NEUHOFF PLANT DEVELOPMENT, 14 stories, 6-7 stories, 650,000 sq. ft. office, 175,000 sq. ft. retail, 550 apts, 50 hotel rooms, 2,000 car internal garage, $500+ million

[Nashvillain]

We have to give people viable alternatives to driving and actively discourage it. I think MLBrumby is right. If nothing changes, this development will bring a ton of personal vehicles to the area so we should tailor the streets to pedestrians, cycling, and transit and make it harder for people to park and drive

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

We have to give people viable alternatives to driving and actively discourage it. I think MLBrumby is right. If nothing changes, this development will bring a ton of personal vehicles to the area so we should tailor the streets to pedestrians, cycling, and transit and make it harder for people to park and drive

Two ways of thinking:  1. Give people what they want or ask for.  2. Give people what you want them to have, whether they want it or not…and maybe they’ll learn to like it.

I guess there’s three: 3. Find some kind of middle ground.

[smeagolsfree]

There is a 4th and that is what we have now.. Give people nothing!

[Nashvillain]

11 hours ago, titanhog said:

Two ways of thinking:  1. Give people what they want or ask for.  2. Give people what you want them to have, whether they want it or not…and maybe they’ll learn to like it.

I guess there’s three: 3. Find some kind of middle ground.

So then what is your middle ground solution? MLBrumby and Smeagols identified a problem. This development is going to bring a lot of new cars to the streets of Germantown which cannot be widened. Where will the cars go? They'll clog the already clogged streets of course. They'll be parked in the bike lanes (which they already are), on the greenway (yep, they're there, too), lining both streets turning two-way roads into one-ways (great traffic calming BTW), and overall making an ostensibly "walkable" neighborhood a lot less inviting or livable for the people who pay a premium to live there (because it's walkable) and the day trippers who want a reprieve from suburbia. 

Prioritizing the city for cars is policy. It is not the natural order of things. This policy, many of us can see, is not working very well. People all over the city are applying for traffic calming measures in their neighborhoods. Nashville is building out a bike lane network (half-assed and dangerous as it may be). Clearly, people who live here want and are asking for change. And, as we have identified, this development will introduce a problem that will need to be addressed--adding more cars that will not fit. I propose making it easier for people to choose not to drive. Making it safe to walk and bike. Making it easier for transit to move unencumbered through the streets. Removing surface and street parking to disincentivize adding more cars. Removing parking minimums in developments throughout the Urban Services Area. And BTW, these are pretty much the stated policy goals of the mayor's office (Nashville Vison Zero draft plan), NashvilleDOT, and various non-profit organizations in the city.

One last thing because I know it's important for people to drive because they want to; Removing a ton of vehicle traffic from the streets and roads will make it easier to drive!

 

Seems like a pretty "middle ground" solution to me but I'm curious what yours is

[Luvemtall]

Nashvillain, seems like in your case, you might want to consider moving to some old world European, bike crazy hamlet. The picture you paint , is more likely there . This is America, the land of self Indulgence, bigger the better, testestarone inspiring Automobiles !! It’s a great feeling, I could take you for a ride around town in my big badass RAM heavy duty with its great view high above the normal traffic. It’s a whole new perspective 

P.s remember I was a commercial driver for decades, I’ve driven 80 foot tractor trailers though New York City during rush hour. Nashville is cake compared to that!!

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Luvemtall

[Nashvillain]

Nah. Hopefully, sooner rather than later, Nashville will follow D.C.'s lead and jack up the registration fee for asinine vehicles like that

[Luvemtall]

Now let’s not get uncivil! I don’t say anything negative about bikes( although I dislike the idea ) my truck is my way of business, it’s how I get the job done. It’s brand new and 100 % paid in full on day of purchase. I’m just messing around with you , making light of some of the discussions. It’s all in fun, but to be honest Titanhog had the best idea . Find some kind of middle ground. Because honestly we will never have less cars or more bikes . It’s just facts , plain and simple 

[markhollin]

There is underground parking at Neuhoff being built for 2,000 cars, so they won't be parking on streets, alleys, or greenways. But, indeed, there will be more traffic getting to and from.   The hope is that with 550 residential units, a lot of the folks will also be working in the new office tower or other businesses within walking/biking distance (even across the future pedestrian bridge to Oracle/River North Landings). 

