Electric Vehicles

[grodney]

Well, pretty frustrating so far trying to buy an EV.  We're not going to pay SUV prices for a Kia or a Hyundai or a VW......as if we could get one or even test drive one.  And now, after many contacts to many dealers, I can't even find a Leaf or a Bolt to test-drive, let alone buy.  Nobody has any.  At all.  How am I supposed to know if I want a Leaf or a Bolt or a Model 3 if I can't even see them?

[videtur quam contuor]

Friend in Western Kentucky bought a Leaf in DC and drove it home without seeing it prior to purchase. Had to detour through Va and Tn because W Va and Eastern Ky charging facilities were inadequate, (in his opinion).

[JHart]

12 hours ago, grodney said:

Well, pretty frustrating so far trying to buy an EV.  We're not going to pay SUV prices for a Kia or a Hyundai or a VW......as if we could get one or even test drive one.  And now, after many contacts to many dealers, I can't even find a Leaf or a Bolt to test-drive, let alone buy.  Nobody has any.  At all.  How am I supposed to know if I want a Leaf or a Bolt or a Model 3 if I can't even see them?

Welcome to the South. Most companies don't bother sending stock to the region unless you order them, inventory is focused on NE and W. Seems very odd you're willing to look at Nissan and GM but not Kia/Hyundai/VW... Build quality on those 3 far outclasses domestics and Nissan, and most of their current EVs are crossover SUVs anyways. 

[grodney]

7 hours ago, JHart said:

Seems very odd you're willing to look at Nissan and GM but not Kia/Hyundai/VW... Build quality on those 3 far outclasses domestics and Nissan, and most of their current EVs are crossover SUVs anyways. 

Not odd at all......I'd LOVE to have one of those from Kia/Hyundai/VW.....but they're too expensive.  CAN we afford it?  Yes.  Are we willing to?  No.  (Plus, I did check into those, and none of them were available either.)  If I've got the pricing wrong, let me know......but I talked price with VW even though they didn't have any....and it wasn't even in the ballpark of the Leafs and Bolts (and still way more than a Model 3).  Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited July 15, 2022 by grodney

[JHart]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:04 PM, grodney said:

Not odd at all......I'd LOVE to have one of those from Kia/Hyundai/VW.....but they're too expensive.  CAN we afford it?  Yes.  Are we willing to?  No.  (Plus, I did check into those, and none of them were available either.)  If I've got the pricing wrong, let me know......but I talked price with VW even though they didn't have any....and it wasn't even in the ballpark of the Leafs and Bolts (and still way more than a Model 3).  Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Got it, I read your previous comment that you didn't think they were worth it because of the brand name; not just pricing in general. For the price, it will be very tough to beat a Bolt EUV. The original Bolt is very, very small; the EUV is just large enough to put it into regular car consideration territory. The Model 3 is the most expensive option of any of those by close to $10k. It looks like base model is now pushing $47k without governmental incentives. Kia EV6 and VW ID.4 are both around $42/43k but you'll get $7,500 from the government as an incentive which brings them just barely above hybrid crossover pricing as cars go these days. Both of those will have a big interior upgrade over the Bolt/Leaf; my personal opinion is that VW makes the best budget interiors of any auto manufacturer. 

[grodney]

On 7/18/2022 at 7:26 AM, JHart said:

Got it, I read your previous comment that you didn't think they were worth it because of the brand name; not just pricing in general. For the price, it will be very tough to beat a Bolt EUV. The original Bolt is very, very small; the EUV is just large enough to put it into regular car consideration territory. The Model 3 is the most expensive option of any of those by close to $10k. It looks like base model is now pushing $47k without governmental incentives. Kia EV6 and VW ID.4 are both around $42/43k but you'll get $7,500 from the government as an incentive which brings them just barely above hybrid crossover pricing as cars go these days. Both of those will have a big interior upgrade over the Bolt/Leaf; my personal opinion is that VW makes the best budget interiors of any auto manufacturer. 

