Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[baobabs727]

1 hour ago, vdogg said:

Obviously the voters in Richmond, for whatever reason, do not want a casino. Perhaps it’s time for local politicians there to move on. This does benefit us here locally though IF Headwaters ever gets off the ground.

Casino gambling in Richmond is officially dead for the foreseeable future.

Now their arena on the other hand....   (You know, since some folks seem to think that 100 miles is too close lmao) 

[EJ_LEWIS]

I wonder what was the reasons Richmond voters voted against the Casino?  Here in DC we voted down a casino a few year ago because there was concern about a casino exacerbating already unsustainable ills.  Did Richmond voters vote down the Casino for similar concerns?  Should Norfolk be concerned about some of the social ills made worse by a Casino?   

[vdogg]

3 hours ago, EJ_LEWIS said:

I wonder what was the reasons Richmond voters voted against the Casino?  Here in DC we voted down a casino a few year ago because there was concern about a casino exacerbating already unsustainable ills.  Did Richmond voters vote down the Casino for similar concerns?  Should Norfolk be concerned about some of the social ills made worse by a Casino?   

There's a Richmond thread where it seems like the casino developer said some exceptionally objectionable stuff about the local population in a live interview that seems to have sealed it's fate. Too bad, because the proposal itself was quite stunning, and something that I would love to have here instead of whatever it is the Pamunkey think they're building.

[Norva757]

I think we have to accept this is another project dead in the water or its going to be typical subpar crap we get. I think that with Amtrack and lightrail there this would a great development. I do worry that with the Tides being sold that it might have a huge potential to kill this development or the team leaving the region

[BFG]

Well the Tides new owner said they plan to stay in Norfolk, and it would look pretty crummy for the defending national champion to suddenly leave town, esp. when fan support was pretty decent this year. 

If the casino dies, I think it’ll be because the Pamunkey tribe simply didn’t deliver. 

[mintscraft56]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:37 PM, BFG said:

Well the Tides new owner said they plan to stay in Norfolk, and it would look pretty crummy for the defending national champion to suddenly leave town, esp. when fan support was pretty decent this year. 

If the casino dies, I think it’ll be because the Pamunkey tribe simply didn’t deliver. 

The tides, should they leave, would be horrible. We would litterly lose the sports team that represents Norfolk. I dont think we are totally understanding how much local identity is put into that team. Everything from the name to the merch they sell. Especially since they are national champions, it seems more people are talking about it. To top it off, they are triple A Minor League and they feed a major league team, the Orioles (Which happens to be my favorite). If the tides leave, then so does a piece of identity. 

Also, in my own opinion, a city needs some type of sports team. Something about it makes the city legit. 

[HRVT]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:37 PM, BFG said:

Well the Tides new owner said they plan to stay in Norfolk, and it would look pretty crummy for the defending national champion to suddenly leave town, esp. when fan support was pretty decent this year. 

If the casino dies, I think it’ll be because the Pamunkey tribe simply didn’t deliver. 

While there was still a team calling itself the Norfolk Admirals playing in the AHL the following year.... the Lightning's Admirals did exactly that after winning it all.

As for the Tides though, they arent going anywhere. This group owns several minor league franchises. If anything, once the casino dies (and I think that's the eventual fate here), I could see them spearheading a development themselves.

[Norva757]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:37 PM, BFG said:

Well the Tides new owner said they plan to stay in Norfolk, and it would look pretty crummy for the defending national champion to suddenly leave town, esp. when fan support was pretty decent this year. 

If the casino dies, I think it’ll be because the Pamunkey tribe simply didn’t deliver. 

NS signed a 5 year deal with the city of Norfolk knowing they weren’t going to stay. You can’t trust any of these companies 

[Norf Native]

On the 25 January, 2024 agenda...

New Business: 1. HEADWATERS RESORT & CASINO, for a Development Certificate at 200 Park Avenue. (Ward 4/Superward 7)

[vdogg]

There are some new renderings in the design review packet. Nothing much has changed with the design.

[Norf Native]

New renderings.  
 

