charges.  My wife's Tesla has a 316 mile range but it charges faster between 60 - 200 miles.   More frequent but shorter stops makes the travel time easier.    Also, instead of driving for 5 hours you would break up your time tor charging and refreshing, pit stops, etc.  

Check with Rivian to see how they suggest long trips.  Also see if you have self charging options.   My wife's car came with a 110, 220, adaptor as well as a converter for charging at Blink, EV Go, ChargePoint, etc.  Do more research and buy electric!!!!!

[SouthEndCLT811]

19 minutes ago, DMann said:

With the speed of EV adoption, I would suggest that purchasing a gas powered vehicle is not a good investment.  I can't speak for Rivian, but with Tesla the car will guide you to charging stations along the route and tell you how much you should charge at each station.  This is important because the fuller your battery gets the slower it charges.  My wife's Tesla has a 316 mile range but it charges faster between 60 - 200 miles.   More frequent but shorter stops makes the travel time easier.    Also, instead of driving for 5 hours you would break up your time tor charging and refreshing, pit stops, etc.  

Check with Rivian to see how they suggest long trips.  Also see if you have self charging options.   My wife's car came with a 110, 220, adaptor as well as a converter for charging at Blink, EV Go, ChargePoint, etc.  Do more research and buy electric!!!!!

Appreciate the feedback!  Yeah I only mentioned Rivian because I have been spoiled by an SUV and didn't really like the look of the  Tesla X.  A friend has a Rivian on preorder and was discussing it with him briefly.  Also part of life but as family/parents get older in Ohio need the space for moving or bringing belongings to Charlotte.

[Windsurfer]

2 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

For those with EV's how do you cope with longer road trips?  Any examples through WV?  I'm a novice in my understanding but this thread partially inspired me to look into it a bit more legitimately.  One drawback of going EV that I see is say I were interested in a Rivian R1S with 316 mile range.. Traveling to see family in Ohio we seem to have a "dead zone" of Level 3 chargers in WV.  So I feel like I'd love to get into the EV world but any time we'd travel north we may have to pull off for an hour or two to recharge somewhere between Charleston, WV and Parkersburg?  It just makes a long trip even longer.  Again maybe it's my misunderstanding on the speed of chargers and how long we'd really have to pull off at a Level 2 to recharge.  So any example would be helpful!

I'm just at the point on paying off a Jeep where I could either jump in to the EV world or say trade in now and maybe get a 4 year loan on another Jeep and reassess the situation at that time.

Try "Plugshare.com".  Free map and shows plenty of chargers along the way.

[slipperypete]

2 hours ago, DMann said:

With the speed of EV adoption, I would suggest that purchasing a gas powered vehicle is not a good investment.  I can't speak for Rivian, but with Tesla the car will guide you to charging stations along the route and tell you how much you should charge at each station.  This is important because the fuller your battery gets the slower it charges.  My wife's Tesla has a 316 mile range but it charges faster between 60 - 200 miles.   More frequent but shorter stops makes the travel time easier.    Also, instead of driving for 5 hours you would break up your time tor charging and refreshing, pit stops, etc.  

Check with Rivian to see how they suggest long trips.  Also see if you have self charging options.   My wife's car came with a 110, 220, adaptor as well as a converter for charging at Blink, EV Go, ChargePoint, etc.  Do more research and buy electric!!!!!

I'm in a similar situation - close to being in the market for a new vehicle, but pure EV just doesn't suit our needs very well. We don't use the vehicle very much week to week (no commute, we walk and bus as much as we drive places), but then we take a few long road trips each year (2x 1000+ mile and 1-2 that are 3000+), often to very remote areas. So the mega-range EV doesn't make sense most weeks, but even if we had it we would spend hours on a trip waiting for a charge. 

Feeling like a plug-in hybrid with a good EV range makes more sense for us as a bridge to a more convenient EV infrastructure and better battery tech in the future.  Something like the Toyota Rav4 Prime or Hyundai Tucson plug-in hybrids are most interesting to me right now. The each have ~40 mile range on battery alone, which is more than enough for our typical week-to-week use. We shouldn't need to burn any gas except a few times per year in addition to those long trips. Plus it would mean a smaller (and hopefully cheaper) battery pack to replace in the future when that is needed. 