Thanks for that insight and experience.  I appreciate the help as we continue on!  Definitely frustrated with the lack of availability, but will keep trying.

You mention you get 7500 for Kia or VW........do you not get that with Bolt or Leaf?

[JHart]

41 minutes ago, grodney said:

Thanks for that insight and experience.  I appreciate the help as we continue on!  Definitely frustrated with the lack of availability, but will keep trying.

You mention you get 7500 for Kia or VW........do you not get that with Bolt or Leaf?

The Nissan Leaf yes, the Bolt no. The original tax incentive was for the first 200,000 cars by each manufacturer and so far GM and Tesla hit them in previous years and Toyota hit their goal this year which means a reduced benefit next year and drop off after that. Other states have incentives, but nothing in NC. You won't even get HOV status here in NC for an electric vehicle and I think most people saw the absurd law they were trying to pass about electric vehicle chargers. 

Part of the infrastructure bill included additional tax incentives for electric vehicles made by union labor; so there is some outside potential of the Bolt incentive coming back in the future but I wouldn't hold my breath.  

[KJHburg]

saw my 2nd Rivian truck this week.  This one at the airport charging.  Saw the other one on the beach in Currituck County in the 4x4 off road area. 

[DMann]

Possible solution for not only home use but also multi-family charging access.

https://electrek.co/2022/07/27/siemens-home-ev-charger-adapter/

 

[nicholas]

Given the regulatory push towards electrification, and the reality that people are overwhelmingly buying trucks and SUVs over smaller passenger vehicles, what are everyone's thoughts of of the shockingly high curb weights seen on a number of recent electrics?  Trucks in particular are already heavy vehicles, but the F150 Lightning weighs in over 6800 pounds and the smaller Rivian R1T somehow crests 7000.   The new Hummer electric truck is a truly staggering 9,600 pounds and is also an absolute rocket in a straight line.  On the other side of that coin, braking distances are getting pretty ridiculous in the wrong direction due to so much weight, and it concerns me that my vehicles will handily out-brake something of that stature.  In fact I'm almost certain that my motorcycle, which has much less absolute stopping ability than any modern car, would stoppie to a halt long before the Rivian behind me.  I wouldn't ever want to be run into by another car,  but I would definitely rather be hit by a 2400 lb Miata than one of those monsters...

[davidclt]

9 hours ago, nicholas said:

Given the regulatory push towards electrification, and the reality that people are overwhelmingly buying trucks and SUVs over smaller passenger vehicles, what are everyone's thoughts of of the shockingly high curb weights seen on a number of recent electrics?  Trucks in particular are already heavy vehicles, but the F150 Lightning weighs in over 6800 pounds and the smaller Rivian R1T somehow crests 7000.   The new Hummer electric truck is a truly staggering 9,600 pounds and is also an absolute rocket in a straight line.  On the other side of that coin, braking distances are getting pretty ridiculous in the wrong direction due to so much weight, and it concerns me that my vehicles will handily out-brake something of that stature.  In fact I'm almost certain that my motorcycle, which has much less absolute stopping ability than any modern car, would stoppie to a halt long before the Rivian behind me.  I wouldn't ever want to be run into by another car,  but I would definitely rather be hit by a 2400 lb Miata than one of those monsters...

The range of curb weight for a gasoline powered F150 ranges from 4,121 to 5,540 add 200-300 lbs. of gasoline and you're within striking distance of the Lightning's 6,171 (to 6,590) curb weight. I agree it is a lot of mass to stop. It seems like GM made decisions to make the Hummer heavier (I will say it is too much truck but I expect no less for GM making something to appeal to a certain demographic, a Venn diagram that overlaps with Challenger/Charger and RAM truck buyers I would imagine - people with an ego to feed) - lots of welded steel where extruded or cast aluminum would have made more sense - I'm sure it was to save a nickel. Overall though, I agree with you about the insane size and weight of vehicles overall.