 

[Norva757]

I actually like that

[HRVA]

Press coverage on the status of the casino:

Virginian Pilot

Virginia Business

“Of the 963,000 or so square feet of the planned casino and resort, about half is a parking deck with about 1,200 spaces. Another 45,000 square feet will be the main casino floor (eventually expanded to 65,000 square feet) and restaurants, including a 180-seat sports bar restaurant with 25 seats along a bar, a grab-and-go quick service restaurant, a food hall with three or four restaurant concepts and a steak and seafood restaurant. This would all be elevated — with some of the parking garage underneath, raising parts such as the casino floor — to accommodate views over the planned seawall. 

The 300-room hotel would have a rooftop pool facing the ballpark where the Triple-A Norfolk Tides baseball team plays and a 10,000 square-foot ballroom with 8,000 square feet of meeting space.“

The Pamunkey say they need to start construction in the spring in order to be open by November 2025, the 5-year anniversary of the referendum and their statutory deadline to obtain their gaming license. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by HRVA
Fixed link

[Ghentite]

1 hour ago, HRVA said:

 a grab-and-go quick service restaurant, a food hall with three or four restaurant concepts and a steak and seafood restaurant.

Why don't they just call this what it is?  Fast food (most likely a chain) and a food court similar to what Portsmouth has in their casino (gross) 

More importantly they don't want to pay for the marina, which was crucial in extending the esplanade from Waterside past Harbor Park.  That's a key element in developing the whole area.

They're still half-assing  it.  I'll pass. 

[baobabs727]

I just emailed all of City Council and urged them to scrap this deal and issue an RFP immediately. I think the Pamunkey have been playing chess, and it's now time for the Norfolk CC to call their bluff. Will they have the courage and exhibit the principled leadership necessary to do so??

 

YOU GUYS ARE MISSING SO MUCH.  

The 3000 slots have been SLASHED by 33.33%  to 2000 slots.

The 150 gaming table count has been SLASHED by 66.6667% to a mere 50 tables.

Where is the 2500 seat entertainment venue? Dead?

Final Casino floor size SLASHED by approx 30,000 sq feet! 

NO Marina means NO esplanade.

A Food Court? Where are the signature restaurants?

WHAT ELSE HAVE THEY CUT OUT...WHEN WILL WE FIND OUT???

HOW WILL THE PAMUNKEY BE ABLE TO MEET THEIR MINIMUM required SPEND $$$ ON THIS ONE?????  CLEARLY THIS IS NOT $500M. IS IT EVEN $300M???????? I DOUBT IT.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by baobabs727

[NFKjeff]

6 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I just emailed all of City Council and urged them to scrap this deal and issue and RFP immediately. I think the Pawmunkey have been playing chess, and it's now time for the Norfolk CC to call their bluff. Will they have the courage and exhibit the principled leadership necessary to do so??

 

YOU GUYS ARE MISSING SO MUCH.  

The 3000 slots have been SLASHED by 33.33%  to 2000 slots.

The 150 gaming table count has been SLASHED by 66.6667% to a mere 50 tables.

Where is the 2500 seat entertainment venue? Dead?

Final Casino floor size SLASHED by approx 30,000 sq feet! 

NO Marina means NO explanade.

A Food Court? Where are the signature restaurants?

WHAT ELSE HAVE THEY CUT OUT...WHEN WILL WE FIND OUT???

HOW WILL THE PAWMUNKEY BE ABLE TO MEET THEIR MINIMUM SPEND $$$ ON THIS ONE?????  CLEARLY THIS IS NOT $500M. IS IT EVEN $300M???????? I DOUBT IT.

 

 

 

 

What is a Pawmunkey?

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

What is a Pawmunkey?

Sorry, I dictated that to text, hence the myriad mistakes beyond the one you pointed out lol. I was in a rush and mad as a wet hen. 

[brikkman]

21 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I just emailed all of City Council and urged them to scrap this deal and issue an RFP immediately. I think the Pamunkey have been playing chess, and it's now time for the Norfolk CC to call their bluff. Will they have the courage and exhibit the principled leadership necessary to do so??

 

YOU GUYS ARE MISSING SO MUCH.  

The 3000 slots have been SLASHED by 33.33%  to 2000 slots.

The 150 gaming table count has been SLASHED by 66.6667% to a mere 50 tables.