[Nashvillain]

25 minutes ago, markhollin said:

There is underground parking at Neuhoff being built for 2,000 cars, so they won't be parking on streets, alleys, or greenways. But, indeed, there will be more traffic getting to and from.   The hope is that with 550 residential units, a lot of the folks will also be working in the new office tower or other businesses within walking/biking distance (even across the future pedestrian bridge to Oracle/River North Landings). 

Those 2,000 cars will certainly present parking problems in other parts of the city.

Anyway, I'll take my act to Twitter for a while where my views will be reinforced in a comforting way. 

[Luvemtall]

 Yikes, I’m sorry if you feel this has been uncomfortable, I mean I was thinking it was just a friendly discussion. No bad feelings here. But if you honestly feel that somehow all the cars, trucks,busses and the interstates and freeways etc that supports them are magically going to disappear and our cities are navigated only by walking , biking and mass transit of a light rail etc . Then my friend your fooling yourself, although I’m not against any of those forms of transportation and applaud your efforts to promote them, it’s just not feasible to think that it will completely flip that way. Now we are progressing with electric power for said vehicles, which will help with cleaner cities, but honestly we will never be without them ( not in our lifetime) . 

[Nashvillain]

35 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

 Yikes, I’m sorry if you feel this has been uncomfortable, I mean I was thinking it was just a friendly discussion. No bad feelings here. But if you honestly feel that somehow all the cars, trucks,busses and the interstates and freeways etc that supports them are magically going to disappear and our cities are navigated only by walking , biking and mass transit of a light rail etc . Then my friend your fooling yourself, although I’m not against any of those forms of transportation and applaud your efforts to promote them, it’s just not feasible to think that it will completely flip that way. Now we are progressing with electric power for said vehicles, which will help with cleaner cities, but honestly we will never be without them ( not in our lifetime) . 

I was just making a joke about basking in the friendlier confines of bike and transit Twitter. You'll have to do a lot better if your intention is to run me off  . 

But having a friendly conversation with you, as you put it, is difficult because you never argue from the premises of my posts but instead attribute claims to me that I've never said. Like I feel somehow that all cars, trucks, busses (?) and the interstates are going to magically disappear. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion based on what I actually said. Nor is making fact-free, absolutist claims an argument style that leads anywhere: like "we will never be without them [personal vehicles]... ", and, "we will never have less cars or more bikes." So, end of discussion, right? You win? I think the intended conclusion of this type of argument is that we should do nothing. 

Also, I should be forgiven for assuming that your badass Dodge Ram is an asinine choice because I just used your words to arrive at that conclusion: "This is America, the land of self Indulgence, bigger the better, testestarone inspiring Automobiles !! It’s a great feeling, I could take you for a ride around town in my big badass RAM heavy duty with its great view high above the normal traffic. It’s a whole new perspective."

But yeah, you need it for "work." 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Nashvillain

[Luvemtall]

Wow , alright. Let’s move on, never intended to get to this . And yes I do need my truck for “work” as I am involved with a partnership that flips houses and builds commercial properties for small businesses. I daily transport heavy equipment ( skid steers , loaders etc) in the 25,000 to 30,000 lb range . Again , I’m sorry to offend you in anyway, forgive me. 

[titanhog]

4 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

So then what is your middle ground solution? MLBrumby and Smeagols identified a problem. This development is going to bring a lot of new cars to the streets of Germantown which cannot be widened. Where will the cars go? They'll clog the already clogged streets of course. They'll be parked in the bike lanes (which they already are), on the greenway (yep, they're there, too), lining both streets turning two-way roads into one-ways (great traffic calming BTW), and overall making an ostensibly "walkable" neighborhood a lot less inviting or livable for the people who pay a premium to live there (because it's walkable) and the day trippers who want a reprieve from suburbia. 