[tozmervo]

I plan to drive my Prius into the ground and see what the market is like then. I won't loose sleep if I end up with another Prius (new models are north of 50 MPG). I do know someone here with a plug-in hybrid, and he said the only time gas is burned is when he leaves Mecklenburg County.

[deleted account]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I plan to drive my Prius into the ground and see what the market is like then. I won't loose sleep if I end up with another Prius (new models are north of 50 MPG). I do know someone here with a plug-in hybrid, and he said the only time gas is burned is when he leaves Mecklenburg County.

Just hit 200K in mine and it's still going strong. 

[davidclt]

9 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

For those with EV's how do you cope with longer road trips?  Any examples through WV?  I'm a novice in my understanding but this thread partially inspired me to look into it a bit more legitimately.  One drawback of going EV that I see is say I were interested in a Rivian R1S with 316 mile range.. Traveling to see family in Ohio we seem to have a "dead zone" of Level 3 chargers in WV.  So I feel like I'd love to get into the EV world but any time we'd travel north we may have to pull off for an hour or two to recharge somewhere between Charleston, WV and Parkersburg?  It just makes a long trip even longer.  Again maybe it's my misunderstanding on the speed of chargers and how long we'd really have to pull off at a Level 2 to recharge.  So any example would be helpful!

I'm just at the point on paying off a Jeep where I could either jump in to the EV world or say trade in now and maybe get a 4 year loan on another Jeep and reassess the situation at that time.

Here's a *great* resource for trip plans (for charging and everything): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ (pick your car, pick your parameters and see where to charge and how long it will take)

Here's a link for a Rivian R1T 180 from Charlotte departing at 9 a.m. with a 90% charge to Cleveland (6:45 p.m. arrival): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=367aa7be-eecf-4ca5-91db-cbf2114b4ec1

Only two stops, one around lunch and one around mid-afternoon.

[SouthEndCLT811]

2 hours ago, davidclt said:

Here's a *great* resource for trip plans (for charging and everything): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ (pick your car, pick your parameters and see where to charge and how long it will take)

Here's a link for a Rivian R1T 180 from Charlotte departing at 9 a.m. with a 90% charge to Cleveland (6:45 p.m. arrival): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=367aa7be-eecf-4ca5-91db-cbf2114b4ec1

Only two stops, one around lunch and one around mid-afternoon.

Thanks so much!

[Matthew.Brendan]

 

how about electric bikes?

[DMann]

Sometimes it is frightening to read some articles written with little evidence of fact or reference.  This article is totally full of assumptions and mis-information.  https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicles-cost-more-per-mile-range-than-gas-cars-2022-2

I track my electricity purchases each month something I started 5 months ago.  I take the monthly electric costs divided by the miles driven.  I come up with an average of $0.06 per mile.  Keep in mind, a gallon of gas costs about $3,35 at any hour of the day.  Electric costs vary based on a graph called "the Duck Curve"  Before 8 am and after 8 pm electricity costs are lower than during peak hours in the day.  While it may be inconvenient, pre-planning can do wonders to reduce your energy costs.  Also, many places will allow charging for free,  Publix offers EV charging as does Whole Foods.  Additionally, The Green parking garage has free charging stations.  Granted these are level 2 chargers and charge at about 23 miles per hour but free electricity is free electricity.  Gas providers do a similar thing, think Costco and Harris Teeter.

My point is when you see articles like the one I referenced above it creates fear and indecision as to move forward with an EV purchase.  

And to address the above post about electric bikes I must tell you that I purchased a NIU Chinese moped style scooter over 2 years ago.  It is not fast, may be 30 miles per hour, and the range is not great, maybe 50 miles on a full charge, but it is fun.  The battery comes out of the unit and I bring it into my condo to plug in to a standard 110v outlet.  For getting around in and near town is is great.