Where is the 2500 seat entertainment venue? Dead?

Final Casino floor size SLASHED by approx 30,000 sq feet! 

NO Marina means NO esplanade.

A Food Court? Where are the signature restaurants?

WHAT ELSE HAVE THEY CUT OUT...WHEN WILL WE FIND OUT???

HOW WILL THE PAMUNKEY BE ABLE TO MEET THEIR MINIMUM required SPEND $$$ ON THIS ONE?????  CLEARLY THIS IS NOT $500M. IS IT EVEN $300M???????? I DOUBT IT.

 

 

 

 

WOW!

Wish I could I say I am shocked, but nope....... Par for the course in those parts.   Think Cordish is still sour?

[baobabs727]

11 hours ago, brikkman said:

WOW!

Wish I could I say I am shocked, but nope....... Par for the course in those parts.   Think Cordish is still sour?

I think that ship has sailed.  Too much bad blood.... But who knows with this bunch. 

[carolinaboy]

Some time ago I was poo-pooed when I said casiNO. Bad deal. Bad location. Bad operator. Bad decision by the city. Promised a Ferrari receiving a Yugo.

[HRVT]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:16 PM, carolinaboy said:

Some time ago I was poo-pooed when I said casiNO. Bad deal. Bad location. Bad operator. Bad decision by the city. Promised a Ferrari receiving a Yugo.

Yeah... I thought it was obvious that they would never deliver the grand plans that were initially laid out. That beautiful high rise on the water just seemed too pie in the sky. Especially with Portsmouth also getting a casino (and getting it done fairly quickly to boot). Once those initial plans were fairly quickly scaled down to what looked like a mid-rise, it was time to get skeptical but they simply continue to take a chisel to what they're promising.

Time to get out of this deal.

[ONCE1stBlvd]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:27 AM, HRVT said:

Yeah... I thought it was obvious that they would never deliver the grand plans that were initially laid out. That beautiful high rise on the water just seemed too pie in the sky. Especially with Portsmouth also getting a casino (and getting it done fairly quickly to boot). Once those initial plans were fairly quickly scaled down to what looked like a mid-rise, it was time to get skeptical but they simply continue to take a chisel to what they're promising.

Time to get out of this deal.

No no no. Not "get out" deal. Stay in and renegotiate!  Norfolk could gain so much. If Norfolk pulls out it'll have to start over with another novel idea. Norfolk could do both!  Present a new idea while keeping the casino on. 

[HRVT]

19 hours ago, ONCE1stBlvd said:

No no no. Not "get out" deal. Stay in and renegotiate!  Norfolk could gain so much. If Norfolk pulls out it'll have to start over with another novel idea. Norfolk could do both!  Present a new idea while keeping the casino on. 

Stay in and renegotiate? Isn't that largely what just happened (their proposal was rejected and they were told to come back with something better) and they came back with an even worse proposal? These folks either don't know what they're doing or are pulling a classic bait and switch. Even if much of what had been there before came back, who's to say it doesn't go away again late? 

Edited December 29, 2023 by HRVT

[ONCE1stBlvd]

7 hours ago, HRVT said:

Stay in and renegotiate? Isn't that largely what just happened (their proposal was rejected and they were told to come back with something better) and they came back with an even worse proposal? These folks either don't know what they're doing or are pulling a classic bait and switch. Even if much of what had been there before came back, who's to say it doesn't go away again late? 

Fair enough. The reason I like the idea of keeping it on the table is that it'll draw attention to the potential. Even if the plan falls through it'll keep the interest in what was to be gained and not so much on what was never gonna be. Ya know?

[HRVT]

10 hours ago, ONCE1stBlvd said:

Fair enough. The reason I like the idea of keeping it on the table is that it'll draw attention to the potential. Even if the plan falls through it'll keep the interest in what was to be gained and not so much on what was never gonna be. Ya know?

I get what you're saying.  But they need to show good faith and competence. I don't think Rivers 2.0 does much to move the needle.

Admittedly, I've long been on record saying I think the casino market is getting oversaturated quick. Hampton Roads would have been much better off with one destination casino rather than 2 Rivers-level casinos.