Edited June 1, 2023 by davidclt
Clarity

[Matthew.Brendan]

Recently rented a Chevy Bolt EUV to drive back from ATL to CLT and found it to be really great. First time driving a pure EV and the overall performance was fantastic.

Had it over the weekend and charged it once at a mall parking lot which had free chargers but were slow, and then a second time at a fast charger where it took about an hour and $12 to charge up to 80-85% from about 30%

[nicholas]

9 hours ago, davidclt said:

The range of curb weight for a gasoline powered F150 ranges from 4,121 to 5,540 add 200-300 lbs. of gasoline and you're within striking distance of the Lightning's 6,171 (to 6,590) curb weight. I agree it is a lot of mass to stop. It seems like GM made decisions to make the Hummer heavier (I will say it is too much truck but I expect no less for GM making something to appeal to a certain demographic, a Venn diagram that overlaps with Challenger/Charger and RAM truck buyers I would imagine - people with an ego to feed) - lots of welded steel where extruded or cast aluminum would have made more sense - I'm sure it was to save a nickel. Overall though, I agree with you about the insane size and weight of vehicles overall.

Yeah, but it crab walks.

I've never been a truck person but I guess I hadn't really paid super close attention to how enormous they've gotten.  The current generation trucks are just ridiculously huge.  I drive a European coupe and the difference is glaring, like I cannot even see onto the hood of any new 1500 class truck from my driver's seat.  And that's with those at the stock ride height, not even riding on a lifted suspension.  Not to mention the passenger compartments that are now larger than the beds on almost every new truck sold in America, making for bestselling vehicles than barely fit within most parking spots.  And why do we have 700+ horsepower Rams?  Don't get me wrong I love speed, but like...it's a giant heavy ass truck that can't keep up with any mildly sporty car on a curvy road.  Idk I know they have their use, but I so rarely ever see trucks actually being used as trucks until you get into the HD segment with F250s and the like, which I would argue is way overkill for most situations anyway. 

Honestly I wouldn't mind having a Tacoma as a second vehicle because there are situations where I need the utility that it offers, but I don't think Toyota even makes the configuration I want anymore (2 dr single cab with V6 and six speed manual).

Edited June 1, 2023 by nicholas

[Take2]

NCDOT EV REGISTRATION GROWTH BY COUNTY

NCDOT has released Mar 2023 EV registrations for each county. 

Below in descending order are the top 10 counties based on total # of EV registrations.

I feel sure someone in the group is a  Data Specialist and will break it down even more for us?!? I have a 1000 opinions about what the rankings may be telling us.

Wake-11,909

Meck-7,931

Durham-2,412

Buncombe-1987

Guilford-1851

Orange-1770

Union-1649

Cabarrus-1208

Forsyth-1,037

New Hanover-998

Edited June 5, 2023 by Take2

[a2theb]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:31 PM, nicholas said:

Yeah, but it crab walks.

I've never been a truck person but I guess I hadn't really paid super close attention to how enormous they've gotten.  The current generation trucks are just ridiculously huge.  I drive a European coupe and the difference is glaring, like I cannot even see onto the hood of any new 1500 class truck from my driver's seat.  And that's with those at the stock ride height, not even riding on a lifted suspension.  Not to mention the passenger compartments that are now larger than the beds on almost every new truck sold in America, making for bestselling vehicles than barely fit within most parking spots.  And why do we have 700+ horsepower Rams?  Don't get me wrong I love speed, but like...it's a giant heavy ass truck that can't keep up with any mildly sporty car on a curvy road.  Idk I know they have their use, but I so rarely ever see trucks actually being used as trucks until you get into the HD segment with F250s and the like, which I would argue is way overkill for most situations anyway. 

Honestly I wouldn't mind having a Tacoma as a second vehicle because there are situations where I need the utility that it offers, but I don't think Toyota even makes the configuration I want anymore (2 dr single cab with V6 and six speed manual).