Prioritizing the city for cars is policy. It is not the natural order of things. This policy, many of us can see, is not working very well. People all over the city are applying for traffic calming measures in their neighborhoods. Nashville is building out a bike lane network (half-assed and dangerous as it may be). Clearly, people who live here want and are asking for change. And, as we have identified, this development will introduce a problem that will need to be addressed--adding more cars that will not fit. I propose making it easier for people to choose not to drive. Making it safe to walk and bike. Making it easier for transit to move unencumbered through the streets. Removing surface and street parking to disincentivize adding more cars. Removing parking minimums in developments throughout the Urban Services Area. And BTW, these are pretty much the stated policy goals of the mayor's office (Nashville Vison Zero draft plan), NashvilleDOT, and various non-profit organizations in the city.

One last thing because I know it's important for people to drive because they want to; Removing a ton of vehicle traffic from the streets and roads will make it easier to drive!

 

Seems like a pretty "middle ground" solution to me but I'm curious what yours is

I believe you may be making some assumptions on what you think I may mean by middle ground.  I’m not pointing fingers at anyone…nor am I speaking of what Nashville currently is.

More than once, I’ve seen cities shut down auto traffic in certain segments of their cities, totally killing businesses and going back to the old way.  So…we obviously shouldn’t do that.

I like the idea of certain avenues in the city being “downsized” to one lane with a median to slow down traffic.  I like some streets to allow no parking on street and would like more underground parking.  I’d like mass transit to give us an alternative.  

However…I also know you still have to provide people what they want.  People living in the downtown area aren’t the only ones who get to make that decision.  People who work there get a voice.  People who own businesses get a voice.  Tourists get a voice.  etc.  etc.  Each one contributes to what downtown is and will become…so there will always need to be some type of compromise.

In a perfect world, to me, the entire downtown area would be pedestrian only…but that would be terribly shortsighted of me if I got that wish because I think it would damage downtown more than help.  But that’s my utopian wish.

[Nashvillain]

4 minutes ago, titanhog said:

I believe you may be making some assumptions on what you think I may mean by middle ground.  I’m not pointing fingers at anyone…nor am I speaking of what Nashville currently is.

More than once, I’ve seen cities shut down auto traffic in certain segments of their cities, totally killing businesses and going back to the old way.  So…we obviously shouldn’t do that.

I like the idea of certain avenues in the city being “downsized” to one lane with a median to slow down traffic.  I like some streets to allow no parking on street and would like more underground parking.  I’d like mass transit to give us an alternative.  

However…I also know you still have to provide people what they want.  People living in the downtown area aren’t the only ones who get to make that decision.  People who work there get a voice.  People who own businesses get a voice.  Tourists get a voice.  etc.  etc.  Each one contributes to what downtown is and will become…so there will always need to be some type of compromise.

In a perfect world, to me, the entire downtown area would be pedestrian only…but that would be terribly shortsighted of me if I got that wish because I think it would damage downtown more than help.  But that’s my utopian wish.

I tried not to make any assumptions, which is why I asked what your suggestion would be while trying to articulate my own. 

I would be curious to know any examples of where cities shut down auto traffic, killed business, then reinstated car traffic.

I'm not sure what are the mechanisms you're suggesting for giving the people what they want. I think the people with the most stake in how Nashville develops, changes, or stays the same, are the citizens of Nashville who pay property taxes which is the largest funding source of the government, and who vote for the officials who run the government because their primary residence is Nashville/Davidson County and businesses which pay various taxes and fees to Metro as well.  And those aren't just downtown residents and businesses. I don't live downtown. But I don't think tourists or residents of other counties should have a voice in how things are run in Nashville. I wouldn't presume to think I have a voice in how things are run in Williamson County, for example, just because I go there occasionally to visit family and maybe shop at the biggest Best Buy in the area. I don't have a primary residence there and I don't vote in municipal elections there. 

I'm sure that the people's representatives, Metro Council and the mayor, take into account those different perspectives--businesses and tourists--as those will influence the success or failures of the policies the government implements, but they ultimately answer to the residents of the county because that's who puts them in office. 

[MontanaGuy]

21 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

We have to give people viable alternatives to driving and actively discourage it. I think MLBrumby is right. If nothing changes, this development will bring a ton of personal vehicles to the area so we should tailor the streets to pedestrians, cycling, and transit and make it harder for people to park and drive

My only complaint is that many people seem to want to make it harder for people to park and drive when there simply isn't any alternative at this point in time.  I've been seriously considering moving downtown to a highrise condo lately and I would need a parking space to do so.  I'm sure I wouldn't need my vehicle on a daily basis but there would be instances when I'd need to go somewhere such as a doctor's appointment and until we have mass transit I'll be relying on my car to get there.  There's a lot of us who support mass transit but still need to drive because we don't have it! 