Even the new tacomas are huge. I drive a second gen long bed access cab and I am always caught off guard when I park next to a third gen and realize how much bigger it is. There really isnt a good light duty truck available anymore which is a shame and is going to make me hold on to this truck as long as I possibly can.

 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

Kei trucks:

https://boekiusa.com/

Kei cars have long been popular in Japan as the lowest cost vehicle for sale. Engine size is capped at 660 cc and taxed at lowest rate. The truck equivalent is popular in the US for states that allow them. 

[Poo Diddy]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:18 AM, a2theb said:

Even the new tacomas are huge. I drive a second gen long bed access cab and I am always caught off guard when I park next to a third gen and realize how much bigger it is. There really isnt a good light duty truck available anymore which is a shame and is going to make me hold on to this truck as long as I possibly can.

This hits spot on for me.  I had an '02 Tacoma long bed, access cab.  It was small enough to be easy to park, fit on mountain roads & down tight off road stretches.  I now have a hatchback as the DD and a 2011 full size longbed 2500 series truck as the tow pig.  I'd absolutely love a small truck/suv again for off road adventures, but a new Tacoma is only 4-5" smaller width than the 2500.  The '02 was almost a foot.   My theory is this the size difference is part of what has been driving the cost of older Tacomas/4runners through the roof.  

...and don't even get me started on the ridiculously high hoods on the new trucks.  My 2011 2500 comes to my shoulder.  American truck designers are on record saying it's to make them look "manly".  IDGAF about my truck looking manly.  I want to be able to see the person/car/cow/tree/rock/gate post that I'm about to hit.  Can't do that when you can't see the first 10' in front of the truck!  I don't like regulations driving vehicle design (car size inflation is all due to MPG targets), but something has to be done about the sight lines on trucks/SUVs ASAP.  A camera in the front is not an acceptable alternative in my book.

[CLT2014]

Anybody know if big rebates are available for the infrastructure to go electric at your home? My house would require a full breaker panel upgrade unfortunately... have gotten quotes in the thousands so will be sticking with an ICE vehicle for now. I see $1,110 credit via Duke Energy... but I'd still be out of pocket several grand.

I think I get why largely (not exclusively) the affluent have been able to cut over to EVs. The upfront costs for households that don't live in brand new homes optimized for an EV charging port is pretty staggering (or renting in a new lux apartment with charging). Upgrading homes older than the 90's seems like it would be especially rough. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by CLT2014

[DMann]

It is truly interesting to watch the transition of vehicles from Fossil Fuels to Electricity.  Regardless of what you think of Musk he envisioned a transition to be keyed on developing a charging system that would inspire confidence in the ability to drive almost anywhere with little worries of getting recharged.  He put an incredible investment in the stations over the product to allow that to happen.  I recall in 2018 that almost all stations I stopped at were less than half full, though all equipment was functional.  As Tesla owns all the stations the maintenance and upgrades are incredible.  I have seen ridiculous numbers citing almost total uptime for the stations.  Other Charging companies like ChargePoint, EV America, etc. sell their stations to a local company and the maintenance falls far short.

The expansion and adoption of the NACS as defacto standards for the industry will give any manufacturer the confidence that their vehicles can easily find existing (and continually expanding) charging stations.  This will speed up the adoption of all manufacturers to ramp up production and delivery of more EV's. Musk has always said that his goal is to pave the way for a reduction of need for an unsustainable source for an unlimited source of power.  As a result of other manufacturers using his network Tesla is now becoming the "oil industry", providing all the power needed.

A recent move for my wife and I have required us to get a 2nd car, another Tesla.  As we have a single family home now I have installed a Tesla home charger and life is pretty wonderful.

If you are on the fence, don't hesitate, go electric.

[davidclt]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:27 AM, DMann said:

It is truly interesting to watch the transition of vehicles from Fossil Fuels to Electricity.  Regardless of what you think of Musk he envisioned a transition to be keyed on developing a charging system that would inspire confidence in the ability to drive almost anywhere with little worries of getting recharged.  He put an incredible investment in the stations over the product to allow that to happen.  I recall in 2018 that almost all stations I stopped at were less than half full, though all equipment was functional.  As Tesla owns all the stations the maintenance and upgrades are incredible.  I have seen ridiculous numbers citing almost total uptime for the stations.  Other Charging companies like ChargePoint, EV America, etc. sell their stations to a local company and the maintenance falls far short.

The expansion and adoption of the NACS as defacto standards for the industry will give any manufacturer the confidence that their vehicles can easily find existing (and continually expanding) charging stations.  This will speed up the adoption of all manufacturers to ramp up production and delivery of more EV's. Musk has always said that his goal is to pave the way for a reduction of need for an unsustainable source for an unlimited source of power.  As a result of other manufacturers using his network Tesla is now becoming the "oil industry", providing all the power needed.

A recent move for my wife and I have required us to get a 2nd car, another Tesla.  As we have a single family home now I have installed a Tesla home charger and life is pretty wonderful.

If you are on the fence, don't hesitate, go electric. 

Four years ago, I took the leap to electric. I live in a condo where at best, I can charge from the wall (120v Level 1 (L1) charging adds 3-5 MPH to the battery) so I'm at the mercy of the Tesla SuperCharger network (400-800v DC charging Level 3 (L3) - battery from 0-80% in 20ish minutes - 50 MPH +/-), public Level 2 (220-240v AC (L2)) charging (adds 25-30 MPH), the EvGo at Food Lion on Tuckasegee (L3) for most of my charging. Four years in, absolutely no ragrets and wishing I had done it sooner. I do believe Tesla opening their network is going to (ahem) inspire/encourage (read force) Electrify America (VW's Dieselgate penance - and it shows by their indifference towards running a reliable network), EvGo, ChargePoint, Volta and Shell Recharge to up their game. If 95% of your trips are less than 200 miles at a time, you'll leave the house every day with a full "tank."

Edited July 16, 2023 by davidclt
Clarified L1-L3 charging

[DMann]

Well said David!  Adoption is fighting Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, all fostered by the fossil fuel companies that want to keep taking our money, environment be damned!

[nicholas]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44674723/porsche-ev-charging-lounge-germany/

Maybe I'm reading too far between the lines here but I feel like we're losing the plot.  Granted, I am not a big EV fan because they're boring, but I see the appeal for zipping around the city.  However, I feel like EVs are starting to get branded as the "responsible" replacement for ICEs so that you can keep driving everywhere but feel less guilty about it.  An electric car is still a car, and encompasses most of the things about a car-based lifestyle...obviously, cars do have their place and there need to be convenient recharging stations.  But there needs to be a balance; I think luxury EV charging destinations is starting to toe that line and will probably actually end up continuing to push a car-based lifestyle, which will negatively impact efforts to make cities more walkable as it will feel easier to rationalize driving when you're not burning gas everywhere.

Edited July 28, 2023 by nicholas

[SouthEndCLT811]

Another thread referencing Vinfast made me think to share this video about Taiwan's electric scooter brand that allows you to buy a scooter and subscribe to a battery network.  When the battery gets low you go to a station and just swap it out for a fresh one.

I wonder if conceptually this could work for auto companies like Vinfast or others way way way into the future.  Would development of solid state lithium batteries using less materials to get the same amount of mileage allow for cars to be built on a group of smaller, removable batteries?  Say you're on a road trip and don't want to stop for charging but are in range of one of these locations.  Pop out one or more removable batteries for a charged one(s) and get some amount of miles out of it before a charge or another swap is needed.  Obviously for others that live more remotely the car could still be charged at home etc..  Just fun to imagine the possibilities in this area

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-66470327

To get on present day EV topic, I opted out of my Rivian reservation I referenced on here about a yr ago.  Interest rates, cost of repairs some people are seeing ($30k for a fender bender?!) and others made it seem to "early" for me as someone who works at home and on average drives maybe no more than 30 miles on an average week. 