[Nashvillain]

6 minutes ago, MontanaGuy said:

My only complaint is that many people seem to want to make it harder for people to park and drive when there simply isn't any alternative at this point in time.  I've been seriously considering moving downtown to a highrise condo lately and I would need a parking space to do so.  I'm sure I wouldn't need my vehicle on a daily basis but there would be instances when I'd need to go somewhere such as a doctor's appointment and until we have mass transit I'll be relying on my car to get there.  There's a lot of us who support mass transit but still need to drive because we don't have it! 

I think you'll be alright. As Markholin pointed out, this development includes 2000 spaces. I don't know of any development in Germantown that doesn't include parking. My point is, nothing changes until we actually change things. There won't be viable alternatives unless we create them and that won't happen unless we make space for alternatives. Which, due to the constraints of physical space, would entail the reduction of space for cars and the creation of space for people, bikes, and transit. But, as people keep pointing out, that won't happen overnight, or, like, magically. By which I mean that I think you'll be fine to move to Germantown and bring your car. 

Full disclosure: I own a car. So does my wife. We live in the world that is even though we'd like for it to be different

Edited July 17, 2022 by Nashvillain

[AlbiMayR]

37 minutes ago, Nashvillain said:

No. I'm still here and still engaging with him. Also, there is a difference between you're and your

I live in Nashville, I ride my bike to work. I do have a car but have only spent $72.00 in ~3 months because of this. I’m surprised people argue over bikes vs. cars. They both have a place but commuting without fossil fuels is quite practical. 

[Nashvillain]

5 minutes ago, MIRDY said:

It's not practical for people who don't want to be out riding a bicycle in the 100* heat, pouring rain or freezing temperatures. 

Ok, but nobody here is arguing that you HAVE to ride bikes. Are they? Nobody is saying that you CAN'T drive. Are they? It's amazing that people in other parts of the world are able to ride bikes or walk or take transit YEAR AROUND. They must be such strong, tolerant, and resilient people. Or maybe it's because they and their governments decided that transforming their built environments to make biking, walking, and transit possible, safe, comfortable, and practical, enabled citizens to have a CHOICE about how to navigate their towns and cities in a way that makes the most sense given the circumstances. As opposed to our situation where the ONLY thing that makes sense is driving 

[AlbiMayR]

13 minutes ago, MIRDY said:

It's not practical for people who don't want to be out riding a bicycle in the 100* heat, pouring rain or freezing temperatures. 

No it isn’t comfortable, but it is practical if your choice is fueling the car or food on the table. Sure I’d love to be in an air conditioned steel vehicle, but I also want my children to have fresh vegetables. I can drink water and wear a poncho, but I cannot make fuel or vegetables cheaper. How much do you spend on fuel vs. food? I choose my transportation in accordance with my living standards. 

[MIRDY]

1 minute ago, AlbiMayR said:

No it isn’t comfortable, but it is practical if your choice is fueling the car or food on the table. Sure I’d love to be in an air conditioned steel vehicle, but I also want my children to have fresh vegetables. I can drink water and wear a poncho, but I cannot make fuel or vegetables cheaper. How much do you spend on fuel vs. food? I choose my transportation in accordance with my living standards. 

I mean, if that's all you can afford then hats off to you for doing what you gotta do to make ends meet. 

[MontanaGuy]

2 minutes ago, Nashvillain said:

It's amazing that people in other parts of the world are able to ride bikes or walk or take transit YEAR AROUND.

I'm afraid that our terrible planning of American cities, which gets worse the further west you travel, is our dilemma.  European cities are compact and densely populated which is perfect for subways, rail lines and other kinds of mass transit.  To make matters worse we keep on  expanding outwards in cities like Phoenix so that we're more dependent on our vehicles than ever!  However, I was pleasantly surprised when I visited Seattle for a few days a week ago and saw how much they've expanded their rail lines across the area.  I lived there for 20 years and remember how we kept voting down new measures to get light rail started as our traffic got worse and worse.  Now it's quite impressive so if there's a will to make it happen it's still possible!    