My wife and I opted instead for some ebikes which probably fit our lifestyle (both work at home) much more and have been great to use.  Besides the pop up summer rain storms even when you checked the weather forecast prior to leaving the house 

Edited August 18, 2023 by SouthEndCLT811

[CLT2014]

Charlotte ranked #33 among the top 50 metro areas for EV registrations. I'm not surprised we have a relatively low rank given this town's obsession with Jeep Wranglers and big SUVs and trucks. Numerous smaller metro areas outrank us from Oxnard-Ventura, CA; Sacramento, Honolulu, Salt Lake City, Tucson, Bridgeport, CT; Salt Lake City, and Austin. Still a huge lean towards the California market for EV use in general nationwide. There is a big cliff in registrations once you get outside of Southern California and the San Francisco Bay Area. Those two regions have the same amount of registrations as metros #6 - #30 combined. 

https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/bes...electric-cars/

Top 50 Metro Areas by Electric Vehicle Registrations:
1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim 230,940
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Berkeley 122,404
3 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara 73,810
4 New York-Newark-Jersey City70,943
5 San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad 51,616

6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria 43,183
7 Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler 42,049
8 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue 41,755
9 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario 40,232
10 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Alpharetta 36,051

11 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin 32,775
12 Sacramento-Roseville-Folsom 27,937
13 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro 27,525
14 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach 26,943
15 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington 18,769

16 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood 17,648
17 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn 16,910
18 Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington 15,736
19 Boston-Cambridge-Newton 15,511
20 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise 14,304

21 Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura 13,080
22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
23 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson 12,568
24 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk 11,724
25 Honolulu 10,539

26 Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater 10,401
27 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford 9,923
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082
29 Salt Lake City 7,822
30 Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown 7,582

31 Tucson 7,353
32 Hartford-East Hartford-Middletown 7,242
33 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia 6,858
34 St Louis 6,661
35 Raleigh-Cary 6,565

36 Nashville-Franklin-Murfreesboro 6,146
37 Columbus(OH) 6,093
38 Stockton 5,918
39 Fresno 5,481
40 Cincinnati 5,368

41 Pittsburgh 4,744
42 New Haven-Milford 4,675
43 Cleveland-Elyria 4,304
44 Ogden-Clearfield 4,289
45 Rochester(NY) 4,151

46 Jacksonville 4,064
47 Kansas City 4,040
48 Provo-Orem 3,876
49 Albany Schenectady-Troy 3,853
50 Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson 3,712

Edited August 22, 2023 by CLT2014

[nicholas]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:05 PM, CLT2014 said:

Charlotte ranked #33 among the top 50 metro areas for EV registrations. I'm not surprised we have a relatively low rank given this town's obsession with Jeep Wranglers and big SUVs and trucks. Numerous smaller metro areas outrank us from Oxnard-Ventura, CA; Sacramento, Honolulu, Salt Lake City, Tucson, Bridgeport, CT; Salt Lake City, and Austin. Still a huge lean towards the California market for EV use in general nationwide. There is a big cliff in registrations once you get outside of Southern California and the San Francisco Bay Area. Those two regions have the same amount of registrations as metros #6 - #30 combined.

Also worth noting that Charlotte has a massive sportscar/motorcycle scene that punches far above its weight.  By and large, car/bike enthusiasts prefer ICE-powered vehicles and are not going to spend $50k+ on a characterless EV when they could get a Corvette or Supra instead.  Plus all of the urban cowboys/cowgirls in their needlessly huge and modified-to-the-point-of-being-completely-useless brodozers and Broncos/Wranglers...