[Nashvillain]

1 minute ago, MontanaGuy said:

I'm afraid that our terrible planning of American cities, which gets worse the further west you travel, is our dilemma.  European cities are compact and densely populated which is perfect for subways, rail lines and other kinds of mass transit.  To make matters worse we keep on  expanding outwards in cities like Phoenix so that we're more dependent on our vehicles than ever!  However, I was pleasantly surprised when I visited Seattle for a few days a week ago and saw how much they've expanded their rail lines across the area.  I lived there for 20 years and remember how we kept voting down new measures to get light rail started as our traffic got worse and worse.  Now it's quite impressive so if there's a will to make it happen it's still possible!    

Yes exactly. It is terrible planning. It's premised on the fallacy of limitless expansion, resources that never run out, and a climate that isn't reactive to human activity. And you're right, attitudes change and a city, like Seattle, can be transformed. Which is one hopeful model for Nashville

[titanhog]

8 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

I tried not to make any assumptions, which is why I asked what your suggestion would be while trying to articulate my own. 

I would be curious to know any examples of where cities shut down auto traffic, killed business, then reinstated car traffic.

I'm not sure what are the mechanisms you're suggesting for giving the people what they want. I think the people with the most stake in how Nashville develops, changes, or stays the same, are the citizens of Nashville who pay property taxes which is the largest funding source of the government, and who vote for the officials who run the government because their primary residence is Nashville/Davidson County and businesses which pay various taxes and fees to Metro as well.  And those aren't just downtown residents and businesses. I don't live downtown. But I don't think tourists or residents of other counties should have a voice in how things are run in Nashville. I wouldn't presume to think I have a voice in how things are run in Williamson County, for example, just because I go there occasionally to visit family and maybe shop at the biggest Best Buy in the area. I don't have a primary residence there and I don't vote in municipal elections there. 

I'm sure that the people's representatives, Metro Council and the mayor, take into account those different perspectives--businesses and tourists--as those will influence the success or failures of the policies the government implements, but they ultimately answer to the residents of the county because that's who puts them in office. 

When I say people have a voice…and A LOT of different people have a voice (including tourists)…I’m talking about the vitality of a city. 

Yes…if a neighborhood decides they want to build more streets…widen streets…shut down streets…that’s ultimately up to them.  However…let’s say it’s a business neighborhood that relies solely on auto traffic for the their customers…including parking.  It can have a detrimental effect.  You have the people in a locality that pay taxes who have the strongest voice…but there is also the voice of the “customer”…which directly effects those people in that locality.  It’s not as simple as someone just wishing they could create their vision of making an area better and it “working” for everyone involved.

In the 70’s and early 80’s, I know for a fact that segments of Little Rock and Memphis shut down certain areas near downtown to auto-traffic in an effort to build up a more pedestrian-friendly business district…and neither worked…thus, they reopened the streets.  This has happened in many cities.  Also…there have been areas where they’ve shut down auto traffic and made it pedestrian only and it worked.  So…it’s on a case by case basis.  Just like it would be great if a certain segment of Broadway was always shut down to pedestrians IMO…but then again, maybe that would harm the businesses?  Who knows for sure?  I would love for First Ave along the river be shut down and made into Paris-style cafes…with people waking about, picnic tables, fountains, etc.  However…I have a feeling the city will never fully shut down First Ave.

Also…consider a developer in Nashville building an apartment or condo building with no parking.  They want a truly urban building like you may find in NYC where people are used to not having a car readily available…and they’re hoping to cater to people like that here.  But….what if that segment barely exists yet in Nashville?  “Build and they will come” may not be feasible…yet.

Edited July 18, 2022 by titanhog

[markhollin]

As entertaining as some of the personal slams were, I've hidden them and their tangential responses because it just wasn't adding to any sort of meaningful discussion.  Listen, folks: if you've got a personal beef with someone, then PM them.   Work it out with them directly.  Thanks.  : )

Additionally: It seems we have more than beaten the parking/biking debate for Nuehoff to death.  Let's move on.  : )

[Luvemtall]

If I remember correctly, the property across the street that’s vacant was to have another tower (around the same 15 stories) and be connected with a enclosed walkway. Is that correct or was that a different proposal?